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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16859 Posts
This analysis was prepared 11 days ago. From a 30,000 foot perspective the player #s are congruent with the above analysis. The video below is an analysis of someone in the NDA-ed alpha occurring BEFORE the paid beta. This guy does not pull any punches. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16859 Posts
Starcraft Brood War started off as a huge failure. It was "Orcs in Space". Then Starcraft1 was an imbalanced mess with a great campaign. The game only became a masterpiece many months AFTER the Brood War expansion. Remember 200 mineral Academies? or 10 second build time Dark Templars? Dark Templars were banned at my local PC Bang when Brood War first hit in 1999. LOL. I don't think the ban on DTs get repealed until very late 2000. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
With few exceptions, negativity drives clicks more than anything positive, or neutrally balanced/nuanced unless you’ve got an audience for one specific game. So Stormgate doesn’t have a relatively solid skeleton with some flaws, everything is just trash. The devs should be embarrassed, the Kickstarter isn’t a perhaps supplemental source of further funding for dedicated RTS fans that’s maybe ill-advised, it’s a borderline con job. Etc Not that I blame the guy, it’s how the platform is. Partly organically, partly deliberately given how content gains visibility. This goes both ways of course. People who’ve got the career they have doing RTS content, well they’re giving the benefit of the doubt a lot more to the only game on the horizon that seems to have the potential to at least support some kind of eSports scene From my travels I honestly think there’s a more balanced appraisal coming from this thread than elsewhere, least that I’ve seen. Even if people are being a bit unfair and unrealistic, they’re pretty transparent about why. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On February 17 2024 23:02 qwerty4w wrote: Zero-K and Beyond All Reason have a "line move" UI feature that can be very useful for preventing blob-like army. It was also borrowed by the indie RTS game Istrolid (https://store.steampowered.com/app/449140/Istrolid/), you can see a demonstration in Istrolid here: But the problem is when the target audience of your game think splitting units with a lot of clicking is an irreplaceable source of skill, it's difficult to use any UI solution like this. I must say I like that mechanic, seems to work rather elegantly. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On February 17 2024 10:31 WGT-Baal wrote: I proposed something in the same vein as your first point a few posts prior. 2 and 3 are interesting ideas on the macro side that would be cool to see for sure. Possibly with bigger maps necessary to do it, the speed of the units can be used as well, if it s slower you re more likely to spread them than run your deadball around Perhaps i subconsciously stole the first point haha, if so, apologies One thing I mention a lot is SC2 doesn’t have a massive amount of variance in unit speeds. Especially with a Protoss deathball. Most of its constituent parts kinda move pretty similarly, so the whole blob of death stays quite compact. Whereas let’s say you got rid of charge, made zealots be even faster passively a la BW zealot legs, then made say, Collosus a good bit slower, well if you A-move over any distance your army will naturally stretch its lines, and need manually re-gathered to prevent flanking of isolated parts of it. I don’t think it would be some (Frost) giant change that would alone fix deathballs, but every little helps. It seems to be something Stormgate is doing too, least from what I’ve experienced so far. You’ve got a few speedy boys that are a bit more fragile and will clearly operate very effectively for harassment and run-bys, but the real core meat of armies seems to have a move speed rather close to the other components. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3396 Posts
On February 18 2024 02:13 WombaT wrote: Perhaps i subconsciously stole the first point haha, if so, apologies One thing I mention a lot is SC2 doesn’t have a massive amount of variance in unit speeds. Especially with a Protoss deathball. Most of its constituent parts kinda move pretty similarly, so the whole blob of death stays quite compact. Whereas let’s say you got rid of charge, made zealots be even faster passively a la BW zealot legs, then made say, Collosus a good bit slower, well if you A-move over any distance your army will naturally stretch its lines, and need manually re-gathered to prevent flanking of isolated parts of it. I don’t think it would be some (Frost) giant change that would alone fix deathballs, but every little helps. It seems to be something Stormgate is doing too, least from what I’ve experienced so far. You’ve got a few speedy boys that are a bit more fragile and will clearly operate very effectively for harassment and run-bys, but the real core meat of armies seems to have a move speed rather close to the other components. No worries lol. We re both veterans of the same games and forum, makes sense we d have similar ideas. What I m reading is we should all create some consulting company and sell our ideas to SG ^^ | ||
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Spirral
69 Posts
I was hoping for a further evolution of Blizzard style RTS, rather than a remix of all the old ideas. So far I feel like playing a different mode of SC2. It feels good to play, but everything feels like a recycled idea, which gets old pretty quickly. But maybe someone who didn't sink in 1000 hours into Blizz RTS already might find it exciting? When I first saw WC3 I was blown away. Graphics, music, sounds, lore, matchmaking, gameplay, everything felt fresh, modern, innovative, maybe even ahead of it's time. SG so far feels like reheated yesterday's pizza, it's good, but won't lose my mind over it. I hope the impression on release will be much better. | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
Also the RTS community is very split on changing the old formula and I'd say that the Blizzard RTS fanbase is more risk-averse than most. | ||
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dysenterymd
1248 Posts
Still, I feel like for SC2 to be worth abandoning (or BW/WC3 if you're fans of those games), Stormgate being "fine" isn't good enough - it has to be original and exciting. Stormgate both looks worse than SC2 and feels derivative. If I have a bunch of free time I might give Stormgate a try, but I'm not in a rush to download the game. If you say that I'm ignorant about Stormgate that's 100% true - but if Stormgate is going to take off, people who know very little about Stormgate and are emotionally invested in other RTS have to be intrigued by Stormgate. | ||
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qwerty4w
53 Posts
The disparity between them is a source of micro skill, but if you really don't like blob-like army shape, it probably should not be too viable even if the player has infinite APM. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
On February 18 2024 10:09 Spirral wrote: Been playing a bit since closed beta, had high hopes, but can't really get hooked on so far. I was hoping for a further evolution of Blizzard style RTS, rather than a remix of all the old ideas. So far I feel like playing a different mode of SC2. It feels good to play, but everything feels like a recycled idea, which gets old pretty quickly. But maybe someone who didn't sink in 1000 hours into Blizz RTS already might find it exciting? When I first saw WC3 I was blown away. Graphics, music, sounds, lore, matchmaking, gameplay, everything felt fresh, modern, innovative, maybe even ahead of it's time. SG so far feels like reheated yesterday's pizza, it's good, but won't lose my mind over it. I hope the impression on release will be much better. I think the people who find it exciting now are those who likes blizzard RTS games, likes a bit of micro and enjoys the process of learning the game, figuring out builds/strategies etc. Being part of a new RTS game that is actively being developed and improved is fun. If I had more free time, I could myself find enjoyment in this. I don't think it's gonna work for new players. For new players you need to give them a big "why". A why can be, "play this new game to experience the fun low-skill floor mechanic where you potentially can make insane outplays." Stormgate does not give you that why and I would require very large changes/additions to the game to enable that. And while it seems most current complains about the game are related to graphics, sounds etc., eventually I expect the complaints - when the novelty of learning the game wears off - to shift towards complaining about larger army micro. Increasing the length of battles is a good thing, but seeing these massive deathbally army stand still while attacking for 30 seconds is boring. We need to see a lot more movement and a lot more abilities that rewards movement and punishes standing still and allows the top-top players to stand out from the good players. | ||
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Seacow
Sweden99 Posts
1) Why does TL.net endorse SG? Feels very forced. Is TL staff involved in its development or is it wishful thinking that we'll get a new shiny RTS which will rejuvenate the RTS scene? 2) Why does SG look like Craft of Stars: DEMON KING mobile game? Looks like diablo/sc2 ripoff, completely lacking its own identity or any sort of... cohesion. A classic fantasy dragon attacking a mech worker 3) Gameplay seems very sluggish and unsatisfying both to watch and play. Melee dude mosh pit. 4) What's the target audience for this mess? MOBA players? RTS vets? Neither? Yeah negative nancy over here, but I remember being pleasantly surprised when it was announced way back that "ex blizz staff was making a new RTS" but this is NOT what I expected a few years later. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On February 18 2024 17:46 Hider wrote: I think the people who find it exciting now are those who likes blizzard RTS games, likes a bit of micro and enjoys the process of learning the game, figuring out builds/strategies etc. Being part of a new RTS game that is actively being developed and improved is fun. If I had more free time, I could myself find enjoyment in this. I don't think it's gonna work for new players. For new players you need to give them a big "why". A why can be, "play this new game to experience the fun low-skill floor mechanic where you potentially can make insane outplays." Stormgate does not give you that why and I would require very large changes/additions to the game to enable that. And while it seems most current complains about the game are related to graphics, sounds etc., eventually I expect the complaints - when the novelty of learning the game wears off - to shift towards complaining about larger army micro. Increasing the length of battles is a good thing, but seeing these massive deathbally army stand still while attacking for 30 seconds is boring. We need to see a lot more movement and a lot more abilities that rewards movement and punishes standing still and allows the top-top players to stand out from the good players. It feels like the worst of both worlds, so far. You’ve still got deathballs fighting, without a huge amount of micro (there is some don’t get me wrong) the difference is that it’s just longer. It feels the higher TTK is not really making the room for more elaborate and interesting micro as battles scale up. Add to that you have less to do in terms of macro or other multitasking, which is a separate but related issue. SC2 could be extremely frustrating as a player because it’s so punishing, but that could make intense large engagements exciting too. Eating or successfully splitting against banes, landing a juicy storm or disruptor hit, setting up a big bio/Zerg flank and rinsing an army. WC3 got around the deathball issue by having fewer units and potent heroes. BW through the difficulty to actually manoeuvre one. I’m not sure how this title is going to manage that with its current design. It feels you really need some properly potent AoE options, or casters that scale up the more units they’re facing. You also make it more viable to hold strategic locations at a numerical deficit. On the flip side of that you have the issue that the higher TTK in general makes it difficult to have any kind of anti-deathball option that’s actually useful outside of a deathball. As things currently look, if you made like a Stormgate Templar strong enough to actually kill clumps of units quickly, it’s way out of scale with the damage output:health of everything else. But if it only tickles units down a quarter of their HP and keep with that general scaling, it’ll not be all that useful working in isolation or small groups. It’s a tricky one! I hope they nail it as I definitely do miss the pace of WC3 battles amidst the frenetic pace of SC2’s, or at least something somewhere in the middle would be great. | ||
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Vision7
4 Posts
SC2 air units should fit this kind of movement, really cool and really well done | ||
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
On February 18 2024 21:58 WombaT wrote: It feels like the worst of both worlds, so far. You’ve still got deathballs fighting, without a huge amount of micro (there is some don’t get me wrong) the difference is that it’s just longer. It feels the higher TTK is not really making the room for more elaborate and interesting micro as battles scale up. Add to that you have less to do in terms of macro or other multitasking, which is a separate but related issue. SC2 could be extremely frustrating as a player because it’s so punishing, but that could make intense large engagements exciting too. Eating or successfully splitting against banes, landing a juicy storm or disruptor hit, setting up a big bio/Zerg flank and rinsing an army. WC3 got around the deathball issue by having fewer units and potent heroes. BW through the difficulty to actually manoeuvre one. I’m not sure how this title is going to manage that with its current design. It feels you really need some properly potent AoE options, or casters that scale up the more units they’re facing. You also make it more viable to hold strategic locations at a numerical deficit. On the flip side of that you have the issue that the higher TTK in general makes it difficult to have any kind of anti-deathball option that’s actually useful outside of a deathball. As things currently look, if you made like a Stormgate Templar strong enough to actually kill clumps of units quickly, it’s way out of scale with the damage output:health of everything else. But if it only tickles units down a quarter of their HP and keep with that general scaling, it’ll not be all that useful working in isolation or small groups. It’s a tricky one! I hope they nail it as I definitely do miss the pace of WC3 battles amidst the frenetic pace of SC2’s, or at least something somewhere in the middle would be great. I think you make some great points. How would a High Templar work in a game like Stormgate? Could it prevent deathballs even if it could only deal 40% of an enemy units HP? Part of the excitement of Storm in Sc2 is that it can kill units if the opponent doesn't react fast enough. In some cases that can make sc2 quite unforgiving - but, if you combine fast speed (and thus unforgiving micro) with high defenders advantage + fast production speed/reinforcements that you could make a game that work well (as losing one battle isn't the end of the world). But, it does appear to me that a lot of people do like the slower speed of Stormgate fights, so ideally devs can find a way to make it work better. One thing that is clear though is that they need to make it feel way easier to move units around during a battle. Maybe the physical unit radius needs to be reduced. Perhaps some movement speed increases to certain units. BW through the difficulty to actually manoeuvre one. I am pretty sure vZ without Dark Swarm would also be way more deathballish. The ability to trade cost effectively against any number of enemy units is the main driver. | ||
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VelRa_G
Canada304 Posts
On February 18 2024 02:05 WombaT wrote: I must say I like that mechanic, seems to work rather elegantly. It's in Zerospace and it works really well and feels very good. I'm a BAR enjoyer so had it in muscle memory, felt very natural within Zerospace as well. IMO new RTS games should just add this as early as possible and deal with the balance implications. Because it just straight up *feels* so good to use. | ||
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_Spartak_
Turkey419 Posts
https://www.twitch.tv/egctv | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5447 Posts
On February 18 2024 01:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The video below is an analysis of someone in the NDA-ed alpha occurring BEFORE the paid beta. This guy does not pull any punches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh9BLU4i3RE I think this guy is too sensitive to be playing an unfinished game. Most of his criticisms are due to the game still being developed, like no tier 3, no 3rd races, unfinished replay interface, etc. That video was a waste of time.  | ||
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Miragee
8565 Posts
On February 19 2024 00:10 _Spartak_ wrote: The final day of the first major Stormgate tournament is live: https://www.twitch.tv/egctv These commercial breaks which are not communicated with the casters, are just annoying. | ||
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