On February 20 2024 11:27 VelRa_G wrote: "Funded until Launch" versus "Funded until Early Access Launch" was certainly a misplay. FG went CC first against a 4 pool of Redditors and other Netizens ready to play spot the difference.
I'm willing to take them at their word when they say they want to make the best RTS they can. And when they say this new round of funds will be used for marketing. I can't care about all the "involving the community" marketing speak. Have a strong creative vision, know your audience, deliver a solid game, and stop pretending you're going to include Reddit into your game design docs. The "involving the community" speak reaches cringe levels in this latest move.
All this drama is really putting the traditional publisher model in a better light, mass layoffs and austerity hitting big giants like Embracer aside.
The biggest pain point for me is that the people most likely to get burned on StartEngine are RTS superfans high on copium, low on self control, and lower on spending money than they should be to jump on this "investment opportunity." "Involving the community" extends to risk management too, it would seem.
The problem I see here is that FG is being very naive and unrealistic when it comes to how to launch a game. It's the same mistake blizzard made with Heroes of the Storm. When that game launched it launched without a ranked ladder, unranked draft matchmaking, no ARAM mode, and a VERY limited and horrible map pool. Not to mention an extremely limited hero selection.
It was launching into a MoBA scene that was already saturated with multiple competitive games with thriving online communities in that state. It's not a surprise that the game wasn't taken seriously and had to rebrand itself not long after launching.
You ask me or anyone that's familiar with the game today, and it's a fantastic game. IMO it's the most fun MOBA on the market. But it absolutely FAILED to capture an audience when it launched, got laughed at for not being a serious game when its pro scene took a long time to develop (even though it was AWESOME when it actually did develop) and then died when it was never able to bring its player numbers up.
If Stormgate is going to launch looking and playing the way that it does, I can almost guarantee that the initial interest from the players it needs to win over if its going to succeed is going to be minimal. If it can't convince those players to switch over at launch how is it going to do it later down the line?
Now this comparison isn't 100% on point because Riot and Valve were actively promoting their MoBA games a LOT more than any RTS developer is currently promoting their games, but if FG is already out of money then it's not like they have a lot of resources to work with in creating an esports scene that's going to start poaching players or more importantly viewers from the other games.
I'm honestly pretty pissed about this bait and switch. The Kickstarter campaign included the claim that the game was fully funded through release and they were saying they just needed money to pay for more servers if more people wanted in on the beta. They've also made a lot of noise about where SC2 was at this stage of development, clearly implying that SG had another 3-5 years of development before it was completed.
How do you reconcile "we're fully funded through release" and "keep in mind we're 3-5 years from being finished" with this new announcement that they're going to run out of money in six months? And couched in language suggesting that was somehow always the plan?
I mean, funded till EA release is one thing. But this is supposed to be F2P so there is no additional funding generated in a "natural" way. And people buying skins and stuff in a feature incomplete mess of a game? Unlikely. I for one am very disappointed by FG and will take a step back and switch my fanboy glasses for nomal ones again. 35 mio + 2 mio in KS + whatever money they had when starting, in 3-4 years out the window is quite a sum.
They used up their money a little too fast, $30+ million is enough for a low-end 3A game such as Remedy's Control. If I'm an investor it's probably safer to invest some other game developer with better budget management instead.
On February 20 2024 18:49 qwerty4w wrote: They used up their money a little too fast, $30+ million is enough for a low-end 3A game such as Remedy's Control. If I'm an investor it's probably safer to invest some other game developer with better budget management instead.
To be realistic, it doesn't surprise me at all that FrostGiant has a problem with managing a modest budget considering most of these dudes came from Blizzard which was able to spend MASSIVE piles of cash on developing their games. The last time Morheim and the crew had to work on a strapped budget was back in the 90's, PC games have come a LONG way since then.
On February 20 2024 18:49 qwerty4w wrote: They used up their money a little too fast, $30+ million is enough for a low-end 3A game such as Remedy's Control. If I'm an investor it's probably safer to invest some other game developer with better budget management instead.
To be realistic, it doesn't surprise me at all that FrostGiant has a problem with managing a modest budget considering most of these dudes came from Blizzard which was able to spend MASSIVE piles of cash on developing their games. The last time Morheim and the crew had to work on a strapped budget was back in the 90's, PC games have come a LONG way since then.
I don't think any of the big names from Blizzard in the 90s are at FG anyway? Mike Morhaime definitely isn't. James Anhalt is probably the most senior Blizzard guy at FG and he's an engineer more than a manager.
Look for Frost Giant's best people to start leaving. Its going to be interesting to see how much limited and valuable time big name Streamers will put into $torm Gate.
On February 20 2024 09:58 WombaT wrote: Well shit, perhaps Jimmy Raynor’s spider sense was on to something! Something feels increasingly a bit off, I’m just unsure where the fuckery is coming from really.
not "spider sense"... just objectively observing the facts. Money for "server costs during testing" is a weird excuse for a company of this size with $35 million in their budget. Frost Giant is selling this David Versus Goliath story. Then, they're worried about statues when they are supposed to be making a full featured game? They altered the Kickstarter mid way through to add a "2nd batch" of the "300 limited Signed Collectors Editions. This is a company scrambling for money.
If Frost Giant were serious about working on a small budget their HQ would be in the midwest or upstate New York. The weather in upstate New York is horrible and housing is super cheap. You can pay your staff a lot less and they can live well. They want to relax in SoCal. LOL.
Throughout my career making software I've watched tiny teams build better products than teams of 200. They behave very differently from how Frost Giant behaves. For example, Arnica Software was a team of ~10 that made Web Portal Tech that went toe-to-toe with the Web Portal Giants for over a dozen years. My tiny team, which started with me working alone, modded "Stonefield Reports" and it competed successfully with Seagate's and SAP's Crystal Reports from 2010 to 2020. Stonefield Reports itself was made by 2 guys.
A tiny team made Risk of Rain 2. 1 guy made River City Underground. There are a myriad of Steam games made by small teams. These teams' behaviour is incongruent with Frost Giant's behaviours.
Now, they're yapping about how AAA games need $100 Million and they only raised $35 million. Then, Frost Giant states the $tart Engine initiative is an attempt to raise $5 million. Uhh... what about the other $60 million? So they're going to raise $5 million.... live on another 6 months.. and then say.. hey guys.. we need another $5 million.
When the illusionist waves his left hand in front of his right hand telling you he has nothing in his left hand we all know he is doing something curious with his right hand. That was teh "statues" and the Kickstarter.
If any single one of the employees at Frost Giant truly loves RTS down to the bottom of their souls the way they claim there are many single man projects they can take on. As it succeeds financially they can grow from there. People who love the craft of software building do this ... all the time.
Yeah there is no way the game shown so far is going to hold enough interest to survive Early Access launch and raise enough to realistically continue development.
Reached to high to fast, flew to close to the sun and will now crash and burn unless serious outside capital comes in to rescue it.
Also explains the big tournament, I imagine they were hoping to entice more investment with it.
Clearly, this guy loves making games. He doesn't talk about how much he loves making games. He makes games.
I really wonder why visually speaking stormgate look so weak. Is it on purpose to ease performance in test periods ? Is it to sell better skins ? Maybe saving cost ? I have to say stormgate visually is one of the worst graphics i have ever seen.
The funny is they are doing this game on Unreal 5. The power of visuals in that thing are almost limitless so i dont really know.
On February 21 2024 00:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Look for Frost Giant's best people to start leaving. Its going to be interesting to see how much limited and valuable time big name Streamers will put into $torm Gate.
On February 20 2024 09:58 WombaT wrote: Well shit, perhaps Jimmy Raynor’s spider sense was on to something! Something feels increasingly a bit off, I’m just unsure where the fuckery is coming from really.
not "spider sense"... just objectively observing the facts. Money for "server costs during testing" is a weird excuse for a company of this size with $35 million in their budget. Frost Giant is selling this David Versus Goliath story. Then, they're worried about statues when they are supposed to be making a full featured game? They altered the Kickstarter mid way through to add a "2nd batch" of the "300 limited Signed Collectors Editions. This is a company scrambling for money.
If Frost Giant were serious about working on a small budget their HQ would be in the midwest or upstate New York. The weather in upstate New York is horrible and housing is super cheap. You can pay your staff a lot less and they can live well. They want to relax in SoCal. LOL.
Throughout my career making software I've watched tiny teams build better products than teams of 200. They behave very differently from how Frost Giant behaves. For example, Arnica Software was a team of ~10 that made Web Portal Tech that went toe-to-toe with the Web Portal Giants for over a dozen years. My tiny team, which started with me working alone, modded "Stonefield Reports" and it competed successfully with Seagate's and SAP's Crystal Reports from 2010 to 2020. Stonefield Reports itself was made by 2 guys.
A tiny team made Risk of Rain 2. 1 guy made River City Underground. There are a myriad of Steam games made by small teams. These teams' behaviour is incongruent with Frost Giant's behaviours.
Now, they're yapping about how AAA games need $100 Million and they only raised $35 million. Then, Frost Giant states the $tart Engine initiative is an attempt to raise $5 million. Uhh... what about the other $60 million? So they're going to raise $5 million.... live on another 6 months.. and then say.. hey guys.. we need another $5 million.
When the illusionist waves his left hand in front of his right hand telling you he has nothing in his left hand we all know he is doing something curious with his right hand. That was teh "statues" and the Kickstarter.
If any single one of the employees at Frost Giant truly loves RTS down to the bottom of their souls the way they claim there are many single man projects they can take on. As it succeeds financially they can grow from there. People who love the craft of software building do this ... all the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5N-RsKu63Y
Clearly, this guy loves making games. He doesn't talk about how much he loves making games. He makes games.
I may argue a lot with you when you’re out of your traditional wheelhouse, but I have always felt you definitely know your shit when it comes to your industry and tangentially linked ones.
So it’s from there I ponder, surely an RTS takes less money to make, depending on what you’re doing? And inspiration is as important in perspiration
If I play a modern AAA title, like a stock adventure game, an open-world title, or something like a Deus Ex (now brutally cancelled ). Surely that costs more?
You have to build a whole bunch of distinct environments, sometimes at a rather large scale, populate them. You need the art assets to stop it getting samey, to give flavour etc. Over rather a large amount of real estate. And you still have to do the game logic and mechanical aspects of the game, be it building an engine or modifying it. Then add on writing and voice acting.
With a competitive RTS, and let’s assume initially we’re going barebones, really all you need is a handful of assets to cover your unit types, and enough assets to build some arenas to do battle in. Plus the requisite engine work. Obviously this expands further once we factor in campaigns, but even WC3, SC2 was reusing tonnes of generic assets over and over in campaigns.
To me surely RTS is one of the least expensive vehicles to develop to a AAA standard? There’s way less expectation, at least amongst competitive RTS fans for absolutely crazy graphical fidelity, and you don’t need as many artists of various kinds to craft the believable and distinctive environments that are kind of a pre-requisite to make say a Horizon Zero Dawn or modern Zelda title. You can get away with maps that are subtle variations of a theme (SC2 has done this for forever), you don’t need the map variety and playtesting required for FPS games that have way more divergent maps.
Now, they're yapping about how AAA games need $100 Million and they only raised $35 million. Then, Frost Giant states the $tart Engine initiative is an attempt to raise $5 million. Uhh... what about the other $60 million? So they're going to raise $5 million.... live on another 6 months.. and then say.. hey guys.. we need another $5 million.
They will raise the rest of the funds they need through monetization during early access. It doesn't have to be $60 million, they can be more efficient with the money than most AAA studios. The money they raise through Start Engine will go towards marketing early access, not for post-early access development (although I imagine it won't hurt to have more runway).
Clearly, this guy loves making games. He doesn't talk about how much he loves making games. He makes games.
I really wonder why visually speaking stormgate look so weak. Is it on purpose to ease performance in test periods ? Is it to sell better skins ? Maybe saving cost ? I have to say stormgate visually is one of the worst graphics i have ever seen.
The funny is they are doing this game on Unreal 5. The power of visuals in that thing are almost limitless so i dont really know.
It's like using a sports car to go buy bread from the bakery down the street. The system requirements are ludicrous for a game that looks and runs like that.
I feel for Gerald, who seems to be up and at it early morning, diving headlong into damage control. CMs always have it rough. But the fact is the Kickstarter left many with the impression that the game was funded to feature completion, no matter the fine print.
Will the crowd equity campaign be successful enough for FG in the end that it offsets the erosion of community confidence?
I really dont know how they could run out of that amount of money for this product we see here? EA launch in couple of months even, people want to tell me there is a superb version still waiting for us compared to what we could play in the beta.
I dont believe it.
I will believe it when I see it, this game has potential but it has some red flags. My hopes are up for Godsworn (made by 2 people and some artists, looks and feels better than stormgate already) and Age of Mythology Retold. Age of Empires 4 is great and I hope mythology gets the love it deserves.
If this game actually fails due to budget concerns that will be such a disappointment.
I don't think the graphics are anything to write home about, but the gameplay is genuinely fun and I've enjoyed watching high level games too (I've been playing since Chronosphere alpha).
They aren't reinventing the wheel or anything, but I do feel the game has more promise than what seems to be in this thread (at least the past few pages). But I guess I am also feeling nostalgic for that feeling of a new RTS anyway. Maybe that clouds my judgement.
If they don't have enough to launch with 3 fully complete races and all their systems for at least 1v1, I'll be worried for them.
It doesn't help that startup tech got obliterated in 2022 and early 2023 (Silicon Bank failure etc.). I don't imagine there's tons of new investment right now, but in 6+ months when rates begin cutting... hopefully they can hang on and deliver a great product.
We are an independent studio with nearly $35M raised.
Am I wrong but $35M seems like a lot raised for a new studio? It should be possible to launch a good game.
And honestly what they accomplished so far in less than 3 years is pretty good.
So what went wrong? Did they spend excessively?
Do we know how big is the company? I mean not only the engineering team but overall, is it more or less than 50 people?
How many employees are usually hired to startup game devs before they release a game? Is 50+ people normal? I would have expected way less.
No idea really, but they were promissing an AAA game at some point, so who knows how their initial spending looked like? I did some lazy Google search and it told me 55 people, which sounds bit too much from what we've seen about FG, but if it's true then 35 million over 4 years is not THAT much really. It may be a lot for a small indie studio, but not sure about FG team size.
I guess they must have planned out crazy expenses when VC's were more willing to invest and thought they could get further funding easily.
It doesn't make sense to invest 10s of millions in a game when you have no proof of concept that you can attract a larger audience. Rather, keep costs low until we have some type of evidence that this is the case.
I also think trying to develop everything at once, campaign, co-op, 3v3, 1v1 etc is way too ambitious. Keep it focused and try to nail just one game-mode initially.
Ideally for the first few years, it's just a couple of devs with a clear vision on how to obtain the desired vision working at less than $500K in annual expenses. And they keep doing that until the proof of concept is established before seeking series A.
I am not well informed on US salaries nor tech companies expenses by any means, but based on hearsay, 500K in annual expenses for a California based office like FG, sounds enough maybe for two engineer salaries and office rent?
Why do you need an office? Why do you need to be california based? Why do you even need to hire all devs from the US?
Early stage startups must sometimes be primitive with people wearing multiple hats. E.g. CEO being responsible for finance, project management, design decisions etc.
At least that's how I imagine I would start up. Very very low scale and initial development would take a while, however costs and risk being low.
I get that the founders of Stormgate have more goodwill than I do and probably can start somewhat faster, but I still can't help but feel that the management team of Stormgate have been too used to working for big companies and couldn't probably adjust expenses. It must suck the employees who have put their heart and soul for this only to (likely fail) because the company may run out of money.
Why do you need to be california based? Why do you even need to hire all devs from the US?
Are these serious questions? They are a start-up funded by former Blizzard developers. Half of their current 50+ team are former Blizzard employees, a significant majority of whom live in California. That's why they got all that funding in the first place. That's why they garnered interest from the community and that's why they could build something so fun even in this early stage. Without those things, the game or the company wouldn't even exist.
Their office at 150 progress irvine ca was built brand new in 2021 and it costs $45 per sqft to rent space in that building
There are similar offices (not brand swanky new but perfectly serviceable) in the surrounding area for $25 per sqft
This is just one example of them burning money. Can't wait to read where they spent all the cash when the documents are presented to investors in a month
It's far easier to waste money when it's someone elses
EPT
). Surely that costs more? 
