EPTStormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 248
| Forum Index > General Games |
|
_Spartak_
Turkey459 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland27365 Posts
| ||
|
RogerChillingworth
Chad3132 Posts
On August 09 2025 15:29 Cyro wrote: It's far too late to recover now, the question is just what happens to the game that people bought when the company closes. At the moment it would become unaccessible. I always thought the Steam agreement where you're licensing a game and not purchasing it was extremely unfriendly to consumers, and another notch on the dystopia belt when compared to how it used to be. It's like how the veneer of convenience is slowly eating away at the quality of everything. Maybe not slowly. I'll also throw this in regarding Stormgate. You really can't blame Frost Giant for not reinventing the wheel, or even attempting to back in 2019. It seems they set out to make a game like StarCraft that would be cared for by its developers, in a time when there was very little movement in RTS and SC2 was on the decline. And also, no SC3 from Blizz. However it does seem that after all these years, it is what people want. People want some real innovation, or in my opinion, if there's going to be some derivation, to really pick the right things. What Frost Giant can be blamed for is taking a game that was pretty good and fun, albeit incomplete, and still very derivative, back in 2023, and making it worse. Subjective territory ofcourse, but I could go down the list and explain (I won't). To me this is the egregious part, not that they didn't ace some masterpiece from day one. I don't know who they listened to, whether it was heavily weighted on bigger names in the community, or the larger community on reddit and discord, but they should not have listened. Their protocol of developing with the community, or whatever it was, instead of ivory towering it, I don't think was a good idea. It's the same reason social media is actually very bad for creativity. You're like constantly discouraged from being different, and so everyone's the same, and all content is bad—instead of maybe being a little out of touch and making something that isn't influenced by the over-abundance of communication and constant, immediate feedback. Like really, all the great stuff is made by people who go away and make something, not the idiots who are constantly posting shit like “WELL HMM I DNO WHO'S DECISION IT WAS TO PUT THE HOT FAUCET ON THE LEFT BUT, UHH, I JUST BURNED MY DICK OFF..” And really, why is it any different for games. Especially something “next gen”. The analogy I always use is Christopher Nolan doesn't poll the audience while he's writing his movie. He makes the thing, because he's the filmmaker, and the people buying tickets aren't. That's why they ordered the blue slurpee and farted 20 times during the movie. Anyway, fucking shit another novel from RogerChilli. I'm so sorry. I guess to sum it up, I don't blame them for not making the masterpiece, or reinventing the wheel that it seems people are now hungry for, but I do blame them for wrecking the “OK” kernel of a game they had in Sept/Oct of 2023. Maybe if we could rewind back to that build and resume from replay it'd be different, but alas... Full biopsy needed. Autopsy? | ||
|
SoleSteeler
Canada5472 Posts
Is it more about the slower economy, lower worker start? | ||
|
Topin
Peru10128 Posts
 " where Amara walks around. i couldnt restart the mission right away. i had to talk to every npc again to play again.... aish... i tried to load a saved instance from the game menu... my pc crashed  ...i went on to play Last Epoch.fwiw i liked the little bit i played but i will wait some time to see what happens before buying anything | ||
|
CicadaSC
United States1986 Posts
On August 10 2025 01:36 SoleSteeler wrote: I am curious to see why you think the game was better (or going down a better path) before. I've heard others say it, including Scarlett in this very thread. Is it more about the slower economy, lower worker start? Yes | ||
|
RogerChillingworth
Chad3132 Posts
On August 10 2025 01:36 SoleSteeler wrote: I am curious to see why you think the game was better (or going down a better path) before. I've heard others say it, including Scarlett in this very thread. Is it more about the slower economy, lower worker start? I don't know what Scarlett thinks, maybe she can chime in. But without writing anther 97 paragraphs, I will say in general it felt less like SC2 Legacy of the Void, a bit more like SC2 Wings of Liberty. It had hints of Warcraft and StarCraft 1, with slower pacing and slower, bigger units. Also, it was more like the game they wanted to make instead of what people were telling them to make. Lastly, it's about what wasn't there, or rather wasn't messed up yet, such as the 3rd faction (turned out to be a stinker imo) and the campaign (stinker). To be brief, I'll share a list of all the things. I want to point out one unit in particular that illustrates the point the best, which is the gaunt. The gaunt used to be really slow, and quite a bit healthier. It had its gameplay issues, like was pretty swingy with infest and everything, but the unit felt more like a Warcraft 3 unit. When it was eventually changed to be more like a ranged zergling, or a bit of a hydralisk unit, and was super quick, it was fun to control but we were now getting into SC2 territory, and further away from Brood War and Warcraft territory, the latter being more interesting micro wise, more about positioning and individual unit micro than stutter step. I don't remember what I said about the gaunt at the time, but it's these kinds of things that add up. Not saying the gaunt should have stayed exactly as it was, but it's an example of how things moved away from that slower, more methodical vibe and closer to StarCraft 2 LotV. Still, what plagued the game even then was how clumped everything is and how everything moves in unison like a big blob. So unit micro always felt much more like SC2. Here are all the differences I can think of in 2023:
Not that anyone gave a shit what I thought, but despite being wrong about some things along the way, I think my opinion has always been unwavering about stuff like unit clumping and spacing, pathing, zoom level, and seemingly most critically, the idea that game studios shouldn't listen to feedback while the eggs are still runny. There's more I could get into but I'd be saying too much, and I must save my sugary treats for my own efforts and not waste it all on Stormgate criticism shaking my smhing head. I think overall, SG was off to a good 'start' in 2023. It did lack vision and cohesion, but it had some real charm. I really did love the more colorful style, and I think Jesse Brophy did a fine job. Also that Vanguard track 1, or the main menu music, is truly an instant classic. But somehow, over the next 2 years, it did kind of take the vertical slide into a pool of feces. Oh shitballs another 186 paragraphs from Roger. Coulda been so much longer too. | ||
|
Gescom
Canada3516 Posts
On August 10 2025 10:26 RogerChillingworth wrote:
I admire some of your optimism, Roger. But these ones above are the ones that stand out for me. Stormgate was always and only ever built on a combination of hype and hope. FG leadership cashed in their reputations for ez money. Maybe intentionally, maybe just ignorant hubris, but it happened. TimC and TimM were both 5 years from retirement [no proof, just speculating based on 55 year old cali software guys] -- It's not a coincidence. Here's a copy-paste of something I posted on the Stormgate subreddit. All of these ex-Blizzard, ex-Riot companies feel like they're god's gift to game development and they have ALL failed for that reason. They don't know how to adjust, so they simply continue to operate as they used to when they worked for a company that printed money. Let's fly consultants out to test our game. Let's buy audio equipment suitable for Hans Zimmer to record our OST. Let's have 2 concept art artists on staff who don't add direct value to the product. Let's ensure we have a 5 person Legal & HR department for our small team. Let's hire a personal chef to make free lunches in our posh office space. Let's have team outings to the Dodger's game to "recharge". Meanwhile, the actual game is mediocre and not improving. These guys are powderpuffs. Others are doing a lot more, with less. It was a passion project, with nothing but a passion for living large on other peoples' money. The 5 year gravy train is likely coming to an end. https://bonfirestudios.com/ is another example of people burning $40M and coming up with nothing. Jury is still out on that one, but their playtest is in a couple of weeks but it also looks very sus for a 5 year dev cycle with 30-40 people. | ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
On August 10 2025 10:41 Gescom wrote: I admire some of your optimism, Roger. But these ones above are the ones that stand out for me. Stormgate was always and only ever built on a combination of hype and hope. FG cashed in their reputations for cash. Maybe intentionally, but just hubris, but it happened. TimC and TimM were both 5 years from retirement [no proof, just speculating based on 55 year old cali software guys] -- It's not a coincidence. Here's a copy-paste of something I posted on the Stormgate subreddit. All of these ex-Blizzard, ex-Riot companies feel like they're god's gift to game development and they have ALL failed for that reason. They don't know how to adjust and continue to work as they used to when they worked for a company that printed money. Let's fly consultants out to test our game. Let's buy audio equipment suitable for Hans Zimmer to record our OST. Let's have 2 concept art artists on staff who don't add direct value to the product. Let's ensure we have a 5 person Legal & HR department for our small team. Let's hire a personal chef to make free lunches in our posh office space. Let's have team outings to the Dodger's game to "recharge". Meanwhile, the actual game is mediocre and not improving. These guys are powderpuffs. Others are doing a lot more, with less. It was a passion project, with nothing but a passion for living large on other peoples' money. The 5 year gravy train is come to an end. https://bonfirestudios.com/ is another example of people burning $40M and coming up with nothing. Jury is still out on that one, but their playtest is in a couple of weeks but it also looks very sus for a 5 year dev cycle with 30-40 people. you are a poet. that is a quality roast and puts into words the vitriol that I share towards the leadership at FG the next great RTS will not be made by tired ex-Blizzard devs and I doubt it will come from an orange county / silicon valley studio either. that part of the world seems to attract the most out-of-touch, creatively bankrupt individuals in the industry. they have nothing of value to offer anyone who lives outside their bubble | ||
|
Gescom
Canada3516 Posts
https://classic.battle.net/war3/images/frys/sunnyvale/ss03.jpg , https://classic.battle.net/war3/images/frys/ss01.jpg | ||
|
Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
On August 10 2025 11:21 SHODAN wrote: you are a poet. that is a quality roast and puts into words the vitriol that I share towards the leadership at FG the next great RTS will not be made by tired ex-Blizzard devs and I doubt it will come from an orange county / silicon valley studio either. that part of the world seems to attract the most out-of-touch, creatively bankrupt individuals in the industry. they have nothing of value to offer anyone who lives outside their bubble Ya i agree. There's a huge bubble over there. I've worked on game dev a bit myself, i have some friends who do it full time. They've been sharing apartments, working from their bedrooms and living on ramen sometimes to make the numbers add up. It's a completely different world to giving yourself half a million a year plus stock and all of the other stuff from the whiteboard phase of development. The contrast feels quite insulting. It shouldn't be that difficult to get by, but FG's spend was 10-100x greater per employee and that's something that i find difficult to imagine at the high end, let alone justify. Zerospace seems closer to the indie stuff than to FG, and they seem to be doing much better for it - although there are some issues like UE4 RTS not performing well which aren't easy for them to address. | ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
On August 10 2025 16:11 Cyro wrote: Ya i agree. There's a huge bubble over there. I've worked on game dev a bit myself, i have some friends who do it full time. They've been sharing apartments, working from their bedrooms and living on ramen sometimes to make the numbers add up. It's a completely different world to giving yourself half a million a year plus stock and all of the other stuff from the whiteboard phase of development. The contrast feels quite insulting. It shouldn't be that difficult to get by, but FG's spend was 10-100x greater per employee and that's something that i find difficult to imagine, let alone justify. Zerospace seems closer to the indie stuff than to FG, and they seem to be doing much better for it - although there are some issues like UE4 RTS not performing well and they don't really have the resources to fix those foundational issues. my favourite game of the decade (so far) is SIGNALIS, by rose-engine. that's a team of 2 illustrators / game designers based in Hamburg, Germany. they spent 8 years making what would become one of the greatest survival horror games of all time. SIGNALIS is incredibly rich in lore, style and substance. 2 devs, in a bedroom somewhere, with a budget consisting of ramen and passion. nobody knows who the devs are. their real names, what they look or sound like is a mystery. in the years since the game was released, they've only communicated via memes and only ever did 1 or written interviews and that's it. true artists. I bought the game 3 times and gifted 2 copies to friends. that kinda passion just impresses the hell out of me when I look at efforts like that and compare it to the $40 million dollar slop of Stormgate, it makes me feel a little sick. they're a bunch of posers. there is no artistic value to Stormgate. the lore and the world-building just isn't there, because nobody at FG cares about it. the work done by the external music composers is alright, but yeah - the souls of every dev working in orange county studio have been bought, sold and paid for. Tim Morten and friends are touting their game in such an annoyingly entitled way - like they automatically deserve recognition and respect from the RTS community. they want all the sc2 / wc3 influencers to rally behind them, despite having very little of value to offer. I'm lurking in the Stormgate discord and they've managed to cultivate this small, cultish fanbase. it's non-stop posts like, "when's Grubby going to stream some of our game?? why hasn't Artosis played the new patch yet? what's wrong with them?! are they Stormgate haters??" then you have people posting screenshots of negative reviews on steam so that they can publicly ridicule them - accusing negative reviewers of being bots and shills. Tim Morten (on his pseudo reddit account) accused "rival RTS companies" of posting fake reviews in order to damage Stormgate's success. some of the cult members picked up on this and started blaming the staff of Battle Aces. if the FG staff had any integrity, they would have scrubbed those posts from their discord or at least spoke up, in order to dispel the rumor. I dunno, maybe I've been reading into it too much, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. besides the game being utter garbage, their paranoid fanbase is enough to turn me off | ||
|
Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
I'm lurking in the Stormgate discord and they've managed to cultivate this small, cultish fanbase. it's non-stop posts like, "when's Grubby going to stream some of our game?? why hasn't Artosis played the new patch yet? what's wrong with them?! are they Stormgate haters??" then you have people posting screenshots of negative reviews on steam so that they can publicly ridicule them - accusing negative reviewers of being bots and shills. Tim Morten (on his pseudo reddit account) accused "rival RTS companies" of posting fake reviews in order to damage Stormgate's success. some of the cult members picked up on this and started blaming the staff of Battle Aces. if the FG staff had any integrity, they would have scrubbed those posts from their discord or at least spoke up, in order to dispel the rumor. I dunno, maybe I've been reading into it too much, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah, you haven't been reading into it too much at all. The first thing that they did was take over every significant forum for discussion (except TL) and moderate them to encourage exactly that while shutting down any voice which wasn't exclusively positive. They lost a huge fraction of the playerbase and an invaluable trove of feedback because of that. If you don't say that the stuff that they are doing is 100% the correct decision and that you love it, you're going to be publically brigaded and ridiculed by many (including moderators working for FG) and possibly banned. Violating the discord TOS r.e. brigading is an everyday thing over there, clearly done by moderators and likely indirectly by FG staff (appointing those mods, telling people to post or do stuff, or doing it on alt accounts). They had a scandal where most of the queer people left the official forums (and also the game, since it was decided that the game/company didn't merit the effort of building an inclusive/safe forum) because trumpers were posting some super bigoted stuff and that was allowed, but a trans person got banned for speaking up against it in a reasonably civil way. The company backed the bigots then deleted evidence of it and of those people ever existing. That's Frost Giant and their values. It's IMO the #1 thing responsible for mortally wounding the game and company. You can't build a good game without feedback, saying "yes" to everything isn't actionable feedback, and nobody wants to hang out in "the world's first truly social RTS" when the only people allowed to chat there are the 40 most hateful guys on that half of the internet who just sit around all day looking for people to bully. It's not then surprising that they're the only people playing the game. The community didn't build that for them. Tim Morten built that, on purpose (he's in charge, and we have substantial evidence of him participating in it). He watched it happen. He could change it at any time, but he never did and likely never will. Such a disappointment for basically 99.9% of the RTS fans out there. | ||
|
Gescom
Canada3516 Posts
On August 10 2025 17:07 SHODAN wrote: my favourite game of the decade (so far) is SIGNALIS, by rose-engine. that's a team of 2 illustrators / game designers based in Hamburg, Germany. they spent 8 years making what would become one of the greatest survival horror games of all time. SIGNALIS is incredibly rich in lore, style and substance. 2 devs, in a bedroom somewhere, with a budget consisting of ramen and passion. nobody knows who the devs are. their real names, what they look or sound like is a mystery. in the years since the game was released, they've only communicated via memes and only ever did 1 or written interviews and that's it. true artists. I bought the game 3 times and gifted 2 copies to friends. that kinda passion just impresses the hell out of me when I look at efforts like that and compare it to the $40 million dollar slop of Stormgate, it makes me feel a little sick. they're a bunch of posers. there is no artistic value to Stormgate. the lore and the world-building just isn't there, because nobody at FG cares about it. the work done by the external music composers is alright, but yeah - the souls of every dev working in orange county studio have been bought, sold and paid for. Tim Morten and friends are touting their game in such an annoyingly entitled way - like they automatically deserve recognition and respect from the RTS community. they want all the sc2 / wc3 influencers to rally behind them, despite having very little of value to offer. I'm lurking in the Stormgate discord and they've managed to cultivate this small, cultish fanbase. it's non-stop posts like, "when's Grubby going to stream some of our game?? why hasn't Artosis played the new patch yet? what's wrong with them?! are they Stormgate haters??" then you have people posting screenshots of negative reviews on steam so that they can publicly ridicule them - accusing negative reviewers of being bots and shills. Tim Morten (on his pseudo reddit account) accused "rival RTS companies" of posting fake reviews in order to damage Stormgate's success. some of the cult members picked up on this and started blaming the staff of Battle Aces. if the FG staff had any integrity, they would have scrubbed those posts from their discord or at least spoke up, in order to dispel the rumor. I dunno, maybe I've been reading into it too much, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. besides the game being utter garbage, their paranoid fanbase is enough to turn me off Dude! Signalis is so cool. They got $ from me when the game launched. I didn't pay any attention to it after playing it nonstop for the week it came out, but wow, nice to see they got their flowers when I checked their Steam reviews just now. Legit this is proper stuff. For me, stuff in the same vein would be Dredge or Citizen Sleeper. Now, these are all Indie sized games when Stormgate is AA. Nevertheless, there are lots of AA studios doing well, but you truly need to earn it and work your way towards it. See SuperGiant Games. Make a 10 person game and succeed. Then make a 20 person game and succeed. THEN make a 50 person game and succeed. Bastion->Transistor->Pyre->Hades->Hades II. To start from the point they did, based on reputation only. Yeah.. grift/hubris. Odds of success were low. You can't just transplant people and assume you're carrying on right from where you left off. I dunno. The whole situation continues to rub me the wrong way bigtime. They can still recover, but it'd require them to admit massive mistakes, drop down to ~5 people remotely and then grind hard for a year. If they were capable of that, they would have done it already. Let's see.... Was looking around at Bonfire again yesterday and they are paying out massive $ for social media directors and community managers for a game that doesn't even exist yet. Whhhhy? | ||
|
moomin22
30 Posts
| ||
|
CicadaSC
United States1986 Posts
On August 10 2025 23:48 moomin22 wrote: It is very telling about the moderation style that spartak has become a meme. I dont know any other games where the mods are infamous. I can't fault it for entertainment value though. The way to mod is not to defend stormgate indefinitely. If a content breaks the rules, sure remove it. If someone shits on stormgate, leave it alone. Don't engage. You don't have to defend someone at every wrong turn or you look like a shill. People are allowed to not like stormgate just as much as they are allowed to love it. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland27365 Posts
They seem pretty fair in just general posting here or on the Reddit. I dunno if calling them a meme is especially justified I think it’s 100% fair on others, including ‘not Tim Morten’s sock puppet’ but Spartak seems alright to me like | ||
|
RogerChillingworth
Chad3132 Posts
On August 10 2025 17:07 SHODAN wrote: my favourite game of the decade (so far) is SIGNALIS, by rose-engine. that's a team of 2 illustrators / game designers based in Hamburg, Germany. they spent 8 years making what would become one of the greatest survival horror games of all time. SIGNALIS is incredibly rich in lore, style and substance. 2 devs, in a bedroom somewhere, with a budget consisting of ramen and passion. Thanks for sharing. I love stories like this. If these guys made a RTS, would they have to move to CHEESBURG Germany? lmfaolol Also I hope it's nice noodle and passion, not ramen n passion. Ramen is made from wheat and wheat causes inflammation. NO BUENO. Also to the people complaining about the SG discord, who cares. Just leave. It's like complaining someone was rude to you over the phone while you listened for 2 hours. HANG UP THE PHONE. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland27365 Posts
On August 10 2025 22:18 Gescom wrote: Dude! Signalis is so cool. They got $ from me when the game launched. I didn't pay any attention to it after playing it nonstop for the week it came out, but wow, nice to see they got their flowers when I checked their Steam reviews just now. Legit this is proper stuff. For me, stuff in the same vein would be Dredge or Citizen Sleeper. Now, these are all Indie sized games when Stormgate is AA. Nevertheless, there are lots of AA studios doing well, but you truly need to earn it and work your way towards it. See SuperGiant Games. Make a 10 person game and succeed. Then make a 20 person game and succeed. THEN make a 50 person game and succeed. Bastion->Transistor->Pyre->Hades->Hades II. To start from the point they did, based on reputation only. Yeah.. grift/hubris. Odds of success were low. You can't just transplant people and assume you're carrying on right from where you left off. I dunno. The whole situation continues to rub me the wrong way bigtime. They can still recover, but it'd require them to admit massive mistakes, drop down to ~5 people remotely and then grind hard for a year. If they were capable of that, they would have done it already. Let's see.... Was looking around at Bonfire again yesterday and they are paying out massive $ for social media directors and community managers for a game that doesn't even exist yet. Whhhhy? I think start small, have success, build up is a much more relevant overall model here for sure. Some things you just can’t do on passion and cocaine, even with huge dedication. In certain genres, I think you can pull it off and make a classic. But it depends on your scope. I play every ImSim going, and there’s some indies with fantastic ideas and creativity. They’re just not as good as a Deus Ex HR/MD, or Prey, or Dishonored(s) over a whole playthrough Budget does count to some degree. It’s like if you listen to a 7/10 album, and find out that the dude or dudette played every instrument. Like fuck, that’s impressive shit. But you’ll still enjoy that 8/10 that a regular band with their own specialised instruments played more | ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
On August 11 2025 13:41 WombaT wrote: Budget does count to some degree. It’s like if you listen to a 7/10 album, and find out that the dude or dudette played every instrument. Like fuck, that’s impressive shit. But you’ll still enjoy that 8/10 that a regular band with their own specialised instruments played more what would you enjoy more? a 10/10 album made with unwanted equipment salvaged from a garbage can? or an 8/10 album made with a blank cheque and state-of-the-art bespoke instruments? it's not how fancy your Parker pen is. it's how confidently you can write your name using the leaky BIC biro that your momma packed in your lunchbox. what makes art authentic is using the tools that are available to you in the present moment. Kraftwerk could have released a killer album in 1983 using analogue instruments. instead, Florian and Ralf discovered the Synclavier and chose to spend 3 long years agonizing over it (the instruction manual for the Synclavier was as thick as a phone book). meanwhile, the whole music scene rapidly changed around them. by the time they had read and understood the phone book, their upcoming album (tentatively titled Technopop) was becoming mausoleumed by the low-fi proto-techno sounds coming out of Detroit. Floran and Ralf were so obsessed with fidelity and wanting to sound more futuristic than everything else. the cost of their perfectionism was 5 long years between Computer World and what would eventually become Electric Cafe. back then, 5 years was considered an unhealthy creative hiatus. in the computer age we're living in today, the burden of choice is the very first obstacle that any producer has to overcome - and it's why nothing truly creative ever gets done without self-imposed restrictions. music has struggled to sound different since the early 2000's. we've been in a cultural recycling loop, a noise war, and a creative holocaust ever since the computer made its way into peoples living rooms. this anti-creative process resulted in 2 members of Kraftwerk leaving the group out of frustration. Kraftwerk never made another studio album until 2003 (their very last). it really doesn't matter what kind of bottle you use to capture lightning. you could postpone and linger until you've acquired the perfect, fancy crystal vial to store your lightning in. now you have very little left of your life waiting for lightning to strike again. I believe that what often separates a 10/10 album and an 8/10 album is the urgency to get it made, no matter what sacrifices you have to make in terms of fidelity. it doesn't matter what kind of media it is: music, film, writing or video game. often, the very best examples are produced under significant or even extreme budget restraints. I count money and time to be equally precious in the budget, because time is money. I find it very difficult to compartmentalize AAA, AA and indie games into their own separate categories when it comes to my own personal enjoyment of the experience. imagine if Blizzard had waited until they had the technology and budget of Stormgate before they released Brood War. imagine if Varg Vikernes had gotten a job at McDonalds so that he could afford a real microphone, instead of just recording Filosofem using the busted set of headphones that he had access to at the time. imagine if James Cameron held off on Terminator, or if Tarantino held off on Reservoir Dogs. the whole course of cultural history would have looked different. | ||
| ||
