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Artosis saving RTS?
The patch is solid all around. The balance changes all seem very sensible. Nerfing static D and defensive abilities is always good.
Brutes are now less derpy in big numbers, due to smaller radius and automatically retargeting if the unit they're attacking dies mid animation. This was absolutely necessary.
The weaver nerfs seem very heavy but they were a bit too strong. Hellborne also targeting air is also needed as Infernal had no way to deal with mass air (although they're missing T3 units so there's that).
Animancer nerfs are great, having a psistorm that also slows is just insane. And cabal buffs are welcome as they're one of the more interesting units that don't see much play.
But the real good changes here are the new maps, Frost Giant being flexible is very important to development
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On November 12 2024 13:02 WombaT wrote:
It’s a good, albeit depressing patch.
I think it’s mostly fucking solid. I think it’s evidence there’s some good ideas there, some talent. But game’s dead already I fear
There are few patches in any game I’ve read recently where I think basically everything is a good call, that gave me some confidence folks know what they’re doing. Here I think it’s almost all good
I really, really like speeding various projectile speeds. It doesn’t massively change engagements and TTK, but it’ll make engagements more initially punchy
I think it’s a very clever change. You still keep the more forgiving TTK but you do punch a bit harder
Well there is the big bang tournament with all the Korean BW Pros next week. If this can catch some traction in Korea the West might follow.
We'll see. I'm gonna try to watch it
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On November 12 2024 17:18 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 13:02 WombaT wrote:
It’s a good, albeit depressing patch.
I think it’s mostly fucking solid. I think it’s evidence there’s some good ideas there, some talent. But game’s dead already I fear
There are few patches in any game I’ve read recently where I think basically everything is a good call, that gave me some confidence folks know what they’re doing. Here I think it’s almost all good
I really, really like speeding various projectile speeds. It doesn’t massively change engagements and TTK, but it’ll make engagements more initially punchy
I think it’s a very clever change. You still keep the more forgiving TTK but you do punch a bit harder
Well there is the big bang tournament with all the Korean BW Pros next week. If this can catch some traction in Korea the West might follow. We'll see. I'm gonna try to watch it
I highly doubt it, the brood war community didn't give SC2 much chance, how can they actually care much about a much worse product
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On November 13 2024 00:57 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 17:18 Harris1st wrote:On November 12 2024 13:02 WombaT wrote:
It’s a good, albeit depressing patch.
I think it’s mostly fucking solid. I think it’s evidence there’s some good ideas there, some talent. But game’s dead already I fear
There are few patches in any game I’ve read recently where I think basically everything is a good call, that gave me some confidence folks know what they’re doing. Here I think it’s almost all good
I really, really like speeding various projectile speeds. It doesn’t massively change engagements and TTK, but it’ll make engagements more initially punchy
I think it’s a very clever change. You still keep the more forgiving TTK but you do punch a bit harder
Well there is the big bang tournament with all the Korean BW Pros next week. If this can catch some traction in Korea the West might follow. We'll see. I'm gonna try to watch it I highly doubt it, the brood war community didn't give SC2 much chance, how can they actually care much about a much worse product
They did care for an much worse product, it was called League of Legends. The game was (is?) atrocious in its early years. Awful talent tree, awful rune system, microtransaction, unappealing graphics. They didnt care. They also put League of Legends over DotA. Even though DotA 2 was like half the game of DotA 1, they still could have picked up DotA. They didnt. "But i was talking about the brood war community!". They wouldnt have carried by themself
Not too mention all the other garbage korean-grinder
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On November 13 2024 03:06 htregdftew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2024 00:57 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:On November 12 2024 17:18 Harris1st wrote:On November 12 2024 13:02 WombaT wrote:
It’s a good, albeit depressing patch.
I think it’s mostly fucking solid. I think it’s evidence there’s some good ideas there, some talent. But game’s dead already I fear
There are few patches in any game I’ve read recently where I think basically everything is a good call, that gave me some confidence folks know what they’re doing. Here I think it’s almost all good
I really, really like speeding various projectile speeds. It doesn’t massively change engagements and TTK, but it’ll make engagements more initially punchy
I think it’s a very clever change. You still keep the more forgiving TTK but you do punch a bit harder
Well there is the big bang tournament with all the Korean BW Pros next week. If this can catch some traction in Korea the West might follow. We'll see. I'm gonna try to watch it I highly doubt it, the brood war community didn't give SC2 much chance, how can they actually care much about a much worse product They did care for an much worse product, it was called League of Legends. The game was (is?) atrocious in its early years. Awful talent tree, awful rune system, microtransaction, unappealing graphics. They didnt care. They also put League of Legends over DotA. Even though DotA 2 was like half the game of DotA 1, they still could have picked up DotA. They didnt. "But i was talking about the brood war community!". They wouldnt have carried by themself Not too mention all the other garbage korean-grinder
show your true identity, then we can talk, nice smurf. :D
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On November 13 2024 04:03 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2024 03:06 htregdftew wrote:On November 13 2024 00:57 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:On November 12 2024 17:18 Harris1st wrote:On November 12 2024 13:02 WombaT wrote:
It’s a good, albeit depressing patch.
I think it’s mostly fucking solid. I think it’s evidence there’s some good ideas there, some talent. But game’s dead already I fear
There are few patches in any game I’ve read recently where I think basically everything is a good call, that gave me some confidence folks know what they’re doing. Here I think it’s almost all good
I really, really like speeding various projectile speeds. It doesn’t massively change engagements and TTK, but it’ll make engagements more initially punchy
I think it’s a very clever change. You still keep the more forgiving TTK but you do punch a bit harder
Well there is the big bang tournament with all the Korean BW Pros next week. If this can catch some traction in Korea the West might follow. We'll see. I'm gonna try to watch it I highly doubt it, the brood war community didn't give SC2 much chance, how can they actually care much about a much worse product They did care for an much worse product, it was called League of Legends. The game was (is?) atrocious in its early years. Awful talent tree, awful rune system, microtransaction, unappealing graphics. They didnt care. They also put League of Legends over DotA. Even though DotA 2 was like half the game of DotA 1, they still could have picked up DotA. They didnt. "But i was talking about the brood war community!". They wouldnt have carried by themself Not too mention all the other garbage korean-grinder show your true identity, then we can talk, nice smurf. :D
My "True Identity" was banned, since it didnt line up with the policy: "You are either with or against us." I mean, mods literally told me that they are piss-bias and dont want any negativity. Which is obviously unacceptable when you consider how much hatred used to spill out of this forum
User was banned for this post.
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Ah damn, you must've had the wrong mods, mods only banned me when I was legit being put into mental hospital, and when I was back, I was back on forum without issue. LOL
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 13 2024 04:31 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:
Ah damn, you must've had the wrong mods, mods only banned me when I was legit being put into mental hospital, and when I was back, I was back on forum without issue. LOL
As someone who can legitimately say ‘been there, don’t that’ I somewhat suspected that was the case.
Welcome back, hope you’re doing better!
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A few thoughts:
Everyone talks about how FGS finances are an "open book", yet that was a snapshot of their year end 2023. We don't know if they've secured new funding in 2024, lowered their burn rate (or increased), or anything else that might have happened.
Since their company is private, unless they open to a new round of public investors with new disclosures (which seems unlikely, in my opinion), their financial statements won't be available at 2024's year-end unless a previous investor requests it. Normally an investor who requests it would sign a NDA saying that they won't post it online (since it's a private company).
I'm not suggesting their financial situation is good - just that we really don't know. Just like we don't know who the original investors are, we don't know if any further funding was received (we do know Kakao Games invested, I can't remember how much that was?). Depending on the initial investors, it could make sense to help keep them afloat for at least another 6-12 months, if they needed funding, rather than let their investment just tank and go bankrupt. If, internally, FGS presented a decent plan to turn everything around.
Just random thoughts - I really have no idea of course, but neither does anyone else!
To me, they aren't acting like a company that might run out of money in a few months. They aren't releasing content for purchase and they're taking their time (seemingly).
But, maybe their tune could change any day now. Maybe they'll start begging people to buy their stuff!
edit: if I'm missing or overlooking something here, please let me know, anyone!
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I'm curious to see the Korean league next week - with a decent prize pool, players should bring their A-games. I'm not sure how the balance is with yesterday's patch, but hopefully we get a good show starting next week ...
I finished Blockade, Maloc, Kastiel and Amara to 15 in co-op. Auralanna feels super weak especially coming from Amara. I haven't purchased Warz yet, but I may consider it if I hit 15 on Auralanna. To me, co-op in SG is more fun than SC2's co-op, but definitely SC2 has better longevity.
I waited 2-3 minutes for a 1v1 last night and got some guy who was about 500 MMR lower than me. Not a good experience for either of us!
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To me, they aren't acting like a company that might run out of money in a few months. They aren't releasing content for purchase and they're taking their time (seemingly).
Why do you think they released the campaign? Don't you think they were aware of all the issues? If they had been able to secure another year of funding, don't you think they would have waited until further polish?
They are working on their hail marry. No other types of content than a huge new-game mode can have any effect. That's why they don't really care care too much about the 1v1 balance currently. Because the 1v1 playerbase doesn't matter. The only thing that potentially can save them is a huge 3v3 success.
I'm not suggesting their financial situation is good - just that we really don't know. Just like we don't know who the original investors are, we don't know if any further funding was received (we do know Kakao Games invested, I can't remember how much that was?). Depending on the initial investors, it could make sense to help keep them afloat for at least another 6-12 months, if they needed funding, rather than let their investment just tank and go bankrupt. If, internally, FGS presented a decent plan to turn everything around.
Pretty sure it's not a secret that they struggled to secure new funding. Hence why had to go "public" to increas funds.
it could make sense to help keep them afloat for at least another 6-12 months, if they needed funding, rather than let their investment just tank and go bankrupt. If, internally, FGS presented a decent plan to turn everything around.
What makes sense for investors is to keep them alive just long enough for them to be given a chance to see if they can attract any new types of players. If 3v3 becomes a modest success, they might be able to use that to secure additional funding. Otherwise I believe investors will think "what's another $10M gonna do? That's only 10 more months of funding.
TLDR; Everything screams they are desperate.
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Good points, yes, anyway I'm mostly just thinking "out loud".
I think they released the campaign because they said they would in the summer of 2024 during the Kickstarter campaign, and didn't think the backlash would be so harsh (although one interview did state that they "expected" it - certainly not to this extent, I would assume).
They also initially said they'd drop chapters 2 and 3 much quicker and didn't. It seems, at least, they were looking for the community's reaction to it, and did a very poor job in communicating where they were with it.
I do think that 3v3 is their major play and one that will dictate their longevity. If it's not fun at launch and they don't have the time to "fix it" then yeah, unless their finances have majorly changed they won't make it.
Their lack of funding was first mentioned in Sept 2023 in the interview with Cara Laforge, and then we saw the Kickstarter/round of public investment. SG being published in Korea was mentioned in June 2024. Other than that, we can only speculate on their finances in 2024. (Definitely not suggesting it's good).
Yes, I agree that what makes sense for investors is keeping the game afloat until 3v3 is released. My point was investors might be willing to invest a little more if it produces an outcome, rather than cut ties and let it die. How much is a "little more", probably not a lot, agreed. 6-12 months is a lot.
I find it interesting that their Kickstarter page still says, "Year Zero is what we’re calling our Early Access period. It’s a time when Stormgate will be in active development to continue iterating and polishing the game before we’re ready to say it’s “done.” We’ll have a year-long campaign for players to experience while we work on the Editor, build our 3v3 mode, refine our factions, Heroes, and units, and craft future campaign missions."
Were they just assuming they'd have a lot of revenue right away in EA? do they really have time for a year-long EA?
My thought process is this:
-Sept 2023, Laforge discusses the landscape of funding drying up
-Jan/Feb 2024, launch Kickstarter and public investing (can't remember what that was called). Announce EA will start in "summer of 2024"
-June 2024, announce Kakao Games will publish in Korea, and Early Access starts in August
-August 2024, game goes into EA and huge backlash on graphics, campaign, performance, overall theme, audio, etc.
-August/Sept 2024, FGS says thanks for the feedback, we're now going to work on 3v3, refining graphics/audio/performance, re-writing/re-recording campaign, working on performance
-Sept 2024, 0.1.0 has good initial feedback (Amara rework, lighting changes), but community goes back into cycle of negativity. released new co-op hero that was "free" if you already supported the game
-Oct 2024, they are going to delay 3v3 even further (private testing) and delay 0.2.0. And even hire a new Art Director
From those financial projection threads, they should be basically out of money very early in 2025. Do they really think that 3v3 will all of a sudden be a resounding success?
Again, I'm not saying they're not desperate, or they're not in trouble. Just something doesn't add up to me, or they will do one final big marketing campaign for 3v3, maybe starting in December, for their last Hail Mary. Otherwise, I don't feel like the company is acting as if it will be dead in Feb 2025, as was the projection. Of course, I'm sure they're keeping their cards close to their chest ...
Interest rates are dropping and stocks fully recovered from their 2022 drop by Oct/Nov of 2023, after the initial "private equity venture is drying up" discussion. It's not inconceivable that the funding landscape has at least improved substantially over the past 14 months. The US economy is still very strong.
We can't fully trust Tim Morten's statement in that one article that "the financial projections we've seen are wildly inaccurate", but I assume he doesn't want to mislead investors either. (Unless FGS is saying something more "realistic" behind closed doors that we don't know about).
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On November 14 2024 04:14 SoleSteeler wrote:
Good points, yes, anyway I'm mostly just thinking "out loud".
I think they released the campaign because they said they would in the summer of 2024 during the Kickstarter campaign, and didn't think the backlash would be so harsh (although one interview did state that they "expected" it - certainly not to this extent, I would assume).
They also initially said they'd drop chapters 2 and 3 much quicker and didn't. It seems, at least, they were looking for the community's reaction to it, and did a very poor job in communicating where they were with it.
I do think that 3v3 is their major play and one that will dictate their longevity. If it's not fun at launch and they don't have the time to "fix it" then yeah, unless their finances have majorly changed they won't make it.
Their lack of funding was first mentioned in Sept 2023 in the interview with Cara Laforge, and then we saw the Kickstarter/round of public investment. SG being published in Korea was mentioned in June 2024. Other than that, we can only speculate on their finances in 2024. (Definitely not suggesting it's good).
Yes, I agree that what makes sense for investors is keeping the game afloat until 3v3 is released. My point was investors might be willing to invest a little more if it produces an outcome, rather than cut ties and let it die. How much is a "little more", probably not a lot, agreed. 6-12 months is a lot.
I find it interesting that their Kickstarter page still says, "Year Zero is what we’re calling our Early Access period. It’s a time when Stormgate will be in active development to continue iterating and polishing the game before we’re ready to say it’s “done.” We’ll have a year-long campaign for players to experience while we work on the Editor, build our 3v3 mode, refine our factions, Heroes, and units, and craft future campaign missions."
Were they just assuming they'd have a lot of revenue right away in EA? do they really have time for a year-long EA?
My thought process is this:
-Sept 2023, Laforge discusses the landscape of funding drying up
-Jan/Feb 2024, launch Kickstarter and public investing (can't remember what that was called). Announce EA will start in "summer of 2024"
-June 2024, announce Kakao Games will publish in Korea, and Early Access starts in August
-August 2024, game goes into EA and huge backlash on graphics, campaign, performance, overall theme, audio, etc.
-August/Sept 2024, FGS says thanks for the feedback, we're now going to work on 3v3, refining graphics/audio/performance, re-writing/re-recording campaign, working on performance
-Sept 2024, 0.1.0 has good initial feedback (Amara rework, lighting changes), but community goes back into cycle of negativity. released new co-op hero that was "free" if you already supported the game
-Oct 2024, they are going to delay 3v3 even further (private testing) and delay 0.2.0. And even hire a new Art Director
From those financial projection threads, they should be basically out of money very early in 2025. Do they really think that 3v3 will all of a sudden be a resounding success?
Again, I'm not saying they're not desperate, or they're not in trouble. Just something doesn't add up to me, or they will do one final big marketing campaign for 3v3, maybe starting in December, for their last Hail Mary. Otherwise, I don't feel like the company is acting as if it will be dead in Feb 2025, as was the projection. Of course, I'm sure they're keeping their cards close to their chest ...
Interest rates are dropping and stocks fully recovered from their 2022 drop by Oct/Nov of 2023, after the initial "private equity venture is drying up" discussion. It's not inconceivable that the funding landscape has at least improved substantially over the past 14 months. The US economy is still very strong.
We can't fully trust Tim Morten's statement in that one article that "the financial projections we've seen are wildly inaccurate", but I assume he doesn't want to mislead investors either. (Unless FGS is saying something more "realistic" behind closed doors that we don't know about).
I don't know why people are giving FG so much credit.
They handled the terminology in KS extremely poorly. I would say it's intentional, the biggest evidence to that is their literally selling pitch of valuation model.
They called WOL their previous IP, and uses it as a reference that they would aim to capture half of WOL active monthly playerbase.
The financial they published is legally required, and they literally cannot lie in it without legal consequences. They themselves had said the running cost is expected to increase after the EA launch. Or whatever term they used.
While the economy is doing better and with trump who's all about business, I would expect a further drop in rates soon, but gaming sector just had a few big misses like starwar outlaw and Concord.
SG is a game with scope of Triple A and trying to do it at AA and grow it with MTX. That's not gonna happen when it can't even stay afloat.
A lot of games struggling would cut their management salary and staff to get the game as complete as possible, eg wayfinder.
But the scope is so big, so much not yet done that it wouldn't even matter much.
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On November 14 2024 07:04 ETisME wrote:
SG is a game with scope of Triple A and trying to do it at AA and grow it with MTX. That's not gonna happen when it can't even stay afloat.
A lot of games struggling would cut their management salary and staff to get the game as complete as possible, eg wayfinder.
But the scope is so big, so much not yet done that it wouldn't even matter much.
Why do you say that? SG is a typical AA game (developer size, budget) which goes for additional funding through MTX and content sales which makes AA+
There is nothing Triple A about this.
I also think when the 3v3 mode drops to the wider audience and isn't really really good then that's it. There will be no time to fix anything.
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On November 14 2024 18:22 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 07:04 ETisME wrote:
SG is a game with scope of Triple A and trying to do it at AA and grow it with MTX. That's not gonna happen when it can't even stay afloat.
A lot of games struggling would cut their management salary and staff to get the game as complete as possible, eg wayfinder.
But the scope is so big, so much not yet done that it wouldn't even matter much. Why do you say that? SG is a typical AA game (developer size, budget) which goes for additional funding through MTX and content sales which makes AA+ There is nothing Triple A about this. I also think when the 3v3 mode drops to the wider audience and isn't really really good then that's it. There will be no time to fix anything.
The scope is AAA, which is an issue when they only has AA budget and try to fund the rest with MTX.
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how will match making occur in this new 3v3 mode with so few players?
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On November 14 2024 20:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
how will match making occur in this new 3v3 mode with so few players?
im guessing if no 3v3 match is found after a certain point it will draw players from the 1v1 pool and ask them if they would like to join. or it can do what wow does. since tanks and healers are such a rarity if 3v3 players are needed because queue times pass a certain threshhold, you can give players who queue for it some kind of reward. maybe its a portrait, maybe its something else.
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On November 14 2024 19:33 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 18:22 Harris1st wrote:On November 14 2024 07:04 ETisME wrote:
SG is a game with scope of Triple A and trying to do it at AA and grow it with MTX. That's not gonna happen when it can't even stay afloat.
A lot of games struggling would cut their management salary and staff to get the game as complete as possible, eg wayfinder.
But the scope is so big, so much not yet done that it wouldn't even matter much. Why do you say that? SG is a typical AA game (developer size, budget) which goes for additional funding through MTX and content sales which makes AA+ There is nothing Triple A about this. I also think when the 3v3 mode drops to the wider audience and isn't really really good then that's it. There will be no time to fix anything. The scope is AAA, which is an issue when they only has AA budget and try to fund the rest with MTX.
Still don't get it. Care to expand on what you mean and for what reasons? Scope of what? Target audience? Content? Paychecks?
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On November 14 2024 20:10 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 20:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
how will match making occur in this new 3v3 mode with so few players? im guessing if no 3v3 match is found after a certain point it will draw players from the 1v1 pool and ask them if they would like to join. or it can do what wow does. since tanks and healers are such a rarity if 3v3 players are needed because queue times pass a certain threshhold, you can give players who queue for it some kind of reward. maybe its a portrait, maybe its something else.
When they release 3v3 and still only have 200 or less players it's over anyway. No more rewards needed
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On November 14 2024 20:10 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 20:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
how will match making occur in this new 3v3 mode with so few players? im guessing if no 3v3 match is found after a certain point it will draw players from the 1v1 pool and ask them if they would like to join. or it can do what wow does. since tanks and healers are such a rarity if 3v3 players are needed because queue times pass a certain threshhold, you can give players who queue for it some kind of reward. maybe its a portrait, maybe its something else.
Successfully applying netcode rollback in a 3v3 game with hundreds of units in simultaneous combat makes for a tough computer science problem. I am looking forward to Frost Giant's solution. 
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EPT
