[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 1219

On March 29 2011 02:52 Wala.Revolution wrote:
o.o I can't believe that works.

On March 29 2011 03:27 Durak wrote:

Works with SS too. "Standing on my tp icon? TOO BAD IT'S ME 0 CAST TIME SS ULT"

Bug's been around since beta I think. I'm not sure why it hasn't been fixed but I reported it.

On March 29 2011 03:27 Durak wrote:

Works with SS too. "Standing on my tp icon? TOO BAD IT'S ME 0 CAST TIME SS ULT"

Bug's been around since beta I think. I'm not sure why it hasn't been fixed but I reported it.

On March 28 2011 19:42 Heen wrote:
So we played some banning pick (-cm) mode with gucci, dev, footlongsub and sunye and I was too busy playing to articulate myself well enough so I decided to make a post instead.

I noticed that, in HoN, people are less comfortable with letting a 0 survivability hero (ex. defiler) solo the long lane. I think this has a lot to do with the mindset of trying to do decently in all three lanes and nobody wants to take the burden of being solo level 4 ten minutes into the game. There was a time when I had this dilemma too but I slowly leaned toward focusing on 'winning' 2 lanes.

When I scrim in DotA and assign lanes, there's a lot of factors that comes into play but I can't explain it step-by-step, logically. I just know, so this is going to get a bit messy to explain.

The way I see it, tri-lane vs tri-lane (if matched up) is the most important matchup in the early phase. It's the hardest to master since there are so many variables (most deadly if you fuck up just a bit, that could mean harassing 1/10th screen length too forward) and if something goes wrong (very possible even with experienced players), you are not going to come back from it easily.

Whereas, 1v1, with less variables the outcome is more accurately predictable. Which is why I want my tri-lane to have the extra edge of going to the safe lane unless the tri vs tri matchup is more than 6:4 in our favor. The other obvious advantage of trilaning your safelane is that you can defend your tower on the jungle-side for a longer time usually, which obviously means your jungle stays safer for a longer period. And in sentinel/legion's case, it's extremely rewarding if you keep it alive for 30+ minute for potential roshan/kong wars later on.

My focus when I captain in scrims is mid game mostly and I like stability. You can never be certain how your opponents are going to assign their lanes so I like assigning ours the way I think is ideal and being ready with an answer for each scenario. You should always be open to the possibility that they won't lane the way you predicted but you shouldn't be surprised into a '??? what should we do?' mode if they don't either.

When I see a flint tri-lane, I usually think short lane. Why? Because he's pretty dependent on tower hugging, and I don't see him as a good hero for aggression, positioning of his partners have to be especially good on the long lane. He should be played more as... anti-aggression. But it's not just the laning phase that bothers me. You have to setup trilanes with how it's going to play out mid game (which I'll go into later).

People have this misconception that you should meet up their trilane if they have a harder carry or your lane is slightly stronger. That might be the right decision in many cases but that's oversimplifying things.

I don't blindly send my necrolyte trilane to meet their medusa trilane on the long lane even though ours might have a slight edge in terms of laning power.

1. If they meet us in our short lane, we'll have the slight edge which is always comforting to know in a 3v3
2. If they avoid us and decide to 3v1 two lanes, we have an advantage.

What do I mean by number 2? Normally in a 3v1 lane on the shit side for the solo, the carry on the trilane will hit lvl 3 or 4 while the solo stays at lvl 1. More disciplined teams can widen the gap with proper lane control and pulling creeps at the right time. So what happens after this carry player gets freefarm for 4-5 minutes and slaps on a ring of basilius + power treads? He's free to zone out the piss poor solo and free farm the shit out of the lane until the other team takes measures. And if possible, your support pulls creeps once and you go for their tower with 2 creep waves + RoB on. You clear creeps in 4-5 seconds while theyre underleveled solo has no AoE to clear your creeps. Mission accomplished, no worries of tp ganks, a huge bonus for your team (especially supports who've been getting 0 cs) and you are still free to continue your free farm.

This is why I liked running necrolyte tri lane. He can clear creeps fast (therefore farm at insane speeds), and while he's a weak solo hero in general, he is a complete nightmare to lane against if you're underleveled AND he scales well all game. The last part is important. Medusa as ricey as she is, isn't much of a threat early on. Her buildup to linken's is inefficient, she's worse at pushing towers and she farms slower (I guess this part might be debatable). This is why I said to dev, that we should try playing more macro-based 14 CC vs 3 hatch before pool type of games lol.

Razr is a extremely popular, powerful trilane hero for pretty much the same reason. Has similar traits to necrolyte (pretty shitty solo etc), except his plasma field is ridiculously strong on top of his other 2 gay skills so he's more popular.

So when there's two lanes of 3v1, I see it as a race to
- get our carry to a comfortable level to dominate the lane by himself
- take down their tower (or towers)
- get our support richer than theirs by pulling creeps smarter

Like I said earlier, I like stability so I actually enjoy it the most when the lanes are matched up this way. But if the other team insists on meeting us on our safe lane, they're welcome to try since we have the slight edge + they're much more susceptible to ganks by our mid solo.

Now, the second point I wanted to talk about is lane management (at least that's what our team calls it in Korean). So back when FTD won SMM and the chinese 2 supports 3 structure became popular, I thought about why it was so strong and took what I could to apply to our team. People were complaining about the finals match having a score of 4:4 thirty minutes into the game and it being a typical asian farmfest. People were whining about how they miss the good ol' 48b days of glorious blink dagger fests. I personally didn't give a shit if it was boring or not lol. I just watched replays so our team could get better.

In theory, the higher the level of play, the less efficient ganking becomes. You have people of better map awareness, reflexes, warding etc. Ganking requires resources: time and gold (TP or time spent not farming or gaining exp). So any time a gank fails, the other team's getting points. This might be not as apparent because nobody's dying but this is the reason your fail supports who've watched some pro replays and try to imitiate them are lvl 4-5 while the other team's are 6. Then there's also the very real chance that they're ready for it and setup a counter gank in which case you're triple fucked.

We started using this tactic around 1.5 years ago. This was when vanguard was broken as shit so ganking a razor with 2 half-assed support was a laughable attempt, so keep in mind that it was easier/safer to do this back then. Basically, instead of ganking (which isn't to say we didn't gank at all -_-), you farm/push lanes in a way that allows you to predict the other team's movements. If you march up to their towers with 4 people, you can expect 3+. You do a head count and make decisions based on that and the 1 guy on your team can farm/push an appropriate level of comfort knowing that. It's sort of like multiple MM drops and mutalisk harassment in SC2. You might not win head-on but they sure as hell can't say 'fuck it' and rush your base.

Another example would be to fake a push on their tier 3 tower while the other 2 lanes are slowly approaching your towers. Confirm that all 5 of the opposing team gathered to defend -> TP back, farm 2 lanes safely, your supporters free to ward/counterward in places they otherwise wouldn't have dared -> profit.

I found beastmaster to be perfect for this role. He gives vision wherever you want without risking your supports running into potential danger zones and is a pretty decent hero for pushing and even defending. Most of all, he allowed your team to choose fights carefully and let you make decisions as you see things. This was important because our goal was to gain an advatange slowly and steadily. One bad team fight could take away the advantage we built up to that point.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that simply ganking isn't the only way to take initiative. If you can predict the other team's movement, and even better control it, you don't need to gank because your team will always be doing things more efficiently. They'll come to you. You'll know it and you'll be ready for it. The same way if your trilane is faring better against their solo (tower down vs tower still at half hp, your solo lvl > their solo lvl) they'll feel obligated to send support, weakening their carry's comfort level.

Since we got used to this asian ricing faggotry, instead of our solo asking for ganks because he can't even leave the tower to leech exp, he'll often say push faster to the people on the other side of the map.

Every team should find its own style but since I asked why we never try hard ganking lineups and the answer was 'never works for us' maybe this could work better than our current style which is... hrmm... confused?

I agree that I'm kind of uncomfortable laning with someone like deflier against their solo in their short lane just because I have no escape mechanism but I am all for soloing against their tri lane anytime. I guess we can try running these strategies more where we put a non blink hero against their short lane. But that also means our gankers are heavily important to the early game and need to make kills happen. Like last night, the game with our tri stun (valk/hammer/witch), the kills didnt happen until 7 minutes after, I didnt expect much just because how passive the other team was playing but roaming and what you said Heen about the "missing" that could influence their judgement. It also didnt help because they had a Lego in the jungle but I think if we run it against a standard team that goes a normal line up we should be fine.

Heen why did you ask for advice on team play if you already knew all this stuff X___x

If you make a post on small number skirmishes and teamfight tactics there will be nothing left to contribute... though I can't imagine its all the same as in dota.

How are you lately? Done with school? ;D

i guess our "style" (not really a style, but w/e) before you came was focused on lane domination in the solo lanes --> abuse map control and out carry opponents (with tp counterganks if they try to gank us). i guess we tend to run the trilane top (if we have a ranged carry) because it makes it easier for the two supports in the trilane to have presence @ mid early game and protect top rune.

this is why defiler solo top just seems like a terrible idea to me still (if we're going to have a squishy solo top, shouldn't we at least make it someone who can potentially get kills or stun --> escape? eg. that fa solo bot who raped kelly's aluna and proceeded to push bot tower mega fast). i'm down for trying out different strats though and i like the depth of thinking in your lineups so i'm looking forward to being convinced otherwise.

On March 29 2011 09:40 SK.Testie wrote:
Heen would you be interested in being vouched for HoN IHL?
It has some annoying members but it also has rules to warn and prevent these annoying members from being too annoying.

On March 29 2011 10:01 Shinbi wrote:



Worst fucking blacksmith ever; just ruining every fucking thing and stunning bears instead of heroes since 1544.

On March 29 2011 10:07 Etherone wrote:

HEY GUYS LET ME TP IN AFTER YOU USED YOUR SKILLS, and then do nothing.
scrub

On March 29 2011 10:43 GazeRocker wrote:
GUYS I NEED HELP ON A DATE THAT IM ABOUT TO GO ON

I need some suggestions as to how to spice up a dinner im gonna have with her outside T_T...

Please help. Mod do not ban this post. This is serious business. Testie plz help.

HELP

On March 29 2011 10:43 GazeRocker wrote:
GUYS I NEED HELP ON A DATE THAT IM ABOUT TO GO ON

I need some suggestions as to how to spice up a dinner im gonna have with her outside T_T...

Please help. Mod do not ban this post. This is serious business. Testie plz help.

HELP

On March 29 2011 10:47 JeeJee wrote:


get her some maple syrup and a hockey stick when you're outside your igloo, and make sure to chase away the polar bears and she'll be all yours

weird canucks
any brahs in LA? i shall be leaving USA Jr shortly !!!!

On March 29 2011 10:43 GazeRocker wrote:
GUYS I NEED HELP ON A DATE THAT IM ABOUT TO GO ON

I need some suggestions as to how to spice up a dinner im gonna have with her outside T_T...

Please help. Mod do not ban this post. This is serious business. Testie plz help.

HELP

On March 29 2011 10:55 Nitrogen wrote:
dinner isnt good without food from what i've heard