EPTStormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 127
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17206 Posts
On June 07 2024 12:58 MegaBuster wrote: The tension between Uncapped and Frost Giant at this point is too much to handle. How can you tweet good luck to every single indie RTS that's come out for 4 years and not give DAVID KIM a fucking cheer? These fake nice secret sociopaths at Slop Giant, gosh darn! Remember that stuffed animal Gorilla that Avilo named "Kim Kong"  That poor thing really took an awful beating.David Kim is really smart. I hope the new game is great. I will definitely check it out. There is only so much time and money to go around. There are 25 RTS games on the way in 2024. In this video Stormgate is #23. RTS games are getting easier to make every year. RTS fans are lucky. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2623 Posts
On June 07 2024 14:07 LunarC wrote: Yeah this cinematic doesn't do it for me either. The first one was better. But perhaps this is a prelude to a playable campaign mission? Like a "hold off the enemy until the civilians evacuate the base" mission. That's the only way it makes sense to me. I think it'd annoy me less if they didn't feel like recycled ideas. It feels like they took the "Big hell portal thing" 1-1 from Stranger Things or Doom or a bunch of other things. The scene doesn't make me want to know about the universe, it makes me afraid I already know what that universe will hold. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2395 Posts
On June 07 2024 15:49 Fleetfeet wrote: I think it'd annoy me less if they didn't feel like recycled ideas. You could take the "Big hell portal thing" 1-1 from Stranger Things or Doom or a bunch of other things. The scene doesn't make me want to know about the universe, it makes me afraid I already know what that universe will hold. I think that's certainly some of it. Then again, much of the Blizzard stories that helped bring most of us to this website were also pretty basic, but they did come a lot earlier in the scheme of things. One note there is that we were younger back then too, what we've seen a million times is not what kids have seen a million times. I suspect however that it's also about quality of execution. Nearly all media we consume is constructed from tropes, but we don't tend to notice as much when we enjoy what we see. When we find what we see mediocre, not bad but not exciting, it can be hard to put precisely why into words but very easy to point to all the tropes we've seen before. | ||
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uummpaa
238 Posts
as for the artstyle vs tone issue (which is kinda bad in this case), i honestly think a more gritty look would just be vastly more expensive. smooth and comicy looks alright and is much cheaper to get right. as is the good ole "wearing a mask" trick because animating mouths is hard. also there was only one flying type in the cinematic that was more or less copy-pasted and not much variety. considering they are on a budget and that the artwork wont be as noticable in the actual game (i.e. what really matters), thats an ok choice id say | ||
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uummpaa
238 Posts
On June 07 2024 16:48 Turbovolver wrote: I think that's certainly some of it. Then again, much of the Blizzard stories that helped bring most of us to this website were also pretty basic, but they did come a lot earlier in the scheme of things. One note there is that we were younger back then too, what we've seen a million times is not what kids have seen a million times. I suspect however that it's also about quality of execution. Nearly all media we consume is constructed from tropes, but we don't tend to notice as much when we enjoy what we see. When we find what we see mediocre, not bad but not exciting, it can be hard to put precisely why into words but very easy to point to all the tropes we've seen before. just to add on that, there is a wide conception that there are only seven types of stories anyway, what makes them different is setting and characters. so even a generic story can still be told well | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7040 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17206 Posts
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Brutaxilos
United States2633 Posts
On June 07 2024 11:40 Fleetfeet wrote: I think they just misunderstood what people mean by "ball" tbh. In a strict sense it is singular army vs singular army, but it never feels like having one chunky a-move army on one hotkey. You CAN, but it isn't as efficient as a well controlled, well composed army. For the most part your army won't split up in wc3, and harass is uncommon outside of hero units, summons, and the occasional Siege Engine or Garg tactic... I get where they're coming from calling wc3 'ball vs ball' but wc3 doesn't fit the negative connotations that phrase holds. As for cinematic posted above, it does little to hype me. It looks like if the people that made the 3d star wars "Clone Wars" show got a hold of the Doom franchise and a minimal budget. Bro the Clone Wars show is beautiful (at least in the latter seasons). Don't compare it to this ugly cinematic lol. | ||
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iamperfection
United States9645 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Blink cloaked units that can kill any town hall in 5 seconds and automatically recall is wild. Remember tier 3 is gated by upgrading town halls as well (same as hatch/lair/hive in sc2) so it would be a huge setback to kill one. Will definitely be nerfed but it's nice to see some more out-there mechanics at least on the drawing board. | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States680 Posts
A bit of side tangent. around 15 mins in this video , The Valorant creator talks about how anti-cheat is first thing they think. I still have the same belief about I am really sad to see StormGate's anti cheat is lackluster in it's current state. It's fair to call me entitled because to most people this is not a problem, but for people who plays in GM/Master of any game, this is just stupidly annoying and easy to run into. I would still hope to see them kick up a gear on this. | ||
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uummpaa
238 Posts
On June 08 2024 02:18 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOfvfzyCfa0 A bit of side tangent. around 15 mins in this video , The Valorant creator talks about how anti-cheat is first thing they think. I still have the same belief about I am really sad to see StormGate's anti cheat is lackluster in it's current state. It's fair to call me entitled because to most people this is not a problem, but for people who plays in GM/Master of any game, this is just stupidly annoying and easy to run into. I would still hope to see them kick up a gear on this. with all fairness i think an anti cheat for a FPS is something different than for a RTS game. simply removing fog of war is HUGE here and in the end of the day exactly this information is always present somewhere on the RAM. i dont think any decently popular RTS is free from this problem since they are aiming for a valid PvP game i am sure they work on that as well (i remember a very early interview with FG talking about cheating) | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17206 Posts
That was supposed to be the big "ground breaking" feature of the game. | ||
Waxangel
United States33524 Posts
I find this kind of super-complex unit especially interesting in the context of the D.Kim/Uncapped game being revealed in a few hours. By this point I think we can completely disregard all of FG's prior "lower barrier to entry" rhetoric and see that it's actually the ultimate double-down on Blizzard-style RTS, stacking every layer of complexity from War3, SC2, SC2 co-op and adding even more of their own. It's such a contrast to the D.Kim RTS which is stripping away as many layers as possible until they reach what they consider the 'real' core' of Blizz RTS. Not a value judgment on either, but such an interesting way to see where people have gone from LotV. | ||
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Miragee
8626 Posts
On June 07 2024 16:48 uummpaa wrote: as for the artstyle vs tone issue (which is kinda bad in this case), i honestly think a more gritty look would just be vastly more expensive. smooth and comicy looks alright and is much cheaper to get right. While I think this holds some truth for 3D first person games (or similar) but not so much for top down games. For example, inXile made Wasteland 2 with a 3 mil budget from kickstarter and that game is as gritty as it gets. | ||
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Adico
14 Posts
On June 08 2024 04:25 Waxangel wrote: [...] At this point, I think we can completely disregard all of FG's prior "lower barrier to entry" rhetoric [...] I'm not sure about this. I can't say much due to NDA. But in the Steam next fest (elephant) version, there were two features that I think still show FG is looking to create on-ramps for new players. 1. IMO the most impactful is the macro menu. QWERT (Q for buildings, E for Basic units, etc). This lets you create new units and buildings without selecting a worker first or grouping your production buildings. You can still do that if you want, but it gives new players a simple way to start. 2. The Smart Grouping. Although it's pretty early stages, the idea of auto-creating groups of units based on certain criteria (like having all ground and air units in separate groups upon creation) is pretty neat for someone who may have never done groups and just F2/Spacebar their way through RTS. They also have said they are working on adding customization to it, so it's adjustable to what a player wants/needs. [More, but it's under NDA] I think these are pretty solid ways to get people into the meat of the game and give players clear ideas as to what they can practice next. If you use the macro menu 100% of the time, there will be occasions where it's clearly sub-optimal to do so. But instead of going all or nothing, you can start integrating more manual building or selection. The same applies to smart grouping; it helps 90% of players, but it's an obvious "first step" to do once you have the basics of the game down. In my opinion, the best on-ramp should be co-op. Playing with other people who hopefully already know the game well and can walk you through it will always be a far better teacher than any tutorial or bespoke feature. ---- As for the Graven itself. I think it looks a bit bloated with abilities; I wonder if it comes with them from the get-go in T3 or if there is some upgrade to unlock some of them. Overall, I can see how it fits the toolset of Vanguard in late fights, but we have yet to see any other T3 units, so it might be that this is like the "mage" of Vanguard and other T3 units are more focused on other aspects. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33524 Posts
On June 08 2024 04:57 Adico wrote: I'm not sure about this. I can't say much due to NDA. But in the Steam next fest (elephant) version, there were two features that I think still show FG is looking to create on-ramps for new players. 1. IMO the most impactful is the macro menu. QWERT (Q for buildings, E for Basic units, etc). This lets you create new units and buildings without selecting a worker first or grouping your production buildings. You can still do that if you want, but it gives new players a simple way to start. 2. The Smart Grouping. Although it's pretty early stages, the idea of auto-creating groups of units based on certain criteria (like having all ground and air units in separate groups upon creation) is pretty neat for someone who may have never done groups and just F2/Spacebar their way through RTS. They also have said they are working on adding customization to it, so it's adjustable to what a player wants/needs. [More, but it's under NDA] I think these are pretty solid ways to get people into the meat of the game and give players clear ideas as to what they can practice next. If you use the macro menu 100% of the time, there will be occasions where it's clearly sub-optimal to do so. But instead of going all or nothing, you can start integrating more manual building or selection. The same applies to smart grouping; it helps 90% of players, but it's an obvious "first step" to do once you have the basics of the game down. In my opinion, the best on-ramp should be co-op. Playing with other people who hopefully already know the game well and can walk you through it will always be a far better teacher than any tutorial or bespoke feature. ---- As for the Graven itself. I think it looks a bit bloated with abilities; I wonder if it comes with them from the get-go in T3 or if there is some upgrade to unlock some of them. Overall, I can see how it fits the toolset of Vanguard in late fights, but we have yet to see any other T3 units, so it might be that this is like the "mage" of Vanguard and other T3 units are more focused on other aspects. They've made further improvements on SC2 in terms of removing the MOST menial elements of the harvest-build-train foundation of RTS, which will help people get in at the most basic level of the game and enjoy low-difficulty campaign/co-op mode. But when I look at it from a primarily 1v1 point of view, it's retained all of the complex systems from prev Blizzard RTS that you need to learn to play beyond the most basic level, and then added new systems on top of it. Having worker counters on resources doesn't remove the complexity of having to optimize worker allocation, having a fastbuild UI doesn't remove the complexity of mandatory simcity at the competitive level, having easier skillcasting from a single control group doesn't remove the complexity of needing to effectively use 4+ skills in a fight, having visible respawn timers over creep camps doesn't remove the complexity of having to play around them... Then we have top bar abilities, buff/debuff/dispel mechanics, totally new faction systems like white health for infernal, etc. And I'm not saying this is bad—a huge part of competitive 1v1 in prior Blizz RTS is learning, mastering, and optimizing these systems all at the same time. I've been thoroughly entertained watching players in the beta incorporate these elements into their play. It's just that the new unit reveal for Stormgate made me take a step back, look at the game as a whole, and think 'this has so much STUFF in it, how did anyone ever think it would lower the barrier to entry beyond THE most basic level?' I know that at the end of the day, competitive 1v1 has never been the biggest audience for RTS games, but considering that 1v1 has been the vast majority of what has been revealed so far, it's hard not to focus on this part of it. | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States680 Posts
On June 08 2024 04:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Tim Morten's previous cancelled C&C Generals 2 RTS had the info only on the server. it was not in the ram. That was supposed to be the big "ground breaking" feature of the game. That's fair, I am sure they have thought through on this issue, just didn't feel any confidence as a customer myself seeing the early iterations. Although game itself is actually quite fun to play. | ||
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Adico
14 Posts
On June 08 2024 05:39 Waxangel wrote: They've made further improvements on SC2 in terms of removing the MOST menial elements of the harvest-build-train foundation of RTS, which will help people get in at the most basic level of the game and enjoy low-difficulty campaign/co-op mode. But when I look at it from a primarily 1v1 point of view, it's retained all of the complex systems from prev Blizzard RTS that you need to learn to play beyond the most basic level, and then added new systems on top of it. Having worker counters on resources doesn't remove the complexity of having to optimize worker allocation, having a fastbuild UI doesn't remove the complexity of mandatory simcity at the competitive level, having easier skillcasting from a single control group doesn't remove the complexity of needing to effectively use 4+ skills in a fight, having visible respawn timers over creep camps doesn't remove the complexity of having to play around them... Then we have top bar abilities, buff/debuff/dispel mechanics, totally new faction systems like white health for infernal, etc. And I'm not saying this is bad—a huge part of competitive 1v1 in prior Blizz RTS is learning, mastering, and optimizing these systems all at the same time. I've been thoroughly entertained watching players in the beta incorporate these elements into their play. It's just that the new unit reveal for Stormgate made me take a step back, look at the game as a whole, and think 'this has so much STUFF in it, how did anyone ever think it would lower the barrier to entry beyond THE most basic level?' I know that at the end of the day, competitive 1v1 has never been the biggest audience for RTS games, but considering that 1v1 has been the vast majority of what has been revealed so far, it's hard not to focus on this part of it. I think that's very fair. However, I would argue that every 1v1 competitive player has to start somewhere, and as you said, that part of the community will always be smaller than the general audience, especially considering the Free to Play model. Ensuring that everyone who downloads the game and decides to jump into a 1v1 match first is not utterly lost seems to me like a good way to then try to convert them to regular 1v1 players. I think FG focussed on showcasing a lot of the 1v1 elements because, for one, that is mostly spoiler-free. It's hard to spoil yourself about the story or lore by just playing 1v1s. Second, the 1v1 scene is very passionate. So, the strategy to show the elements those most passionate players will be interested in from the get-go is a good idea (IMO). Thirdly, its a good testbed for core systems. It could be done with co-op or 2v2/3v3, but if you can do the same with 1v1, then why not simplify it? | ||
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