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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On September 23 2024 23:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2024 21:48 Cyro wrote:
Sim time is the biggest problem for high end systems and for other players on weaker PC's impacting your gameplay experience. The other stuff is quite heavy but playable - you can get a good baseline for how it runs by playing on an empty map with a few units. The sim time will increase as you build more units, and that per-unit cost is what really gets out of control. 100s of dead bodies created performance issues for the Borderlands games built with UE3 and UE4. They mitigated it by having a setting that allowed dead bodies to disappear after a user configured # of seconds. Show nested quote +On September 23 2024 08:35 Cyro wrote:
Snowplay is where the performance problem is, and it's not a part of UE5. The ingame metrics prove it If UE5 requires additional tech like Snowplay then I question FG's decision to go with UE5. No one is using UE5 for RTS so there is no pool of super experienced outside people who can parachute in and help them out. These things make Stormgate a difficult project to rescue.
Why is adding a layer atop UE5 worse than building an engine from scratch? Or using Unity and doing the same
My kid could probably make a competent FPS in either of those two engines. I mean it’d be shit but performant, it’s hard to fuck that up.
What other engine would they go with? Basically none of the big, frequently licensed commercial engines Im aware of are ready for an RTS out the box.
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Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor?
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Canada17708 Posts
On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor?
Great question. Another question is the licensing terms of the custom universes people make. Will Epic want a piece of the action with the claim that the World Editor is a superficial reskin of their existing UE5 engine.
These giant corps love litigation. Epic can really muck things up if they want.
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor?
Is it even hard though?
The thing that prevents remapping right now is being locked to Stormgate’s grid variant. Which was their call to pursue in the first place, and I and many others hypothesise a sub-optimal initial implementation is what’s making it ‘difficult’ now.
On September 25 2024 02:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor? Great question. Another question is the licensing terms of the custom universes people make. Will Epic want a piece of the action with the claim that the World Editor is a superficial reskin of their existing UE5 engine. These giant corps love litigation. Epic can really muck things up if they want.
I don’t see why they would want to. Let’s assume in a hypothetical universe the Snowplay layer + UE5 combo works as intended (finally) an off the shelf RTS engine good to go.
UE5 would immediately be the best option for many a future RTS project. Epic quite like money. It seems like it would suit all parties. I’m not sure if similar modules or layers others have made that others have wanted to reuse, and if that’s caused conflict with Epic but I haven’t heard of any
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As someone who doesn't understand all the coding involved, I remember how baffled I was playing my first game almost a year ago now during the alpha, and having "build" be on "Z". And then realizing everything was a grid and it was (at the time) unchangeable.
And then the game being released like that also. It must be a big task or else I'm sure they would've done it, you'd think. It's a pretty popular request, especially amongst top players.
Of course I'm now 100% used to it and don't mind it at all. It makes me barely know some of the building names, I just know that production buildings are D (barracks), F (factory) and G (starport), with C being tier 1 upgrades and V being tier 2. It's the same with all races, but don't ask me what any of the structures are called!
Switching back and forth with SC2 is also fine - but "space bar" being select all in SG messes me up.
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On September 25 2024 03:30 SoleSteeler wrote:
As someone who doesn't understand all the coding involved, I remember how baffled I was playing my first game almost a year ago now during the alpha, and having "build" be on "Z". And then realizing everything was a grid and it was (at the time) unchangeable.
And then the game being released like that also. It must be a big task or else I'm sure they would've done it, you'd think. It's a pretty popular request, especially amongst top players.
Of course I'm now 100% used to it and don't mind it at all. It makes me barely know some of the building names, I just know that production buildings are D (barracks), F (factory) and G (starport), with C being tier 1 upgrades and V being tier 2. It's the same with all races, but don't ask me what any of the structures are called!
Switching back and forth with SC2 is also fine - but "space bar" being select all in SG messes me up.
I couldn’t be bothered getting used to it
My hotkey layout is vaguely similar, albeit it’s sorta influenced by my FPS WASD layouts rather than having things in discrete rows.
So, ironically having independently come up with something quite similar, but different enough it’s incredibly irritating to play. Same buttons, about 50% are basically the same, 50% are different and I can’t remap. I use Q as a control group for example
I don’t see anything in UE5 that dictates you have to lock things to a particular grid layout, so I think that’s a bad design choice FG made, and the difficulty they speak of is working around the initial bad choice
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On September 25 2024 03:30 SoleSteeler wrote:
As someone who doesn't understand all the coding involved, I remember how baffled I was playing my first game almost a year ago now during the alpha, and having "build" be on "Z". And then realizing everything was a grid and it was (at the time) unchangeable.
And then the game being released like that also. It must be a big task or else I'm sure they would've done it, you'd think. It's a pretty popular request, especially amongst top players.
Of course I'm now 100% used to it and don't mind it at all. It makes me barely know some of the building names, I just know that production buildings are D (barracks), F (factory) and G (starport), with C being tier 1 upgrades and V being tier 2. It's the same with all races, but don't ask me what any of the structures are called!
Switching back and forth with SC2 is also fine - but "space bar" being select all in SG messes me up. I have some programming knowledge, tho not in UE. Your going to have a hard time convincing me that UE does not support customizable hotkeys when a first year student can manage it in whatever coding language they started with.
There hasn't been an valid excuse since we stopped running games off of floppy disks. There sure as hell is none in 2024.
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Downloaded it yesterday, tried out and I really like it in some weird way. It's as slow as WC3, feels like SC2 but it's far too complicated for a beginner. I feel like I can't learn even the basics for 5h, and having played 6y of wc3 and 12y of sc2 shouldn't be this hard.
Hotkeys are a mess, selecting the workers to make multiple buildings drags some random ones from god know which base and you cannot even cancel, UI should be copied from sc2.
I hope they'll fix this a bit
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On September 25 2024 19:22 followZeRoX wrote:
Downloaded it yesterday, tried out and I really like it in some weird way. It's as slow as WC3, feels like SC2 but it's far too complicated for a beginner. I feel like I can't learn even the basics for 5h, and having played 6y of wc3 and 12y of sc2 shouldn't be this hard.
Hotkeys are a mess, selecting the workers to make multiple buildings drags some random ones from god know which base and you cannot even cancel, UI should be copied from sc2.
I hope they'll fix this a bit
You can just do it the SC2 way and it still works
Quick build IMO creates more problems than it solves for a semi-competent RTS player, but perhaps proper newbies can get some value.
Quick macro is pretty damn decent, hotkey issues aside. I think they need to give you individual rallies for each category, but that aside it’s a solid QoL improvement
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I don't use quick build (except for Celestial obviously) or quick macro, but I love having upgrades on R and T 
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Beating a dead horse, but performance makes this game unplayable for me. Even setting the game to 30 fps to mess around vs the AI quickly has my CPU making a disturbing amount of noise once a small battle ensues.
Like, isn't the whole point of RTS to have a shitload of units on the screen? Why even make this game?
Meanwhile my comp purrs like a kitten when playing Vampire Survivors, a frickin JavaScript game made by one dude in his spare time, that has a bazillion units on the screen.
I recall playing Aeon of Strife as a kid in BW with infinite units streaming across the map, when CPUs were potatoes compared to what we have today. 20 years later and the latest RTS can barely handle a handful of units slowly pecking away at each other. What the freakin crap.
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Canada17708 Posts
On September 25 2024 03:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2024 02:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor? Great question. Another question is the licensing terms of the custom universes people make. Will Epic want a piece of the action with the claim that the World Editor is a superficial reskin of their existing UE5 engine. These giant corps love litigation. Epic can really muck things up if they want. I don’t see why they would want to. Let’s assume in a hypothetical universe the Snowplay layer + UE5 combo works as intended (finally) an off the shelf RTS engine good to go. UE5 would immediately be the best option for many a future RTS project. Epic quite like money. It seems like it would suit all parties. I’m not sure if similar modules or layers others have made that others have wanted to reuse, and if that’s caused conflict with Epic but I haven’t heard of any
the devil will be in the details. if Epic thinks FG has not transformed UE5 enough and thinks FG is taking too big of a cut they will step in. Epic wants a direct relationship with UE5 developers. Epic does not want to go through a middle man. UE5 is not just a revenue source for Epic it is a source of control.
We mainly use C# and C++ at my shop. When we do this M$ loves us and offers amazing support. Microsoft HATES that we will sometimes use Visual Foxpro even though it is a Microsoft product and entirely an M$ project. There is no "per seat" license fee with Foxpro and data encryption is not done by M$. Foxpro offers far less control to M$.
It is not just money that M$ wants from its developers... it is not just money M$ wants from my customers ... it is control of the creative app building space. I'm 95%+ sure Epic is the exact same way. Any one who threatens that control on a large scale will draw the attention of the big guys at Epic. Now if this thing only has 3 people making 1 project every 2 years Epic won't notice or care. However, I'm pretty sure FG wants their World BUilder to be as common as the SC1, WC3, and SC2 world builders. Epic is going to have something to say about it.
FG is papering over this whole thing while appealing to our nostalgia and memory of how amazing the Brood War and SC2 world building experience was.
All this said, I do not think the World Builder ever gets off the ground.
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Epic prints money through Fortnite, I doubt they care about pinching pennies from UE. Tim Sweeney is a dev at heart and has given very generous terms to users of UE. That's the last thing FG has to worry about at this point.
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Canada17708 Posts
On September 26 2024 00:21 townhouse wrote:
Epic prints money through Fortnite, I doubt they care about pinching pennies from UE. Tim Sweeney is a dev at heart and has given very generous terms to users of UE. That's the last thing FG has to worry about at this point.
They always start off with generous terms. Same thing happened with "dev at heart" Bill Gates and Visual Studio. This "dev at heart" thing is part of their marketing sales pitch. Visual Studio is all about control of the creative space even when "dev at heart" Bill Gates ran things. The greater the market share the more they tighten things up.
However, I do not see the World Builder ever getting off the ground any way.
Tim Sweeney: the nice guy billionaire!
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
Do Epic take a cut out of micro transactions from every UE game already or what?
Frost Giant aren’t really doing much other folks haven’t done many, many times, I can’t see it being a big source of friction.
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On September 25 2024 03:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor? Is it even hard though? The thing that prevents remapping right now is being locked to Stormgate’s grid variant. Which was their call to pursue in the first place, and I and many others hypothesise a sub-optimal initial implementation is what’s making it ‘difficult’ now.
They simply didn't realise it would be such a big issue for people. They've said so themselves. It was a low priority, to be completed in the future after finalising the UI. It took relentless demanding from playtesters to get any degree of customisation, and the devs had to go out of their way/plan in order to do it.
They used grid because it's the most intuitive layout for beginners and easiest to learn with keys on the command card mirroring the keyboard, and being naturally similar to moba/fps layouts. They were definitely correct in choosing that, but the problem is that beginners aren't playing the game, at least not yet. The playerbase for early access is entirely RTS nerds, and they want to play with their exact sc2 layout. Had FG known this, they would have certainly implemented it from the ground.
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On September 26 2024 10:48 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2024 03:00 WombaT wrote:On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor? Is it even hard though? The thing that prevents remapping right now is being locked to Stormgate’s grid variant. Which was their call to pursue in the first place, and I and many others hypothesise a sub-optimal initial implementation is what’s making it ‘difficult’ now. They simply didn't realise it would be such a big issue for people. They've said so themselves. It was a low priority, to be completed in the future after finalising the UI. It took relentless demanding from playtesters to get any degree of customisation, and the devs had to go out of their way/plan in order to do it. They used grid because it's the most intuitive layout for beginners and easiest to learn with keys on the command card mirroring the keyboard, and being naturally similar to moba/fps layouts. They were definitely correct in choosing that, but the problem is that beginners aren't playing the game, at least not yet. The playerbase for early access is entirely RTS nerds, and they want to play with their exact sc2 layout. Had FG known this, they would have certainly implemented it from the ground.
I’ve been informed by quite a few different people that this was routinely flagged as an issue in the closed playtests and plenty of feedback was given there
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On September 26 2024 11:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2024 10:48 Fango wrote:On September 25 2024 03:00 WombaT wrote:On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor? Is it even hard though? The thing that prevents remapping right now is being locked to Stormgate’s grid variant. Which was their call to pursue in the first place, and I and many others hypothesise a sub-optimal initial implementation is what’s making it ‘difficult’ now. They simply didn't realise it would be such a big issue for people. They've said so themselves. It was a low priority, to be completed in the future after finalising the UI. It took relentless demanding from playtesters to get any degree of customisation, and the devs had to go out of their way/plan in order to do it. They used grid because it's the most intuitive layout for beginners and easiest to learn with keys on the command card mirroring the keyboard, and being naturally similar to moba/fps layouts. They were definitely correct in choosing that, but the problem is that beginners aren't playing the game, at least not yet. The playerbase for early access is entirely RTS nerds, and they want to play with their exact sc2 layout. Had FG known this, they would have certainly implemented it from the ground. I’ve been informed by quite a few different people that this was routinely flagged as an issue in the closed playtests and plenty of feedback was given there
The first closed playtest wasn't even a year ago, the game's been in development for 3 years. For most of development it wasn't even a thought. Devs are on record saying they were not aware it would be so important to people.
It was a very requested feature in the first playtest along with 100 other things, and the devs said it would eventually be implemented. It was more demanded in the second, third playtests, and eventually devs went out of their way to add some degree of customisation. Apparently the further customisation in the latest update took some major engineering time.
It's safe to say it just wasn't a priority for them. It was going to be something worked on after all the other UI work.
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
They’ve really actively courted Blizzard RTS fans in general, invited much the same cohort to their closed playtest.
Personal ‘I want my layout’ bias aside, I harp on about it because I think it illustrates a lot of the problems this project has had thus far. I just don’t really buy that this couldn’t have been foreseen and mitigated way sooner.
They shouldn’t even need feedback, although they did get it. You’d think given the clear positioning of this as a Blizz spiritual successor that they’d have their fingers on the pulse about that kind of thing anyway.
They had an eSports manager at one point but simultaneously didn’t realise custom hotkeys are a big deal? And it’s not just sweaty pros who like to tinker either
Aside from issues with accessibility as well, which can oft be overlooked. What’s irritating for me can render a game impossible to actually play for somebody else.
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On September 26 2024 11:29 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2024 11:04 WombaT wrote:On September 26 2024 10:48 Fango wrote:On September 25 2024 03:00 WombaT wrote:On September 24 2024 08:36 moomin22 wrote:
Just thinking, if it's hard to do hotkeys in unreal engine 5, how hard is it to do a whole editor? Is it even hard though? The thing that prevents remapping right now is being locked to Stormgate’s grid variant. Which was their call to pursue in the first place, and I and many others hypothesise a sub-optimal initial implementation is what’s making it ‘difficult’ now. They simply didn't realise it would be such a big issue for people. They've said so themselves. It was a low priority, to be completed in the future after finalising the UI. It took relentless demanding from playtesters to get any degree of customisation, and the devs had to go out of their way/plan in order to do it. They used grid because it's the most intuitive layout for beginners and easiest to learn with keys on the command card mirroring the keyboard, and being naturally similar to moba/fps layouts. They were definitely correct in choosing that, but the problem is that beginners aren't playing the game, at least not yet. The playerbase for early access is entirely RTS nerds, and they want to play with their exact sc2 layout. Had FG known this, they would have certainly implemented it from the ground. I’ve been informed by quite a few different people that this was routinely flagged as an issue in the closed playtests and plenty of feedback was given there The first closed playtest wasn't even a year ago, the game's been in development for 3 years. For most of development it wasn't even a thought. Devs are on record saying they were not aware it would be so important to people. It was a very requested feature in the first playtest along with 100 other things, and the devs said it would eventually be implemented. It was more demanded in the second, third playtests, and eventually devs went out of their way to add some degree of customisation. Apparently the further customisation in the latest update took some major engineering time. It's safe to say it just wasn't a priority for them. It was going to be something worked on after all the other UI work. Not being aware that people value customizable key binds is itself a massive red flag.
Its one of the biggest requests for every game that doesn't have it over the last decades. If you can't even figure that out what else did you miss?
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EPT
