On July 22 2011 23:15 Durak wrote: Obviously the better you get the better you are at predicting outcomes but there are so many factors that often times your idea is as good as mine. The main thing is to be aware all the time and watch your team as closely as your enemies.
??? You'd be surprised how little fact is in that claim. It's not about predicting outcomes, it's about predicting options and when said options become no longer effective options is how people should approach team fights.
An option is determined effective if it's outcome is good. That's exactly the same thing.
No, it's not. Options are independent of the outcome. The reason 2009 says you can't predict the outcomes is because the options aren't set in stone because order matters. Thinking of outcomes is completely pointless because that's not what should be going through your head first when analyzing a situation. Why? Because it leads to shitty pigeonholing of situations based on experience.
The basic examples of this are the solo Viper and Huskar players who have no clue what to do when their orb-walk harassed gets blown the fuck up. Tell me what you would rather consider first, the outcome of your orb-walk or what options you have from orb-walking or not orb-walking.
Edit:
Should clarify that last sentence as in what options you have period as a X hero player not some outcome based on experience.
You are over-analyzing my comment due to assumptions. I still think we're saying the same thing and you're being unnecessarily argumentative, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Your example is a false dichotomy. "What would you rather consider first..." I think that you should consider both your options and their outcomes before making a decision. My last sentence, "The main thing is to be aware all the time and watch your team as closely as your enemies." states the need for awareness of current and potential options. However, you're evaluating these options based on predicted outcomes, which is why there's really no need to separate the two.
On July 22 2011 03:02 hideo wrote: New subbed 2009 commentary released!
Ehome vs LGD @ SMM '10
finally real commentating instead of the doublebad tobi + kellymilkies
Haha wow. Chinese commentary's on a completely different level just like Korean BW commentary was. Really superb both on the analytical side as well as presentation.
closest thing to day[9] dailies but 2009 is better at dota than day[9] is at bw and sc2.
you do realise day9 was like USA WCG champion and shit, right? : )
finally real commentating instead of the doublebad tobi + kellymilkies
Haha wow. Chinese commentary's on a completely different level just like Korean BW commentary was. Really superb both on the analytical side as well as presentation.
closest thing to day[9] dailies but 2009 is better at dota than day[9] is at bw and sc2.
you do realise day9 was like USA WCG champion and shit, right? : )
On a global competitive level thats not that impressive. Of course the situation with Korea and outside Korea is unique to BW, and if you exclude the koreans he would do much, much better, but, while I don't actually know who 2009 is because I haven't followed the Dota scene in ages, I assume he is or was a progamer on the strongest scene in the world, China.
If that's the case, with no offense to Day9, the quote makes sense, even if it may be a little misleading because there isn't such a huge gap between scenes like SC. I take it means the same as an ex-BW pro comentating.
finally real commentating instead of the doublebad tobi + kellymilkies
Haha wow. Chinese commentary's on a completely different level just like Korean BW commentary was. Really superb both on the analytical side as well as presentation.
closest thing to day[9] dailies but 2009 is better at dota than day[9] is at bw and sc2.
you do realise day9 was like USA WCG champion and shit, right? : )
yes? maybe you should check 2009's accomplishments out.
finally real commentating instead of the doublebad tobi + kellymilkies
Haha wow. Chinese commentary's on a completely different level just like Korean BW commentary was. Really superb both on the analytical side as well as presentation.
closest thing to day[9] dailies but 2009 is better at dota than day[9] is at bw and sc2.
you do realise day9 was like USA WCG champion and shit, right? : )
yes? maybe you should check 2009's accomplishments out.
2009, was a member of EHOME while winning/placing in a number of tournaments formed and was the captain FTD, which became LGD, while winning more than ten Chinese and several international tournaments is currently a manager/coach of WE, also won several "mid solo" tournaments
an analogy to make of 2009's position in the Dota Scene would be somebody of say, Nal_Ra's calibre in SCBW
I have been playing this game off and on for about 6 months now and I dont get it. The community is complete crap and people just let themselves get farmed and wont concede such a waste of time. Im not great but shit my MMA cant be 1300 because of me completely. Sure go ahead troll me but how to people actually improve rating when they get shit teams all day?
On July 23 2011 13:09 thane wrote: I have been playing this game off and on for about 6 months now and I dont get it. The community is complete crap and people just let themselves get farmed and wont concede such a waste of time. Im not great but shit my MMA cant be 1300 because of me completely. Sure go ahead troll me but how to people actually improve rating when they get shit teams all day?
Get some friends to play with, makes the game so much better.
On July 23 2011 13:09 thane wrote: I have been playing this game off and on for about 6 months now and I dont get it. The community is complete crap and people just let themselves get farmed and wont concede such a waste of time. Im not great but shit my MMA cant be 1300 because of me completely. Sure go ahead troll me but how to people actually improve rating when they get shit teams all day?
Get some friends to play with, makes the game so much better.
lol I dont have any friends that play anything but xbox live or I would.
Quick question, why is everyone so crazy about n0tail? Like, I can totally understand the lack of a figure to worship with chu quitting and the SK/EG debacle, but is there a reason why people like sneyking and era aren't worshipped as heavily?
he is on msi (=best team) & very few people actually understand how hon works - he is very good, but the worshipping is more based on popularity than player skill. sney is not as good as testie/era/notail, era only recently started streaming (popularity boost!) and testie only dicks around with 1600s because he doesnt want to adapt to the current metagame. if kd wins vs msi today you can expect a whole new wave of fanboys following era, but in the end it really doesnt matter. the only real "legend" of hon was chu, and until people get as dominant as him again all people are doing is hopping the fan bandwagon, which is fine, just not something i think people should care about.
On July 23 2011 13:09 thane wrote: I have been playing this game off and on for about 6 months now and I dont get it. The community is complete crap and people just let themselves get farmed and wont concede such a waste of time. Im not great but shit my MMA cant be 1300 because of me completely. Sure go ahead troll me but how to people actually improve rating when they get shit teams all day?
Get some friends to play with, makes the game so much better.
lol I dont have any friends that play anything but xbox live or I would.
Try joining one of the channels in the first post, you might find some guys there
On July 23 2011 21:29 r33k wrote: Quick question, why is everyone so crazy about n0tail? Like, I can totally understand the lack of a figure to worship with chu quitting and the SK/EG debacle, but is there a reason why people like sneyking and era aren't worshipped as heavily?
Well, Maybe because he is kind of one of the best if not the best mid player of the world. Also, many people watch Honcast and Breaky is known for being biased tower Fnatic and people are easily influenced by caster.
(concerning Sneyking, just his voice makes me don't like him but tha't just me )
On July 22 2011 23:15 Durak wrote: Obviously the better you get the better you are at predicting outcomes but there are so many factors that often times your idea is as good as mine. The main thing is to be aware all the time and watch your team as closely as your enemies.
??? You'd be surprised how little fact is in that claim. It's not about predicting outcomes, it's about predicting options and when said options become no longer effective options is how people should approach team fights.
An option is determined effective if it's outcome is good. That's exactly the same thing.
No, it's not. Options are independent of the outcome. The reason 2009 says you can't predict the outcomes is because the options aren't set in stone because order matters. Thinking of outcomes is completely pointless because that's not what should be going through your head first when analyzing a situation. Why? Because it leads to shitty pigeonholing of situations based on experience.
The basic examples of this are the solo Viper and Huskar players who have no clue what to do when their orb-walk harassed gets blown the fuck up. Tell me what you would rather consider first, the outcome of your orb-walk or what options you have from orb-walking or not orb-walking.
Edit:
Should clarify that last sentence as in what options you have period as a X hero player not some outcome based on experience.
You are over-analyzing my comment due to assumptions. I still think we're saying the same thing and you're being unnecessarily argumentative, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Your example is a false dichotomy. "What would you rather consider first..." I think that you should consider both your options and their outcomes before making a decision. My last sentence, "The main thing is to be aware all the time and watch your team as closely as your enemies." states the need for awareness of current and potential options. However, you're evaluating these options based on predicted outcomes, which is why there's really no need to separate the two.
Except the difference between predicting outcomes and options is very important. Let me give you another example, when there's a team fight going down, I am not considering how a fight SHOULD come out at all and but rather how I can steer a fight towards a favorable outcome for my team. It's similar, but the difference is important, because like in the orb-walk example, if you think of outcomes/consequences first, then you're not prepared for deviations at all. The difference between [I am doing X in order to do Y ] versus [I am doing X to keep Y open and/or to squash an enemy's Z].
How things SHOULD go down rather than how things WILL go down is a rather important distinction. The two will overlap at times like you said, but I am trying to stress the difference and why predicting shit isn't all that important or useful. Because DotA is one of those games where experience is a very sharp double-edged sword, outcomes based on experience will backfire for you at all levels of play and the real message 2009 was sending when he said that DotA is too complex to predict.
You're far better off considering options first before predicting outcomes and the order matters. Goal-oriented thinking isn't too useful in tight games and only really useful in the first like 5 minutes of a game where you need to be aware of general flow of the particular game. This is why players like Vigoss, Traveka, Ezy, Loda and other former great players couldn't do shit when they came back while players like Fear, NS, Light stay relevant on any team and any version.
EPT
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