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On June 14 2022 06:02 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Mmh I think war3 does a lot of things right despite being "slower" and units taking longer to die, it has deep micro while it can be ok to miss a few seconds of action, the part where it's weaker than some other RTS is the strategies tend to repeat themselves sometimes way too much in some match ups.
I think the Wc3-type of micro can work as well. However, if you opt for a low lethality, low army size and slow movement approach you have to compensate with lots of ability casting in order to maintain a reasonable micro skill cap.
Personally I prefer "movement" based micro. E.g. you pull injured units away, splitting and kiting. Not that those things doesn't exist in Wc3 either however, they become noticeably easier when everything is slowed down thus reducing the skill-cap.
Clem kiting while focus firing banelings that are blended in with other zerglings is insanely impressive to watch. But wouldn't be as impressive if everything was slowed down by 50%.
In my ideal game, ability casting would be something that forces/rewards the opponent for microing his units (e.g. splitting vs storm) as opposed to something that take up lots of APM by itself.
For that reason I am very much against abilities that heal units or "click a button to activate shield". Those types of abilities doesn't reward movement-based micro but rather the ability-casting become micro by itself and discourages the player from moving his injured units back.
In contrast I am a big fan of skillshots - although they should cost a decent amount of energy in order to ensure they don't become too spammy and spellcasters shouldn't be massable.
That said the Wc3 approach can still work if done well, but it's not my ideal RTS game.
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Yeah I think lots of things are possible, something that's paced sorta similar or closer to war3 could also have less abilities and much more army size etc. SC2 I feel has too much destruction within a short time span which makes it vital to be on top of the action at all time and the game can turn upside down in a sec. Was calling that volatility. But it's a game style thing I guess; I would argue it doesn't necessarily help with the strategy part of the game. Notably and for example, I think in a game with less volatility or lethality it's lot more manageable to have action happening simultaneously on different parts of the map which I think is very cool. Bw has that to an extent.
Btw I would argue even BW tends to have too much volatility with notably worker kills using stuff like storms or reavers or tanks mines lurkers etc.
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I like the over all general philosophies presented by Frost Giant. Hopefully, the game is good.
Campaign co-op was in Red Alert 3 from 2009. I thought it was amazing then and I'm glad this group of C&C and SC2 developers agrees. Tim Morton was an important part of RA3... so no big surprise campaign co-op will be part of this game.
Stormgate seems like a really lame game name. Hopefully, once we know more about the background lore and theme the name will seem cooler... OR.. they change the name of the game.
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On June 14 2022 11:02 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Btw I would argue even BW tends to have too much volatility with notably worker kills using stuff like storms or reavers or tanks mines lurkers etc.
On the volatility stuff, I feel quite strongly that economy + production speed has to increase in relation to both SC1 and Sc2. Gameplay generally feels much healthier when players can afford to lose 10 workers or one base because they have 5 other bases with 80 workers. Whereas if you have 40 workers you can't afford to lose 10 workers, or if you have 60 army supply you can't afford to lose 20 army supply due to one mistake.
Combined with a general increase in defenders advantage I think you can create a much more back-and-forth gameplay that almost never is decided by just 1-2 skirmishes (or a build order for that matter).
Yeah I think lots of things are possible, something that's paced sorta similar or closer to war3 could also have less abilities and much more army size etc.
So like Sc2 but much slower? I think that is simply equal to a significant reduction in the skillcap relative to Sc2. If you give players more time to do the same actions you need to add some extra micro opportunities to replicate the skillcap.
SC2 I feel has too much destruction within a short time span which makes it vital to be on top of the action at all time and the game can turn upside down in a sec
Hence why you increase defenders advantage and production/economy speed. Design the game around it being "okay" to make split-second mistakes.
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On June 14 2022 07:27 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2022 06:02 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Mmh I think war3 does a lot of things right despite being "slower" and units taking longer to die, it has deep micro while it can be ok to miss a few seconds of action, the part where it's weaker than some other RTS is the strategies tend to repeat themselves sometimes way too much in some match ups. I think the Wc3-type of micro can work as well. However, if you opt for a low lethality, low army size and slow movement approach you have to compensate with lots of ability casting in order to maintain a reasonable micro skill cap. Personally I prefer "movement" based micro. E.g. you pull injured units away, splitting and kiting. Not that those things doesn't exist in Wc3 either however, they become noticeably easier when everything is slowed down thus reducing the skill-cap. Clem kiting while focus firing banelings that are blended in with other zerglings is insanely impressive to watch. But wouldn't be as impressive if everything was slowed down by 50%. In my ideal game, ability casting would be something that forces/rewards the opponent for microing his units (e.g. splitting vs storm) as opposed to something that take up lots of APM by itself. For that reason I am very much against abilities that heal units or "click a button to activate shield". Those types of abilities doesn't reward movement-based micro but rather the ability-casting become micro by itself and discourages the player from moving his injured units back. In contrast I am a big fan of skillshots - although they should cost a decent amount of energy in order to ensure they don't become too spammy and spellcasters shouldn't be massable. That said the Wc3 approach can still work if done well, but it's not my ideal RTS game.
for every show-stopping unit interaction in SC2, WC3 has half a dozen more meanginful micro interactions. the very fast movement speed of SC2 limits the micro potential. sure you can focus-fire banelings and that's impressive, but this kind of precision micro only happens when the numbers are low enough. after that it's just stutter step and hope for the best, which is where SC2's micro becomes quite superficial
there is nothing impressive in the drudgery of bio vs roach / ravager or roach vs roach. all of that is just a number's game
you can't reliably perform unit surrounds in SC2 because everything is so slippery. you can't zig-zag like a Formula 1 racer to block your opponent's units from retreating. ok, you may entirely focus on splitting or kiting and nothing else. these things are easier to do in WC3: the catch is that WC3 had a lot more going on than just one unit interaction at a time: surrounding, kiting, splitting and blocking, all of which are more impactful to high-level WC3 than ability casting.
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Cinematic scene was okay, but I'll need to see some gameplay before I get too excited.
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SC2 is the best engine, and it could bring more fun than this fake hype around a mix between MOBA and RTS.
Slow SC2, add strategy components with ground, and that s all.
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It's also mathematical that if you have half the workers and they mine twice as fast but also build twice as slowly, then losing a single worker is quadruple times worse, give or take.
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On June 15 2022 01:47 Southlight wrote:
It's also mathematical that if you have half the workers and they mine twice as fast but also build twice as slowly, then losing a single worker is quadruple times worse, give or take.
what? if you lose 1 worker is twice as bad for mining or for building, it is not mathematical and is not 4x in any regards, unless a worker can mine and build on the same time but that too is nonsense.
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Hmmmmmmm
Well, the process of this game goes faster than i thought which is nice i guess.
However, from what they have shown i dont feel any hype. It looks generic, cartonish and meh so far. But ofc, the game might be great, we cannot say much now apart from the reaction based on what we can see. And what we can see is not much really.
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e, but this kind of precision micro only happens when the numbers are low enough. after that it's just stutter step and hope for the best,
It's because the skillcap is so high there are other actions which take higher priority. Theoretically with high enough APM you would group smaller selection units in a battle and target banelings. However, because it's more important to do other things this isn't being done.
However, you could benefit from having 2000 APM in a macro TvZ match. The more you slow down everything the less you benefit from that extra APM which is what skillcap is all about.
What's actually your theory as to why Sc2 isn't being played on medium? To everyone who think "Just sc2 but slower" well you got the game right there.
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On June 15 2022 02:29 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2022 01:47 Southlight wrote:
It's also mathematical that if you have half the workers and they mine twice as fast but also build twice as slowly, then losing a single worker is quadruple times worse, give or take. what? if you lose 1 worker is twice as bad for mining or for building, it is not mathematical and is not 4x in any regards, unless a worker can mine and build on the same time but that too is nonsense.
If a worker is twice as effective as a 'normal' worker, then losing one worker is twice as painful. It's similar to how losing a MULE in SC2 is more painful than losing an SCV.
If a worker also builds twice as slowly, then not only are you losing the extra effectiveness, it takes so much longer to replace that it's an even greater loss. Again, similar to losing a MULE right after summoning one in SC2.
Relative to other workers in the game it may not be twice as worse (because they're all twice as effective), but if the rate of resource collection per worker is the same as SC2 and production speed is the same, then the simple math is that each worker is literally worth twice as much as an SC2 worker, because that's the downside of consolidated resource collection.
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On June 15 2022 03:01 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +e, but this kind of precision micro only happens when the numbers are low enough. after that it's just stutter step and hope for the best, It's because the skillcap is so high there are other actions which take higher priority. Theoretically with high enough APM you would group smaller selection units in a battle and target banelings. However, because it's more important to do other things this isn't being done. However, you could benefit from having 2000 APM in a macro TvZ match. The more you slow down everything the less you benefit from that extra APM which is what skillcap is all about. What's actually your theory as to why Sc2 isn't being played on medium? To everyone who think "Just sc2 but slower" well you got the game right there.
nobody wants "SC2 but slower". the game is designed and balanced for Faster speed. Normal reduces the movement speed of units too much.
for talk's sake, on a scale of 1 to 10, let's say SC2 Faster is a 10
SC2 Faster = 10
SC2 Fast = 7.5
WC3 Fastest = 7
SC2 Normal = 5
I think the sweet spot for most RTS fans is somewhere around 7.5 or 8
my main concerns are the movement AI, unit size and hitbox size. the next competitive RTS should utilize slightly larger unit models and significantly larger hitboxes overall. that means no tiny units like reapers, zerglings or banelings, and no tight clumping like we have in SC2. SC2 units behave more like fluids than rigid objects, whereas every unit in WC3 has a weighty physical presence. I'm hoping that the minimum model size for Stormgate units will be closer to a hydralisk (or archer from WC3), and that the hitbox will be slightly bigger than the model size in order to make surround micro and blocking a major part of the game. this will prevent units from clumping up like blobs of liquid, thereby allowing AOE damage to be a healthy part of the game.
there are of course other values that can be adjusted, like unit health and sustain abilities. WC3 battles went on for a long time because there were so much healing and damage mitigation from items and spells (e.g. spirit link).
Spirit_Moon's average APM was around 240. Maru averages ~320 in SC2 (let's take a terran player because you don't want to include the inflation of zerg macro spam). I think Stormgate should be designed with this realistic max APM in mind. it doesn't matter what a 2k APM robot is capable of. imagine a version of SC2 that is just "slow" enough that those moments of flashy micro, like marines focus-firing banelings, can be used effectively by the top level players in big, maxed-out battles. yes, I believe there is a happy compromise somewhere between WC3 and SC2 that can draw from the best of both games without hurting the skill ceiling in the least. if anything, the skill ceiling will only get higher if Stormgate can learn from the flaws of SC2.
upsets are not uncommon in SC2. it happens that the top player of their races freakishly drops a map to an inferior player. this is a fact: the best SC2 player does not always win a Bo1, partly because the opportunity to micro your way back from a disadvantage is limited, whereas this very rarely happens in WC3. it's why I'm very glad to hear the devs of Stormgate talk about comeback potential in their interviews
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On June 15 2022 04:24 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2022 03:01 Hider wrote:e, but this kind of precision micro only happens when the numbers are low enough. after that it's just stutter step and hope for the best, It's because the skillcap is so high there are other actions which take higher priority. Theoretically with high enough APM you would group smaller selection units in a battle and target banelings. However, because it's more important to do other things this isn't being done. However, you could benefit from having 2000 APM in a macro TvZ match. The more you slow down everything the less you benefit from that extra APM which is what skillcap is all about. What's actually your theory as to why Sc2 isn't being played on medium? To everyone who think "Just sc2 but slower" well you got the game right there. my main concerns are the movement AI, unit size and hitbox size. the next competitive RTS should utilize slightly larger unit models and significantly larger hitboxes overall.
I disagree with this, I once was at a LAN tournament where st.life participated and I saw a game from behind him. In that game he rushed up a terran ramp 6 zerglings microing each one of them to 1 hp down the ramp, some would say he was behind because terran walled in time, but the fact that he got so much value (repair time, mining delay, etc.) out of those 6 zerglings was soo impressive to see, I think every rts should have those types of moments.
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On June 15 2022 04:48 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2022 04:24 SHODAN wrote:On June 15 2022 03:01 Hider wrote:e, but this kind of precision micro only happens when the numbers are low enough. after that it's just stutter step and hope for the best, It's because the skillcap is so high there are other actions which take higher priority. Theoretically with high enough APM you would group smaller selection units in a battle and target banelings. However, because it's more important to do other things this isn't being done. However, you could benefit from having 2000 APM in a macro TvZ match. The more you slow down everything the less you benefit from that extra APM which is what skillcap is all about. What's actually your theory as to why Sc2 isn't being played on medium? To everyone who think "Just sc2 but slower" well you got the game right there. my main concerns are the movement AI, unit size and hitbox size. the next competitive RTS should utilize slightly larger unit models and significantly larger hitboxes overall. I disagree with this, I once was at a LAN tournament where st.life participated and I saw a game from behind him. In that game he rushed up a terran ramp 6 zerglings microing each one of them to 1 hp down the ramp, some would say he was behind because terran walled in time, but the fact that he got so much value (repair time, mining delay, etc.) out of those 6 zerglings was soo impressive to see, I think every rts should have those types of moments.
ok cool, but I have no idea how this disagrees with anything I wrote
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On June 15 2022 04:53 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2022 04:48 xsnac wrote:On June 15 2022 04:24 SHODAN wrote:On June 15 2022 03:01 Hider wrote:e, but this kind of precision micro only happens when the numbers are low enough. after that it's just stutter step and hope for the best, It's because the skillcap is so high there are other actions which take higher priority. Theoretically with high enough APM you would group smaller selection units in a battle and target banelings. However, because it's more important to do other things this isn't being done. However, you could benefit from having 2000 APM in a macro TvZ match. The more you slow down everything the less you benefit from that extra APM which is what skillcap is all about. What's actually your theory as to why Sc2 isn't being played on medium? To everyone who think "Just sc2 but slower" well you got the game right there. my main concerns are the movement AI, unit size and hitbox size. the next competitive RTS should utilize slightly larger unit models and significantly larger hitboxes overall. I disagree with this, I once was at a LAN tournament where st.life participated and I saw a game from behind him. In that game he rushed up a terran ramp 6 zerglings microing each one of them to 1 hp down the ramp, some would say he was behind because terran walled in time, but the fact that he got so much value (repair time, mining delay, etc.) out of those 6 zerglings was soo impressive to see, I think every rts should have those types of moments. ok cool, but I have no idea how this disagrees with anything I wrote
relating to making hitbox/units bigger/tankier. if a pro gamer could micro zerglings and pull them back 1 by 1 at 1 hp, and blowing everybody's mind, then I think this type of play should have a place. it certainly did for viewers.
edit: or atleast, it did for me, I will forever remember that moment. I did not even knew it was possible, in my mind it was impossible until life did it.
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On June 15 2022 05:17 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2022 04:53 SHODAN wrote:On June 15 2022 04:48 xsnac wrote:On June 15 2022 04:24 SHODAN wrote:On June 15 2022 03:01 Hider wrote:e, but this kind of precision micro only happens when the numbers are low enough. after that it's just stutter step and hope for the best, It's because the skillcap is so high there are other actions which take higher priority. Theoretically with high enough APM you would group smaller selection units in a battle and target banelings. However, because it's more important to do other things this isn't being done. However, you could benefit from having 2000 APM in a macro TvZ match. The more you slow down everything the less you benefit from that extra APM which is what skillcap is all about. What's actually your theory as to why Sc2 isn't being played on medium? To everyone who think "Just sc2 but slower" well you got the game right there. my main concerns are the movement AI, unit size and hitbox size. the next competitive RTS should utilize slightly larger unit models and significantly larger hitboxes overall. I disagree with this, I once was at a LAN tournament where st.life participated and I saw a game from behind him. In that game he rushed up a terran ramp 6 zerglings microing each one of them to 1 hp down the ramp, some would say he was behind because terran walled in time, but the fact that he got so much value (repair time, mining delay, etc.) out of those 6 zerglings was soo impressive to see, I think every rts should have those types of moments. ok cool, but I have no idea how this disagrees with anything I wrote relating to making hitbox/units bigger/tankier. if a pro gamer could micro zerglings and pull them back 1 by 1 at 1 hp, and blowing everybody's mind, then I think this type of play should have a place. it certainly did for viewers. edit: or atleast, it did for me, I will forever remember that moment. I did not even knew it was possible, in my mind it was impossible until life did it.
I respect that this particular display of micro from Life holds a special place for you. I will always remember the marine micro from Maru, GuMiho and all my favourite terran players. however, making an RTS around a unit like the SC2 marine / zergling comes at a heavy cost. there is a reason you saw this ling micro in the very early game -- because it is impossible when the army supply surpasses a critical point, even for Life. when certain thresholds are reached, only "clumsy" micro exists in SC2, where you control clumps of units instead of individual units. this is where precision micro is not possible anymore. you could have a game where Life's level of micro is possible throughout most of the game, not just a narrow window. I think it's your mistake to dismiss such an idea as having larger unit models. if you go back and watch Moon micro his archers in WC3, maybe you will find it equally as impressive as Life's ling micro
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On June 15 2022 10:04 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2022 05:17 xsnac wrote:On June 15 2022 04:53 SHODAN wrote:On June 15 2022 04:48 xsnac wrote:On June 15 2022 04:24 SHODAN wrote:On June 15 2022 03:01 Hider wrote:e, but this kind of precision micro only happens when the numbers are low enough. after that it's just stutter step and hope for the best, It's because the skillcap is so high there are other actions which take higher priority. Theoretically with high enough APM you would group smaller selection units in a battle and target banelings. However, because it's more important to do other things this isn't being done. However, you could benefit from having 2000 APM in a macro TvZ match. The more you slow down everything the less you benefit from that extra APM which is what skillcap is all about. What's actually your theory as to why Sc2 isn't being played on medium? To everyone who think "Just sc2 but slower" well you got the game right there. my main concerns are the movement AI, unit size and hitbox size. the next competitive RTS should utilize slightly larger unit models and significantly larger hitboxes overall. I disagree with this, I once was at a LAN tournament where st.life participated and I saw a game from behind him. In that game he rushed up a terran ramp 6 zerglings microing each one of them to 1 hp down the ramp, some would say he was behind because terran walled in time, but the fact that he got so much value (repair time, mining delay, etc.) out of those 6 zerglings was soo impressive to see, I think every rts should have those types of moments. ok cool, but I have no idea how this disagrees with anything I wrote relating to making hitbox/units bigger/tankier. if a pro gamer could micro zerglings and pull them back 1 by 1 at 1 hp, and blowing everybody's mind, then I think this type of play should have a place. it certainly did for viewers. edit: or atleast, it did for me, I will forever remember that moment. I did not even knew it was possible, in my mind it was impossible until life did it. I respect that this particular display of micro from Life holds a special place for you. I will always remember the marine micro from Maru, GuMiho and all my favourite terran players. however, making an RTS around a unit like the SC2 marine / zergling comes at a heavy cost. there is a reason you saw this ling micro in the very early game -- because it is impossible when the army supply surpasses a critical point, even for Life. when certain thresholds are reached, only "clumsy" micro exists in SC2, where you control clumps of units instead of individual units. this is where precision micro is not possible anymore. you could have a game where Life's level of micro is possible throughout most of the game, not just a narrow window. I think it's your mistake to dismiss such an idea as having larger unit models. if you go back and watch Moon micro his archers in WC3, maybe you will find it equally as impressive as Life's ling micro
fair enough, but to retain such a thing in early as well as in mid and late gate, I think it can be achieved of strong upgrades would exist, dunno hive tech +2 armor and 3x hp more / zergling, but maybe this gets way too complicated.
edit: now that I think about it, a nice thing would be if you could say morph 4 zerglings into a mid tier (like a roach or something) unit so you can literally transition your early game army in mid game army.
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On June 14 2022 04:28 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2022 23:56 Miragee wrote:On June 13 2022 22:20 Hider wrote:I just want big armies smashing against each other, with unit counters, worker harassments and expanding, and have it done well. This doesn't look like that, sadly.. If I had to guess it also appear to me they are doing something that's a mix between Sc2 and Wc3. I am quite sure they will be able to create a good mix but it's not exactly my ideal game either. My ideal game would contain larger armies, fast movement and reaction speed with action and harassment all over the map. High lethality is only a concern if you cannot afford to lose your units, e.g. you look away for 1 second and lose your army --> GG. However, with fast production speed + defenders advantage, you can lose a portion of the game, survive and quickly rebuild to challenge the opponent again. It's possible they believe that large army sizes + fast paced game are too difficult too control for newer players and they may have a point. But I think that's really only true if macro still requires APM/focus. If you are developing a game where players control large armies and multitasking + even more micro potential than Sc2 --> you need to fully automate the macro-part if you want to appear to casuals. And I don't think they are doing such a drastic reinvention of RTS mechanics. Instead, I think they appear slightly more conservative and rather wants to improve upon what's already existing while finding a way to make it somewhat more appealing to a wider audience. DoW2 did the "macro needs no focus" and it was complete garbage. I don't think you need to automate the macro part to appear to casuals. Casuals like building their bases and army in strategy games. The 20 minute no rush meme exists for a reason as it is really not that much of a meme. DoW2 did fast paced, responsive units, large scale armies with lots of multitasking and high skill cap micro? No that game looks like shit. That's why I always preface by saying the most essential part of the game is getting the great feeling of controlling the units right. If the "engine"/unit control feeling sucks - nothing else matters about the game - it will fail. And I like that Frost Giant seems to understand that the necessity. In contrast I think Immortals Gates of Pyre is dead on arrival because the unit control looks slow and uninspiring. A mistake I think every single past RTS studio has made is thinking that you can maintain the skillcap of a game like Sc2 by "reducing the speed of everything". However, the skillcap is generally correlated with the speed of primarily unit movement speed +responsiveness but also too some extent lethality. So if you both take away macromechanics and slow down everything, the game becomes uninteresting. It's definitely a possibility that Stormgate will fall into the same trap. If they make everything move and die much slower, they will have to compensate with more ability/spell-casting (wc3 micro) which I am not a fan of. As long as they maintain high movement speed of units and don't decrease lethality too much I think it can work though.
Yeah no it doesn't, but the pathfinding and hitboxes (+ F2/MUS) creates deathballs in SC2 which is super boring to me. The high lethalty leads to entire armies dying in seconds and the game is over. Buildings also die so quickly that you can poke in and kill and expo in 2s without any time for the opponent to respond if he doesn't have their army there in the first place.
All that will happen if you up the production speed and lower the cost is that people won't care about micro as often because the units are not worth it. They will send units and either withdraw immediately when there is defense or let them die more often. Maybe there will be more action but less microed/controlled action.
Now, I admit I could be wrong here. Afaik those systems have never been combined so it's hard to tell. This is my assertion when I look at DoW2 and SC2 compared to other games such as BW or WC3. However, I can firmly say that your description of your favourite RTS is definitely not what I would like in an RTS. I like the building/macro side of RTS, unless it's stupid, arbitrary stuff like queen injects. I don't like death balls but small armies all over the map. I like lethality and speed to be somewhere around BW's. I like defenders advantage and the ability to retreat.
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Another thing by the way - I hope to god that this game won't have a 200 unit supply cap. Can this outdated practice die already please, our pcs can support bigger armies now.
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EPT
