EPTI don't want to quote my post again, really.
Red flag after red flag.
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 83
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Nirli
Bulgaria370 Posts
I don't want to quote my post again, really. Red flag after red flag. | ||
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cha0
Canada504 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1auo7wx/comment/kr5djlf/ Main part being "Stormgate is fully funded to get us to our Early Access release. To this date, we have invested almost the entirety of our funding into the development of the game. For marketing, we've been relying on word of mouth and sharing our progress with the RTS community to grow public awareness of Stormgate. This campaign is targeted at raising additional funds to support publishing efforts for our upcoming release as well as ongoing development. We have a long road ahead, after all, and plenty of work left to do before our official launch in the future." Basically they have funds for the EA release this summer but as of right now no further funding to continue development after that. Edit: Jimmy probably got the biggest "I told you so" shit-eating grin on his face right now | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria370 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
When did FG start using "triple A" as part of their official messaging marketing and when did it stop? I definitely remember it being a thing early on, but it's quietly been phased out of. | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On February 20 2024 05:23 cha0 wrote: Context on Nirli's post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1auo7wx/comment/kr5djlf/ Main part being "Stormgate is fully funded to get us to our Early Access release. To this date, we have invested almost the entirety of our funding into the development of the game. For marketing, we've been relying on word of mouth and sharing our progress with the RTS community to grow public awareness of Stormgate. This campaign is targeted at raising additional funds to support publishing efforts for our upcoming release as well as ongoing development. We have a long road ahead, after all, and plenty of work left to do before our official launch in the future." Basically they have funds for the EA release this summer but as of right now no further funding to continue development after that. Edit: Jimmy probably got the biggest "I told you so" shit-eating grin on his face right now uh-oh! I wonder if they were better off a few years ago positioning this to get sold to a publisher rather than to the public? Or more likely that was the original plan and this is plan B? | ||
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iamperfection
United States9642 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
On February 20 2024 06:50 Waxangel wrote: Some optional homework for our favorite poster JimmyJ: When did FG start using "triple A" as part of their official messaging marketing and when did it stop? I definitely remember it being a thing early on, but it's quietly been phased out of. I will do some digging. As a side note: i saw your interview from a year ago by Starcraft Historian. You seem really cool to me. I wish no ill will when i provide a pessimistic projection... just calling it like i see it. Please note, I'm very optimistic and positive in many areas where many posters on here are very negative. On February 20 2024 05:23 cha0 wrote: Context on Nirli's post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1auo7wx/comment/kr5djlf/ Main part being "Stormgate is fully funded to get us to our Early Access release. To this date, we have invested almost the entirety of our funding into the development of the game. For marketing, we've been relying on word of mouth and sharing our progress with the RTS community to grow public awareness of Stormgate. This campaign is targeted at raising additional funds to support publishing efforts for our upcoming release as well as ongoing development. We have a long road ahead, after all, and plenty of work left to do before our official launch in the future." Basically they have funds for the EA release this summer but as of right now no further funding to continue development after that. Edit: Jimmy probably got the biggest "I told you so" shit-eating grin on his face right now i'd prefer to just have great RTS games; i say this stuff i say to protect the RTS fans hoping against logic for the next great RTS. this is from their web site. https://playstormgate.com/news/frost-giant-studios-invites-supporters-to-become-investors At this point, I do not think its much of a leap to speculate they are having money issues. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
We are an independent studio with nearly $35M raised. Am I wrong but $35M seems like a lot raised for a new studio? It should be possible to launch a good game. And honestly what they accomplished so far in less than 3 years is pretty good. So what went wrong? Did they spend excessively? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
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Spirral
62 Posts
On February 20 2024 07:19 Hider wrote: Am I wrong but $35M seems like a lot raised for a new studio? It should be possible to launch a good game. And honestly what they accomplished so far in less than 3 years is pretty good. So what went wrong? Did they spend excessively? Do we know how big is the company? I mean not only the engineering team but overall, is it more or less than 50 people? | ||
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teapot_
39 Posts
On February 20 2024 07:19 Hider wrote: Am I wrong but $35M seems like a lot raised for a new studio? It should be possible to launch a good game. And honestly what they accomplished so far in less than 3 years is pretty good. So what went wrong? Did they spend excessively? Doing some quick math. Assuming average employee costs are 10K per month, that adds up to 4Million over 40 months. I get that there are a lot of other expenses, but??? 35 million? For an early startup the majority should go into employee salaries. There are more than 10 employees? They are prob spending upwards of half a million per month. The Kickstarter money will sustain them for another quarter... Also, 3y is kinda long for the current state of the game. They probably haven't started implementing actual campaign missions (given that the units are still so much in flux) which should be their way to make money if I understand correctly. With no cash influx from the 'real' release in sight, they are exploring other avenues... | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
On February 20 2024 07:37 Spirral wrote: Do we know how big is the company? I mean not only the engineering team but overall, is it more or less than 50 people? How many employees are usually hired to startup game devs before they release a game? Is 50+ people normal? I would have expected way less. | ||
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Spirral
62 Posts
On February 20 2024 07:48 Hider wrote: How many employees are usually hired to startup game devs before they release a game? Is 50+ people normal? I would have expected way less. No idea really, but they were promissing an AAA game at some point, so who knows how their initial spending looked like? I did some lazy Google search and it told me 55 people, which sounds bit too much from what we've seen about FG, but if it's true then 35 million over 4 years is not THAT much really. It may be a lot for a small indie studio, but not sure about FG team size. | ||
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cha0
Canada504 Posts
Also have to laugh when reading this: "For marketing, we've been relying on word of mouth and sharing our progress with the RTS community to grow public awareness of Stormgate." when this happened: https://frostgiant.com/press-releases-2/ Getting Simu to present the trailer at GameAwards surely cost quite a bit as well. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
On February 20 2024 07:53 Spirral wrote: No idea really, but they were promissing an AAA game at some point, so who knows how their initial spending looked like? I did some lazy Google search and it told me 55 people, which sounds bit too much from what we've seen about FG, but if it's true then 35 million over 4 years is not THAT much really. It may be a lot for a small indie studio, but not sure about FG team size. I guess they must have planned out crazy expenses when VC's were more willing to invest and thought they could get further funding easily. It doesn't make sense to invest 10s of millions in a game when you have no proof of concept that you can attract a larger audience. Rather, keep costs low until we have some type of evidence that this is the case. I also think trying to develop everything at once, campaign, co-op, 3v3, 1v1 etc is way too ambitious. Keep it focused and try to nail just one game-mode initially. Ideally for the first few years, it's just a couple of devs with a clear vision on how to obtain the desired vision working at less than $500K in annual expenses. And they keep doing that until the proof of concept is established before seeking series A. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
Then when the criticisms of the game start rolling in, we'll get hit with "game is in early access and not ready yet." Yea I've seen this pattern a LOT over the past few years with various games in different genres. | ||
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Spirral
62 Posts
On February 20 2024 08:20 Hider wrote: I guess they must have planned out crazy expenses when VC's were more willing to invest and thought they could get further funding easily. It doesn't make sense to invest 10s of millions in a game when you have no proof of concept that you can attract a larger audience. Rather, keep costs low until we have some type of evidence that this is the case. I also think trying to develop everything at once, campaign, co-op, 3v3, 1v1 etc is way too ambitious. Keep it focused and try to nail just one game-mode initially. Ideally for the first few years, it's just a couple of devs with a clear vision on how to obtain the desired vision working at less than $500K in annual expenses. And they keep doing that until the proof of concept is established before seeking series A. I am not well informed on US salaries nor tech companies expenses by any means, but based on hearsay, 500K in annual expenses for a California based office like FG, sounds enough maybe for two engineer salaries and office rent? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25328 Posts
Something feels increasingly a bit off, I’m just unsure where the fuckery is coming from really. I think the most charitable reading is that some investment bailed, either deliberately, or just not having the requisite funds. Something unfortunate that isn’t necessarily Frost Giant’s fault as such I try to go by Hanlon’s Razor unless I see compelling evidence to the contrary. At the uncharitable end, Frost Giant never had those kind of funding guarantees, but communication to those interested in the project made out that it was fully funded, and contribution to a Kick Starter was for a little extra dough and bonus features for a game that would eventually launch reasonably feature-complete. I feel the system is abused with slop at times, but I’ve no innate problem with the ‘get something releasable on early access and get some cash to further develop’ model. Some great games have emerged from that pipeline. I do on the other hand find the mixed messaging and retcons coming from Giant of Frost to be at least somewhat concerning. I am ignorant as to the economics of producing a game, and how far the purported funding can be expected to go I shall sidestep that in lieu of others who are. In a more general sense, and very much depending on how much is vaguely done just not in this build, I don’t know if the Early Access route will be sufficient. I think, polish or no polish quite applied, at the very least you need a pretty compelling competitive game, from day 1 in early access. You probably need at least one facet of the casual game modes also in some good shape. Not perfect, but compelling, fun and feature complete. That’s probably a sufficient base to, if it does go this way, for the game to both raise the funds and maintain enthusiasm. But, with the proviso of if this is even the case, if they go down this route with something not that far along from what we’ve seen so far, I just can’t see people being that enthused, or sticking with it. As it is a big chunk of its player base are high level RTS players desperate for a new fix, and pros and ex pros looking to pivot to the new thing. If the new thing is dead on arrival, or ‘maybe the new thing in 2 years time’, do folks stick around? The only exception to this I’ve seen of Early Access successes are absolutely janky fucking messes, but ones that are trying to achieve a unique experience or some kind of niche appeal. People can be patient in such scenarios. And if there’s one thing Stormgate ain’t, it’s a unique experience. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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VelRa_G
Canada304 Posts
I'm willing to take them at their word when they say they want to make the best RTS they can. And when they say this new round of funds will be used for marketing. I can't care about all the "involving the community" marketing speak. Have a strong creative vision, know your audience, deliver a solid game, and stop pretending you're going to include Reddit into your game design docs. The "involving the community" speak reaches cringe levels in this latest move. All this drama is really putting the traditional publisher model in a better light, mass layoffs and austerity hitting big giants like Embracer aside. The biggest pain point for me is that the people most likely to get burned on StartEngine are RTS superfans high on copium, low on self control, and lower on spending money than they should be to jump on this "investment opportunity." "Involving the community" extends to risk management too, it would seem. | ||
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