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It's even worse because not being aware or missing it is not what happened here, as there has been vocal feedback on that stuff and other things (art!).
What happened here is that they thought they knew better what people like than their testers did and that those things are not as important to success as feedback from testers makes it out to be.
And that is interesting in itself imho: what conception of the world does one have to come to that conclusion? Did they think the testers would be more critical than the public and their criticism can therefore be dismissed? Did they get 95% positive feedback and then conclude that the 5% did not matter? It boggles the mind.
The thing is, you can only pull of the "thinking you know better" approach if you actually know better. If you don't, it leads to disaster.
Errors of judgement. Again.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
If i was working on an RTS project that tried to go into "beta" without letting me implement drag scroll i would quit to not have my name associated with it. There is no excuse.
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On September 26 2024 17:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2024 11:29 Fango wrote:On September 26 2024 11:04 WombaT wrote:On September 26 2024 10:48 Fango wrote:On September 25 2024 03:00 WombaT wrote:On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor? Is it even hard though? The thing that prevents remapping right now is being locked to Stormgate’s grid variant. Which was their call to pursue in the first place, and I and many others hypothesise a sub-optimal initial implementation is what’s making it ‘difficult’ now. They simply didn't realise it would be such a big issue for people. They've said so themselves. It was a low priority, to be completed in the future after finalising the UI. It took relentless demanding from playtesters to get any degree of customisation, and the devs had to go out of their way/plan in order to do it. They used grid because it's the most intuitive layout for beginners and easiest to learn with keys on the command card mirroring the keyboard, and being naturally similar to moba/fps layouts. They were definitely correct in choosing that, but the problem is that beginners aren't playing the game, at least not yet. The playerbase for early access is entirely RTS nerds, and they want to play with their exact sc2 layout. Had FG known this, they would have certainly implemented it from the ground. I’ve been informed by quite a few different people that this was routinely flagged as an issue in the closed playtests and plenty of feedback was given there The first closed playtest wasn't even a year ago, the game's been in development for 3 years. For most of development it wasn't even a thought. Devs are on record saying they were not aware it would be so important to people. It was a very requested feature in the first playtest along with 100 other things, and the devs said it would eventually be implemented. It was more demanded in the second, third playtests, and eventually devs went out of their way to add some degree of customisation. Apparently the further customisation in the latest update took some major engineering time. It's safe to say it just wasn't a priority for them. It was going to be something worked on after all the other UI work. Not being aware that people value customizable key binds is itself a massive red flag. Its one of the biggest requests for every game that doesn't have it over the last decades. If you can't even figure that out what else did you miss?
I think there's some leeway given they're building the game from the ground up and have priorities like netcode, replays, pathfinding, optimisation, matchmaking, map editor etc. As a dev I imagine it's easy to have hotkeys fall to the bottom of that list.
I'm not trying to justify the lack of hotkeys, I'm just saying it's safe to assume the devs simply were not away it would matter that much right from the start. It does show a lack of foresight, as appealing to RTS, especially SC2's, playerbase without hotkeys will never work.
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On September 26 2024 22:50 Fango wrote:
FGS isnt a 5 man passion project on a small budget. Key aspects have to be finished and working, no excuses.
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On September 26 2024 20:54 Cyro wrote:
If i was working on an RTS project that tried to go into "beta" without letting me implement drag scroll i would quit to not have my name associated with it. There is no excuse.
I honestly agree with this. No drag scroll and no hotkeys.. Can you imagine.. you're alienating like half of your sc2 playerbase who has played with comprehensive hotkey and mouse setups for years.
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The game has drag scroll?
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What do you mean no drag scroll exactly?
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Eh it might have it now but he was talkin about the beta.. I remember not having it when I first tried playing and haven't played since. so I guess drag scroll is fixed now but you still can't change hotkeys/modifiers correct?
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Northern Ireland26468 Posts
On September 27 2024 19:18 Comedy wrote:
Eh it might have it now but he was talkin about the beta.. I remember not having it when I first tried playing and haven't played since. so I guess drag scroll is fixed now but you still can't change hotkeys/modifiers correct?
You can change modifiers now, you just can’t remap fully independently. If you change something, it’ll change other things that share its position on the command card. Which isn’t ideal
I use shift + F numbers for my camera hotkeys, I couldn’t previously do this but can now.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On September 27 2024 18:49 TelecoM wrote:
What do you mean no drag scroll exactly?
Drag scroll is a mode for moving the camera. Basically you can hold down a button, typically middle mouse, and it makes your mouse move the camera position instead of the cursor. It's generally considered to be the most optimal way to move the camera in SC2 as there is less delay, less mouse movement required (you don't have to move the cursor to a screen edge) and more fine control (your movement speed and distance is proportional to how quickly and far you move the mouse instead of being at a locked value, and you can microadjust in any direction without having to move the cursor to the other side of the screen).
It wasn't "no drag scroll" but it was absolutely "no usable drag scroll" for the entirety of "beta" if not beyond.
While it was technically present, it was in a severely nonfunctional form that nobody was able to actually use to play the game. I never found evidence of anybody successfully playing via drag scroll, only heaps of people who tried it and immediately noped out - either quitting the game, or trying to get by with edge and keyboard scrolling instead. It seemed to be there so that people could say "the game has drag scroll!" but if you tried to use it for even a few seconds it was obvious that it couldn't be used for gameplay.
It had a single locked sensitivity which was a tiny fraction of the normal sensitivity in SC2 (under 1/5'th) so you had to lift the mouse and reposition it several times to be able to cross the map. This has a partial fix - since late beta you can turn the sensitivity up to a maximum of 70% of the sensitivity that i use in SC2. It's not clear why we can't just set the sensivity to what we want. You can't fix this via adjusting mouse DPI, because drag scroll sensivitiy is a multiplier between 2d pixel grid cursor movement and how far the camera moves when in drag mode; they need to be independently controlled in the game.
The cursor often teleported itself or your camera half a screen away when engaging or disengaging drag mode, which would happen 2 or 3 times a minute ingame. This one has never been acknowledged.
The sensitivity was inversely proportional to your framerate, which caused the sensitivity to increase inconsistently by 2-16x during FPS drops, especially when you got into a fight - so a normal camera microadjustment would throw it halfway across the map, and actions like kiting where you continually move the screen would cause the sensitivity to lurch back and forth in between commands. This was the biggest issue and it was never acknowledged or mentioned in a patch note.
Whenever you started a new game the drag scroll would invert itself, and you had to pause the game to go into the menu and turn it off and on again so that it wasn't backwards. That got fixed late beta.
That's what i would not put my name anywhere near. Basic UI stuff like moving the camera is pre alpha work because you can't test a game that you can't interface with. The complexity and time to implement is low, it's not held back by the creation or refinement of most game content and the return for building a functional UI is immediate and enormous.
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Did they manage to get steal + add hotkeys yet? It was just steal and create last time I played
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160 people playing last night and 25 watching on twitch. The only multiplayer mode where people could find games was 1v1.
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On September 27 2024 19:18 Comedy wrote:
Eh it might have it now but he was talkin about the beta.. I remember not having it when I first tried playing and haven't played since. so I guess drag scroll is fixed now but you still can't change hotkeys/modifiers correct? Drag scrolling was there during beta as well but was buggy iirc. It is mostly fixed now. You can also change the hotkey modifiers or add modifiers to any key you want since the last patch. The only thing you can't do right now is to assign different hotkeys for the things that are in the same grid slot. So you can't have one key for the first ability of one unit and another key for the first ability of another unit for example.
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On September 26 2024 00:21 townhouse wrote:
Epic prints money through Fortnite, I doubt they care about pinching pennies from UE. Tim Sweeney is a dev at heart and has given very generous terms to users of UE. That's the last thing FG has to worry about at this point.
Here is what a "nice guy" multibillionaire Tim Sweeney is.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/labor_employment_law_news/fall-issue-2023/the-practical-effects-of-epic-systems-v-lewis/
After Epic Systems, the company’s employees with employment-related legal claims have had to pursue their claims through individual arbitration proceedings. Our firms represented 21 former Epic Systems employees in their unpaid overtime claims against Epic Systems, resulting in 19 victories and two losses for our clients. In these 21 cases, Epic Systems has paid over $1.9 million in known costs to litigate the claims of these employees through individual mandatory arbitration—over $565,000 of which was paid to the arbitrator and the American Arbitration Association (AAA) to administer and run arbitration proceedings. Epic Systems has likely paid an additional seven-figure sum to its own attorneys, t
Also, Epic is going to have to change its terms of service due to the new California law because the Epic ToS and EULA are both deceptive.
Wage theft is a major crime in North America costing workers many billions every year. Epic and Tim Sweeney are a proven contributor to this major crime.
https://www.phillaw.com/news/50-billion-dollar-wage-theft-employment-problem
What a nice guy. Sorry man, Tim Sweeney is approximately as scummy as the rest of the video game industry. Which is pretty scummy and sometimes outright criminal.
If Epic views the Frost Giant World Builder as any issue at all.. they'll bury Frost Giant in legal proceedings without a second thought.
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On September 27 2024 22:33 _Spartak_ wrote:
The only thing you can't do is assign different hotkeys for the things that are in the same grid slot.
I guess for the majority of veteran RTS players this is equivalent with "you can't remap hotkeys". Whoever made the design decision thinking this is a good idea must be very disconnected from what the players actually expect. It's accumulation of "small" things like that make consumers gradually lose hope in the competency of the dev team.
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Spend a bit of time in SG today.
And a match just reminds me why it is so unready..
Walked my entire large supply infernal army to vanguard third because he's way out of position. The third has one bunker and a third of my army size, but the high ground messed up the entire army pathing and I can't even disengage
once I see what's going on.
Quit and uninstalled again. Such a horrible experience.
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bruh that article is talking about Epic Systems, a completely different company.
i only said he was a dev at heart. he's still nerding out about programming languages that he's helping create to script UE. also, he stood up to Google/Apple's monopolistic app store practices, which the programming community certainly appreciated.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
It is mostly fixed now.
If they fixed the critical problems after "beta", why didn't they put it in the patch notes? It would be way more important than most of the stuff in there such as changing the damage value for a unit.
The sensitivity was inversely proportional to your framerate, which caused the sensitivity to increase inconsistently by 2-16x during FPS drops, especially when you got into a fight - so a normal camera microadjustment would throw it halfway across the map, and actions like kiting where you continually move the screen would cause the sensitivity to lurch back and forth in between commands. This was the biggest issue and it was never acknowledged or mentioned in a patch note.
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Northern Ireland26468 Posts
On September 28 2024 00:21 townhouse wrote:bruh that article is talking about Epic Systems, a completely different company. i only said he was a dev at heart. he's still nerding out about programming languages that he's helping create to script UE. also, he stood up to Google/Apple's monopolistic app store practices, which the programming community certainly appreciated.
Jimmy gonna Jimmy
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On September 28 2024 00:15 ETisME wrote:
Spend a bit of time in SG today.
And a match just reminds me why it is so unready..
Walked my entire large supply infernal army to vanguard third because he's way out of position. The third has one bunker and a third of my army size, but the high ground messed up the entire army pathing and I can't even disengage
once I see what's going on.
Quit and uninstalled again. Such a horrible experience.
Many of those issues just make me wonder:
Does anybody at FGS even play their own game?
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EPT
