Mario Luigi Peach Wario Donkey Kong Diddy Kong Yoshi Link Zelda Samus Pit Ice Climbers Kirby MetaKnight King Dedede Fox Pikachu Pokemon Trainer Olimar Lucas Sonic Bowser Snake Ike
TOON LINK -Looks like a clone of link in terms of moves, but I could be wrong. GANONDORF -Some moves have been changed, it looks like. I know his up B has been changed so it's more like an upwards dash, it seems? Based on videos. ROBOT -Based on the old nintendo peripheral ROB. Don't ask, I don't know. CAPTAIN FALCON -Show me your moves! JIGGLYPUFF -Haven't seen much of her. NESS -Similar to Lucas. Lucas' PK Fire shoots straight horizontal, and he has PK Freeze instead of PK Flash. His grab is different, i think, and some of his A moves are. LUCARIO -From Pokemon Diamond/Pearl. Apparently really popular in Japan. Basically replaces mewtwo, but a few changes like energy ball pathing, dash replacing teleport, A moves, ect. FALCO -Haven't seen much gameplay of him. Same FS as fox though... MARTH -B move got changed from shield breaker to some charge stab thing. GAME AND WATCH -No idea on this one. Hopefully more playable? WOLF O'DONNELL -Star Fox's nemesis. Looks to be similar to Fox, with faster B up, slower but stronger laser, and an angled side B. FS is the same though.... (disappointing)
So, basically. only 4 melee characters are not returning: Roy, Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Mewtwo. Really, the only one I'm going to miss is Mewtwo.
Tons of gameplay vids online, if you bother to search...
*********Original Post************ (I forget) Well, after the initial release date threads about Super Smash Brothers Brawl, I noticed that there has been no mention of other developments. Even though most of the attention is already on another upcoming game (SC2, and rightly so), I think the developments of Brawl should still be followed :3 Talk about the new characters, stages, items, or whatever and how cool they are ! :3
Anyway, since the announcement of the release date of Brawl, Dec. 3, lots of tidbits have been introduced; some that are major, some not so much.
-The adventure mode storyline (Subspace Emissary) has been somewhat revealed (although you really arent' SSing for the storyline). Purple globs fall from Meta Knight's ship, which is hovering over the original stadium, and form into robots. The original dudes start ganging up... and that's all. There is a short clip on the site that shows this.
-Final Smashes are elaborated on more. -Samus: Shoots a giant beam from her gun. After this, her armor falls off and she becomes zero suit samus. Currently, this seems to be the only way to change into her zero suit mode. -Donkey Kong: Plays the Bongos! -Pit: A giant goddess appears, and then lots of ugly angels come and stab your enemies.
-Pokemon/Assist trophies have been expanded to Deoxys (pokemon), who shoots hyper beam, and Knuckle Joe (kirby), who uh, punches.
-New items include the pitfall, which does an effect similar to DK's side B, the Franklin Badge (Earthbound), which is like passive reflector, and Smoke Bomb, which releases colored smoke.
-New Techiques (can be done by any character) include Footstool jump, which allows you to meteor smash someone by jumping on them. I imagine it's hard to aim though...
However... the main reason I wanted to make this post was because of the characters.... -Yoshi is back! Apparently, his egg toss will now act as a third jump...
-Newcomer: Ike! (fire emblem). He uses a double handed sword in one hand... His two known attacks so far are a charge called eruption, and a recovery that acts a lot like Kirby's final cutter... except it shoots no projectile and he does not flinch while doing it... which matters a lot!
and my favorite...
-Newcomer: Pokemon Trainer! He doesn't actually fight.... he kinda sits in the background. However, he fights with three pokemon, which he can switch out during combat by using down B (like sheik). The pokemon are Charizard, squirtle, and ivysaur. Apparently, they have a new measure, which is stamina, which somehow is afffected by how often you change them out and how often you use them. Not much else is known about this yet.
Anyway, wow. I really like the idea of Pokémon trainer. So far, we haven't seen any carbon copies of the same moves in the characters released so far. I especially like how they're trying to make more of them distinct, with different playstyles. Although the items will most definitely not be used in competitive levels, they are set to make casual playing even more interesting. Although the stages introduced so far are interesting, well. There seem to be too many moving stages and ones that are easily destroyed. Everyone knew how much fun Icicle mountain was to play in the SSBM.. (not.) I hope they introduce more stationary stages that are less on sheer spectacle and more on practicality.
But altogether, I like the variety in everything that is shown at this point! I'm definitely looking forward to new announcements almost as much as SC2, even though they come tantalizingly slow (still praying for Sonic!)
**************EDIT 1****************
New Characters!
Peach: Still has toad and that umbrella, apparently
Diddy Kong: Peanut gun and barrel jump.
*************EDIT 2******************* (Oct. 10)
New character update!
Ice Climber: Look at the detail on that parka :3 Prepare for more little-kid yelping!
Lucas: From Mother 3. Does this mean Ness is out?
...and...
SONICC!!! WOOOO!!! Movies on the site.
************Edit 3************** (Oct. 25)
King Dedede!
Yes, from the Kirby series! Apparrently he's going to handle similar to Bowser in which he will be powerful, yet heavy and slow. But he looks so chubby and happy!
Ship those Kirby games, Sakurai!
**********Edit 4***************** (Jan. 9)
New Character Update!
...Captain Olimar! Without the five multicolored Pikmin who follow him, Captain Olimar kind of reminds me of how Game and Watch looked in SSBM....
Not much other information about him so far though....
...heehee, the purple pikmin looks like an eggplant....
Ike? I guess he has two games now, more than anybody else in FE can say except Marth.
edit: just for aesthetic purposes, a non-sword user would have been nice, but who else would they have used? Ephraim? Hector? Celica? Even Levin or Sety or somebody like that?
On August 14 2007 02:12 Myrmidon wrote: Ike? I guess he has two games now, more than anybody else in FE can say except Marth.
If you only count Lords. Ike looks pretty bad ass now, I went back to Path of Radiance a couple days ago and he looks like a fifteen year old kid. T_T
The Pokemon Trainer seems a really neat concept, I hope it works well enough to be playable (I certainly didn't know anybody who could play the Ice Climbers). Is the Pokemon Trainer based on the RBY trainer sprite?, I can't tell.
On August 14 2007 03:42 Last Romantic wrote: ahahhaha
yeah marth and roy inclusion = marketing ploy
;o
Only Roy was a marketing ploy. The last Fire Emblem game with Marth in it was released for the SNES in 1993. Roy was put in to advertise FE6 which came out in 2002 on the GBA.
On August 14 2007 03:11 exo6yte wrote: Oh boy, a shallow marketing gimmick disguised as a poor attempt of a fighting game! Nintendo fails.
And exactly how was SSBM a "poor attempt at a fighting game"?
First off, it's a shallow marketing gimmick. Second, SSBM is to real fighting games as WC3 is to real RTS. It's noobified so casualfags can pull off extremely difficult moves that only people with real skill should be able to pull off.
On August 14 2007 03:11 exo6yte wrote: Oh boy, a shallow marketing gimmick disguised as a poor attempt of a fighting game! Nintendo fails.
And exactly how was SSBM a "poor attempt at a fighting game"?
First off, it's a shallow marketing gimmick. Second, SSBM is to real fighting games as WC3 is to real RTS. It's noobified so casualfags can pull off extremely difficult moves that only people with real skill should be able to pull off.
Examples of "extremely difficult moves that noobs can pull off?" There are plenty of pro strats that a casual player will never be able to do without spending at least a few hours in training mode. Perhaps you're just not open minded enough that a variation of the traditional "fighter" genre could -actually- be a good game.
Note that being an obvious marketing tool DOES NOT make a game a gimmick, nor does it make it bad.
On August 14 2007 03:42 Last Romantic wrote: ahahhaha
yeah marth and roy inclusion = marketing ploy
;o
Only Roy was a marketing ploy. The last Fire Emblem game with Marth in it was released for the SNES in 1993. Roy was put in to advertise FE6 which came out in 2002 on the GBA.
didn't they repackage fire emblem games for american release? not just for fuin no tsurugi, but older ones as well?
First off, it's a shallow marketing gimmick. Second, SSBM is to real fighting games as WC3 is to real RTS. It's noobified so casualfags can pull off extremely difficult moves that only people with real skill should be able to pull off.
lol? There's no difficult moves in ANY fighting game. Even shit like 720 degrees and Geese's Raging Storm are fairly easy. A good fighting game isn't defined by having difficult moves to pull off, lmao. Shows how much fighting games you've played.
On August 14 2007 03:11 exo6yte wrote: Oh boy, a shallow marketing gimmick disguised as a poor attempt of a fighting game! Nintendo fails.
And exactly how was SSBM a "poor attempt at a fighting game"?
First off, it's a shallow marketing gimmick. Second, SSBM is to real fighting games as WC3 is to real RTS. It's noobified so casualfags can pull off extremely difficult moves that only people with real skill should be able to pull off.
you really have no idea what you're talking about
first, SSBM's skill depth is pretty ridiculous, if you ever play someone really good you'd understand how hard it is for new players to be good
second, your analogy is also stupid because warcraft3 requires skill too. yes, the game is flawed, unwatchable, and inferior to brood war, but theres no doubting that it requires skill to master.
On August 14 2007 03:11 exo6yte wrote: Oh boy, a shallow marketing gimmick disguised as a poor attempt of a fighting game! Nintendo fails.
And exactly how was SSBM a "poor attempt at a fighting game"?
First off, it's a shallow marketing gimmick. Second, SSBM is to real fighting games as WC3 is to real RTS. It's noobified so casualfags can pull off extremely difficult moves that only people with real skill should be able to pull off.
you really have no idea what you're talking about
first, SSBM's skill depth is pretty ridiculous, if you ever play someone really good you'd understand how hard it is for new players to be good
second, your analogy is also stupid because warcraft3 requires skill too. yes, the game is flawed, unwatchable, and inferior to brood war, but theres no doubting that it requires skill to master.
QFT, this guy needs to watch Ken's matches. Ken's Marth pwns. Is he out of his slump?
On August 14 2007 03:11 exo6yte wrote: Oh boy, a shallow marketing gimmick disguised as a poor attempt of a fighting game! Nintendo fails.
You suck.
The entire SSB series is an excellent fighter series because it is unique and doesn't follow what every other fighter does. It adds a twist, and all of the mechanics shed new light onto an already somewhat tired genre. Fresh ideas are good, and the amount of depth within SSB is also quite complex.
SSBM is a great game in the same respect as SC; it takes a long time to get good at, yet it is still fun for the casual player who doesn't play much.
Whatever Ninty adds into the series is probably good, because they know this series rocks.
Edit: Just look how intense this is (Ken [Marth] v. Bombsoldier [Falco])
This game takes tons of skill and mindgames. Learn before you comment pls.
On August 14 2007 03:42 Last Romantic wrote: ahahhaha
yeah marth and roy inclusion = marketing ploy
;o
Only Roy was a marketing ploy. The last Fire Emblem game with Marth in it was released for the SNES in 1993. Roy was put in to advertise FE6 which came out in 2002 on the GBA.
didn't they repackage fire emblem games for american release? not just for fuin no tsurugi, but older ones as well?
Nah, there's some Wii Virtual Console releases of the two older SNES ones (Monshou no Nazo and Seisen no Keifu aka FE3 and FE4), but that's only for Japan. I don't think Fuuin no Tsurugi has any kind of official stateside release?
I think either you're confused by unofficial (although pretty much functionally complete complete) translation patches for FE4-6 or I'm horribly misinformed.
i'm really disappointed that i haven't seen any mention of peach in ssbb. if the floating mechanic is taken out that'd kinda suck ;( (or maybe she's in and i haven't noticed?)
and yeah, saying the game has no hard moves/techniques is just ignorance on the part of whoever said it. even something as simple as consistently shdl'ing with fox is pretty impossible to pick up within a few hours, let alone minutes. not to mention actually using it in battle is a whole other story. and when you wanna start moving with it in battle, then it actually gets difficult. and this is one of the easier things to learn. =)
On August 14 2007 08:07 JeeJee wrote: i'm really disappointed that i haven't seen any mention of peach in ssbb. if the floating mechanic is taken out that'd kinda suck ;( (or maybe she's in and i haven't noticed?)
and yeah, saying the game has no hard moves/techniques is just ignorance on the part of whoever said it. even something as simple as consistently shdl'ing with fox is pretty impossible to pick up within a few hours, let alone minutes. not to mention actually using it in battle is a whole other story. and when you wanna start moving with it in battle, then it actually gets difficult. and this is one of the easier things to learn. =)
Peach HAS been "confirmed" unofficially though. She appears as a main character in one of the trailers, so you're in luck!
On August 14 2007 08:07 JeeJee wrote: i'm really disappointed that i haven't seen any mention of peach in ssbb. if the floating mechanic is taken out that'd kinda suck ;( (or maybe she's in and i haven't noticed?)
and yeah, saying the game has no hard moves/techniques is just ignorance on the part of whoever said it. even something as simple as consistently shdl'ing with fox is pretty impossible to pick up within a few hours, let alone minutes. not to mention actually using it in battle is a whole other story. and when you wanna start moving with it in battle, then it actually gets difficult. and this is one of the easier things to learn. =)
Peach HAS been "confirmed" unofficially though. She appears as a main character in one of the trailers, so you're in luck!
really? :O!! link to said trailer? (im looking myself atm but maybe speed up the process)
edit: nvm
!!! still doesn't mean the floating mechanic stays but at least peach is in <3
On August 14 2007 07:19 ArC_man wrote: lol? There's no difficult moves in ANY fighting game
Oh, so you can do this with your hands tied to your balls? Yeah, didn't think so. Real fighting games have a line that clearly defines the newbs and the gods. Most people could not pull that sort of shit off if they played for hundreds of years.
On August 14 2007 07:19 ArC_man wrote: lol? There's no difficult moves in ANY fighting game
Oh, so you can do this with your hands tied to your balls? Yeah, didn't think so. Real fighting games have a line that clearly defines the newbs and the gods. Most people could not pull that sort of shit off if they played for hundreds of years.
Yes, because that sort of thing happens in every single match of what you consider a "real fighting game". Watch some Smash, or, better yet, actually try playing it at a high level, and then comment.
On August 14 2007 07:19 ArC_man wrote: lol? There's no difficult moves in ANY fighting game
Oh, so you can do this with your hands tied to your balls? Yeah, didn't think so. Real fighting games have a line that clearly defines the newbs and the gods. Most people could not pull that sort of shit off if they played for hundreds of years.
Yes, because that sort of thing happens in every single match of what you consider a "real fighting game". Watch some Smash, or, better yet, actually try playing it at a high level, and then comment.
Did I ever say it happens in every single match? No. You're being a dumbass. ArC_man said that there are no difficult moves in ANY fighting game, and I proved him wrong.
yes because linking to a vid of the infamous Ken parry vs Chun Li assures that you have some form of credibility lawlz.
And most people COULD pull that parry off if they played for a month straight with the right training. The reason why most people cant do it is because they never get to a level high enough where they have to play in a situation like that.
Does anybody know how this is going to work with the Wii remotes/nunchucks (not enough buttons)? Am I going to have to purchase the actual controller...?
all i care about is that the controls are like smash and that it is as fast as smash.
to the guys saying it sucks and is no real fight game: play the game before u judge. its not only amazing and multiple times more fun in multiplayer then lets say DoA or Tekken, it also requires at least as much skill if not more.
there is a reason why there are tournaments. and there is a reason why good players never lose to a bad player. even if u would train the 6 months straight and after that play me for 5k$ i would still beat u in a bo100 without losing one match.
some standart moves like wavedashing require perfect timing within a time window as small as 1/12 of seconds on some characters.perfect executed u could shine 4 times a second, but no one can do that. there is much to master in this game. just because it doesnt look as serious as others doesnt mean its easy.
On August 14 2007 17:14 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Does anybody know how this is going to work with the Wii remotes/nunchucks (not enough buttons)? Am I going to have to purchase the actual controller...?
On August 14 2007 17:03 Ace wrote: And most people COULD pull that parry off if they played for a month straight with the right training. The reason why most people cant do it is because they never get to a level high enough where they have to play in a situation like that.
I MUST GET A WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII! FUCK XBOX. FUCK PS3. FUCK A BETTER COMPUTER. I WANT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gosh I remember the days when me and my bro would just play SSb64 alllllllllll day when our parents weren't home. Too bad i didnt get a Gamecube for SSBM (xbox and halo 1 (i'll take this moment to say halo 2 sucks) was captivating me then)
exo6yte i don't really see what you're trying to say =/ your original 'argument' was that ssbm was a shitty game where everyone could easily perform the hardest of moves. this has been shown to be false by several people. what are you trying to say now with your full parry comparison and personal attacks?
On August 15 2007 12:37 JeeJee wrote: exo6yte i don't really see what you're trying to say =/ your original 'argument' was that ssbm was a shitty game where everyone could easily perform the hardest of moves. this has been shown to be false by several people. what are you trying to say now with your full parry comparison and personal attacks?
what is that guy talkin bout anyways.
exo i play u in 6 motnhs for whatever money u want bo10 starting at a 0-4 disadvantage for me.deal?
simple facts to prove how hard ssbm is :
tekken which you maybe acknowledge as a real fightinging game need inputs where u have usually 0,5-1,5 secs time to execute them- most of these inputs consist of simple 1 button presses. even counter and chicken moves have usually a almost 1 second window to execute them.
compare that to to ssbm.
standart wavedash(the main ground "trick" whcih is used to move around fast) is on some characters a time frame of 6 frames. with the game running at 60frames/sec thats 1/10 of a sec to input this. this involves 2 buttons and a accurate joystick control.
standart shuffled laser
similar time window. inputs this time, a VERY short tab on the jump button(to short hop. very short means on fox if u ur longer then 5 frames on the buttons,read 1/12 second, this move fails), while rising shoot,at the exact peak press down to fast fall, and L cancel to shorten the recovery time or directly follow up with a wavedash(see up). all this very precise input in less then 0,8 secs.
and those are standart moves. nothing esp hard.
get ssbm and try to do this simple standart move on fox. if u manage to do it more then 50% of the time in less then 3months training i give u 100$.
On August 14 2007 07:19 ArC_man wrote: lol? There's no difficult moves in ANY fighting game
Oh, so you can do this with your hands tied to your balls? Yeah, didn't think so. Real fighting games have a line that clearly defines the newbs and the gods. Most people could not pull that sort of shit off if they played for hundreds of years.
actually, if you think about the parry, you just have to tap the joy so it can be done under the conditions you wrote.
@bemannerdupenner since when do you lcancel b moves? =/
as for difficult moves in smash.. there are frame-perfect moves in smash, although not too many that are widely used. first that springs to mind is samus' swd (after casting bomb, hold one horizontal direction on frame 41, and the opposite on frame 42, let go by frame 43(?) for maximum length. dunno when you have to let go actually, but it's pretty quick too). or pivot, when you're dash dancing you have 1 frame in which you can execute a non-dash attack or powershield (this isn't actually frame perfect in all cases but pretty close for most, and actually is for some) list goes on and on..
i think the real problem with smash is that it requires a lot of different kinds of precision. firstly there's the obvious button clicking precision (teching 1/3 of a second before u hit the ground, can't mash it because you can only tech once a second if you miss; not holding down the jump button for more than 1/12th of a second for shorthopping, etc.) then, there's the joystick precision (moonwalking with falcon, wavedashing/landing in general, pivot, DI etc) then, there's button mashing, and it's not as easy as you think. try getting a full height on dr. mario's tornado as a start point (you know it's a full height if you can do it from the ground, then do a double-jump in the air before you fall down). if you can do that, move onto luigi's tornado which requires i believe 17presses per second for a full height or something like that then there's the fact that some buttons aren't really buttons but are triggers (this is more of acontroller fault, but still.. i hate the L and R buttons) and the depth at which you press them affects the move you can/can't do.
as opposed to looking at that parry video (i have never played the game so correct me if i'm wrong on this), it looks like just tapping a button or joystick in a direction when the attack hits you? I'm assuming they give you a little bit of leeway to do it (I'm just pulling a number out of my ass and saying +/- 3 frames), and the kicks don't come at constant intervals which makes it slightly difficult. if that's true (once again i've never played, so inform me if not) then it's not that difficult since it's just timing and nothing more. that's not to say i can do it in a day, but there are (arguably) harder things in smash
Has anyone ever played Guilty Gear XX by the way? i want to hear some opinions on that game, I heard it's one of the most balanced fighting games out there, even with extremely different characters. it also looks fun, too bad i lost the disc before even getting to play it xD.
On August 15 2007 12:37 JeeJee wrote: exo6yte i don't really see what you're trying to say =/ your original 'argument' was that ssbm was a shitty game where everyone could easily perform the hardest of moves. this has been shown to be false by several people. what are you trying to say now with your full parry comparison and personal attacks?
what is that guy talkin bout anyways.
exo i play u in 6 motnhs for whatever money u want bo10 starting at a 0-4 disadvantage for me.deal?
simple facts to prove how hard ssbm is :
tekken which you maybe acknowledge as a real fightinging game need inputs where u have usually 0,5-1,5 secs time to execute them- most of these inputs consist of simple 1 button presses. even counter and chicken moves have usually a almost 1 second window to execute them.
compare that to to ssbm.
standart wavedash(the main ground "trick" whcih is used to move around fast) is on some characters a time frame of 6 frames. with the game running at 60frames/sec thats 1/10 of a sec to input this. this involves 2 buttons and a accurate joystick control.
standart shuffled laser
similar time window. inputs this time, a VERY short tab on the jump button(to short hop. very short means on fox if u ur longer then 5 frames on the buttons,read 1/12 second, this move fails), while rising shoot,at the exact peak press down to fast fall, and L cancel to shorten the recovery time or directly follow up with a wavedash(see up). all this very precise input in less then 0,8 secs.
and those are standart moves. nothing esp hard.
get ssbm and try to do this simple standart move on fox. if u manage to do it more then 50% of the time in less then 3months training i give u 100$.
On August 15 2007 12:37 JeeJee wrote: exo6yte i don't really see what you're trying to say =/ your original 'argument' was that ssbm was a shitty game where everyone could easily perform the hardest of moves. this has been shown to be false by several people. what are you trying to say now with your full parry comparison and personal attacks?
what is that guy talkin bout anyways.
exo i play u in 6 motnhs for whatever money u want bo10 starting at a 0-4 disadvantage for me.deal?
simple facts to prove how hard ssbm is :
tekken which you maybe acknowledge as a real fightinging game need inputs where u have usually 0,5-1,5 secs time to execute them- most of these inputs consist of simple 1 button presses. even counter and chicken moves have usually a almost 1 second window to execute them.
compare that to to ssbm.
standart wavedash(the main ground "trick" whcih is used to move around fast) is on some characters a time frame of 6 frames. with the game running at 60frames/sec thats 1/10 of a sec to input this. this involves 2 buttons and a accurate joystick control.
standart shuffled laser
similar time window. inputs this time, a VERY short tab on the jump button(to short hop. very short means on fox if u ur longer then 5 frames on the buttons,read 1/12 second, this move fails), while rising shoot,at the exact peak press down to fast fall, and L cancel to shorten the recovery time or directly follow up with a wavedash(see up). all this very precise input in less then 0,8 secs.
and those are standart moves. nothing esp hard.
get ssbm and try to do this simple standart move on fox. if u manage to do it more then 50% of the time in less then 3months training i give u 100$.
Learn to type.
Mm... that was a pretty lame answer, but i suppose there's not really much to say when your main point is totally refuted.
People who say that ssbm doens't take much skill just haven't played the game at a competative level. Everything Ark said is correct. Another thing that most people don't realize is that the game is almost entirely improvisation and mind games. You can't follow a set combo because the percentages change and combos only work on specific characters, plus other variables. You just have to sort of make up combos as you go for the most part.
On August 15 2007 12:37 JeeJee wrote: exo6yte i don't really see what you're trying to say =/ your original 'argument' was that ssbm was a shitty game where everyone could easily perform the hardest of moves. this has been shown to be false by several people. what are you trying to say now with your full parry comparison and personal attacks?
what is that guy talkin bout anyways.
exo i play u in 6 motnhs for whatever money u want bo10 starting at a 0-4 disadvantage for me.deal?
simple facts to prove how hard ssbm is :
tekken which you maybe acknowledge as a real fightinging game need inputs where u have usually 0,5-1,5 secs time to execute them- most of these inputs consist of simple 1 button presses. even counter and chicken moves have usually a almost 1 second window to execute them.
compare that to to ssbm.
standart wavedash(the main ground "trick" whcih is used to move around fast) is on some characters a time frame of 6 frames. with the game running at 60frames/sec thats 1/10 of a sec to input this. this involves 2 buttons and a accurate joystick control.
standart shuffled laser
similar time window. inputs this time, a VERY short tab on the jump button(to short hop. very short means on fox if u ur longer then 5 frames on the buttons,read 1/12 second, this move fails), while rising shoot,at the exact peak press down to fast fall, and L cancel to shorten the recovery time or directly follow up with a wavedash(see up). all this very precise input in less then 0,8 secs.
and those are standart moves. nothing esp hard.
get ssbm and try to do this simple standart move on fox. if u manage to do it more then 50% of the time in less then 3months training i give u 100$.
Learn to type.
cutie is that all u can bring? no arguments, no questions,no answers no skill. just insult the typing of a non native english speaking guy. ur great. .
ignore evrything just try to flame on the lowest level. ur a pathetic lil batty boy an u know it.
try harder next time.maybe u can come up with some cheap excuses why game x is harder then executing 3+++ exact button inputs in less then 0,5 secs evry sec
My question is, why can't I be a casual fighter fan?
I mean, fighters are still my favorite genre of video games. I was in acrades when SFII was released. I am a devout fan of the genre itself, the game mechanics, and the hundreds of wonderful characters.
I played everything, from Vampire to Virtua Fighter 5. I even loved Super Gem Fighters. But I pretty much suck at them. I mean, I can beat a computer, but I've never played competitively, never mastered hard combos or the deeper factors of fighters. But I know how to have fun, enjoy the characters, movesets, and the engine of each game, and play casually enough to maybe last a round or two at the arcades.
Same goes for Smash. I loved SSBM, and I will probably love Brawl.
Can't a fighter be a good game if I can enjoy it casually?
(That does not mean I enjoy unbalanced, ill-concieved, broken-engine fighters, or fighters with little personality. So no, latter KOFs, no.)
On August 18 2007 15:46 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: ps. smd
dude you are a huge idiot
and why? because i told the faggy troll that hes a faggy troll? is it that what u mean?
maybe next time when a obvious idiot troll comes along i should just keep writing mucho arguments and examples so he can again answer with something like " LOLZ U HAZ TYPOS SO UZ WRONG !" . or maybe i should praise him for trolling this forum?
Why should I take you seriously if you won't take me seriously? If you won't even bother to spell properly, you're not worth my time.
Also, anyone that says that WC3 sucks while praising SSB is a hypocrite. Why? Well, the main complaint about WC3 on these boards is "it's too random". And it is. I mean, if your opponent gets lucky with his creeping and gets a godly drop, you're fucked. Period. SSB has the same problem. You see, in a real competitive game (like StarCraft, when it comes to RTS or Guilty Gear XX, when it comes to fighting games) the game is not reliant on random elements. In Guilty Gear XX, your character always fights at maximum power, regardless of their health level. In SSB, there is a random element introduced into your health. As you take damage, a percentage increases. Your opponent could get lucky and not get thrown out of the ring when you smack him down while in a real fighting game, when your health hits zero, you're fucking dead, period. SSB? "Oh, hey he got lucky and survived this meaty hit, now I'm open for an ass-kicking!" In high-level play, this completely ruins the game as the characters that can minimize this risk while maximizing their damage dominate the higher tiers. Don't believe me? Take a look at a bunch of SSB tier lists and Marth will be in the top five or the very top of every single one. Why? That character has a special property -- he deals more damage the further away he is, which gives him a ridiculous advantage in high-level play.
I hope that SSBB will fix these problems, but if it's anything like WC3: TFT was to WC3: ROC, it won't.
firstly, the percentages are not random, each attack always does almost the same dmg. if there's variance it's very little (assuming you know that spamming moves = less percent)
then of course knockback is the same for each move (taking into account the same percentage and opposing's character weight of course), and no, marth doesn't knockback further based on his distance, his sword's tip has that property, and only his tip.which of course is not random, since it's a predetermined length of sword which is easily controllable (see ken combo) and the knockback from it is also controllable
secondly, whether you survive a hit or not has nothing to do with randomness, read up a little about directional influence and teching (in particular the double stick variety)
then, even if he does survive the hit you weren't exepcting (say he DI'd wrong but got "lucky"), you're not open to an asskicking at all. in fact, HE is open to an edgeguard
marth is close to the top of the tier list has nothing to do with the character, same with every other character. it's based on tournament results. fox/falco are *at* the top, and you don't see them with tippers. they get the broken shine
simply put, the fact that knockback varies (pre-determindely mind you) based on percentage, opposite character, and opponent's directional influence makes all comboing completely intuitive (see bombsoldier/pc chris) and that much more impressive when they're pulled off. no auto-pilot key sequences here (excepting wobbles )
the only random things are items, which nobody plays with anyway (punching air and a bomb appear at that moment = you die -> suck ^_^)
so please, learn a little about the game before spouting off "zomg its random no skill!1!" and "marth imba!11"
They unveiled Peach!!! OMG. I remember on gamecube all I did was smash the downstick repeatedly and it was so fun. Once we were drunk and a friend and his girlfriend fuckn swarmed me and tried to kill me cuz they got annoyed at that shit. They poured aftershave down my ear and got in my eyes...
O man, smash is great. Very few games besides maybe Mario Party where you can get anyone to play with a lil booze and have a nice chill night.
On August 20 2007 05:23 exo6yte wrote: Why should I take you seriously if you won't take me seriously? If you won't even bother to spell properly, you're not worth my time.
If English isn't his native language and you're flaming him for not speaking it perfectly, I believe that makes you....a retard. Not listening to his arguments and refusing to take him seriously because he doesn't speak your language perfectly makes you...a racist. Please, just stop posting.
I may as well edit this in to make myself clear, I'm not shitting on YOUR arguments or YOUR opinions on SSBM/SSBB/WC3/insert game here, I'm merely shitting on the fact that bugging someone whos first language isn't English about imperfections in his English speaking/typing seems makes you a bit of a prick.
Wow, his fur graphics look quite good... BTW, does anyone know who got which characters in the nintendo/rare split up? I'm not sure if Diddy is owned by nintendo, rare, or both, as he seems to be popping up in games for both.
Sorry to break it to you guys, but the Wii isn't as good as you think. My sisters have it, and they never play it because there aren't any interesting games. The only reason I would see myself buying a Wii was because of this one game, but it still seems like a waste of money to buy that garbage console for one good game.
On October 11 2007 12:10 GunsofthePatriots wrote: Sorry to break it to you guys, but the Wii isn't as good as you think. My sisters have it, and they never play it because there aren't any interesting games. The only reason I would see myself buying a Wii was because of this one game, but it still seems like a waste of money to buy that garbage console for one good game.
i fully agree, if agree meant thinking that this guy is a fucking idiot
On October 11 2007 12:10 GunsofthePatriots wrote: Sorry to break it to you guys, but the Wii isn't as good as you think. My sisters have it, and they never play it because there aren't any interesting games. The only reason I would see myself buying a Wii was because of this one game, but it still seems like a waste of money to buy that garbage console for one good game.
Super Mario Galaxy Metroid Prime 3 Timesplitters 4 Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles Super Smash Bros. Brawl Mario Kart Fire Emblem No More Heroes Zack and Wiki
On October 11 2007 12:10 GunsofthePatriots wrote: Sorry to break it to you guys, but the Wii isn't as good as you think. My sisters have it, and they never play it because there aren't any interesting games. The only reason I would see myself buying a Wii was because of this one game, but it still seems like a waste of money to buy that garbage console for one good game.
Sometimes people like things you don't like! Always hold it against them!
On October 11 2007 12:10 GunsofthePatriots wrote: Sorry to break it to you guys, but the Wii isn't as good as you think. My sisters have it, and they never play it because there aren't any interesting games. The only reason I would see myself buying a Wii was because of this one game, but it still seems like a waste of money to buy that garbage console for one good game.
yeah get a ps3! every game released on sony's consoles have always been gold!
On October 11 2007 12:10 GunsofthePatriots wrote: Sorry to break it to you guys, but the Wii isn't as good as you think. My sisters have it, and they never play it because there aren't any interesting games. The only reason I would see myself buying a Wii was because of this one game, but it still seems like a waste of money to buy that garbage console for one good game.
Super Mario Galaxy Metroid Prime 3 Timesplitters 4 Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles Super Smash Bros. Brawl Mario Kart Fire Emblem No More Heroes Zack and Wiki
btw mario strikers is great game and is pretty competitive online. some good ass players, takes a load of skill and should definitely be considered as a legitimate game
by far the greatest and only game people should own for the wii until SSBB, then fzero online, mariokart online, etc
BTW: Has anyone heard of E for All at the LA Convention Center like a couple weeks from now? http://www.eforallexpo.com/
Supposedly they will have SSBB playable at the convention. I'm so totally there (even if it means ditching my last class Friday) if I can actually play the game.
I'm back from E for All and here are my random thoughts about SSBB:
1st off, the controls were annoying to get used to. There are no X/Y buttons (jumping) and no L/R buttons. The shield is the B button on the Wii mote (it's on the back, and it's kinda a bitch to press, for those of you who have Wii's, you can try it out) and jumping is done on the d-pad (btw it's a d-pad, not like the mini joystick thing).
I only played the thing once (line was long and wasn't worth waiting to play too many times). It was 4 person ffa, 2 min time limit, items on (basically getting the smash ball would = insta win cause you could get like 2 kills pretty easily). I used Link (he has a kickass new black color, makes him look evil) and I would've used Pokemon Trainer, except they didn't have him (they didn't have Kirby/Snake either =/). Ike is more of a Link than a Marth/Roy. His attacks have a lot less arc to them and they generally just look awkward. Metaknight seemed to be the best there, just imagine Kirby with a sword that does multiple hits, lol. I didn't really pay too much attention to Diddy Kong, Sonic seemed pretty good also.
The game itself looks great, but I was kinda disappointed in the levels (the levels themselves looked good, but they were just weird to play on). Most of the levels are kinda wacko (like Rainbow Cruise wacko). There seemed to be less "straight-up" levels (or maybe they just didn't showcase them) and the game just felt really messy. I played on this sky level where the platforms could actually be broken and shit was just breaking everywhere and people were falling off the clouds and shit.
L-canceling/Wavedashing/Short hopping: I tried to short hop, but the d-pad made it weird to do (I usually use X/Y to jump). I didn't have enough time to try to L-cancel or Wavedash (stupid Metaknights spamming forward+b and shit like that).
Other than that: Super Mario Galaxy = way rox Advanced Wars on DS (new one) = awesome Fire Emblem on the Wii = 2 good Resident Evil on Wii = looks good, plays shitty Ninja Gaiden on DS = way too badass Metal Gear Solid 4 = badass. Hajime no Ippo boxing game on Wii = fun as hell
On October 21 2007 11:50 ArC_man wrote: I'm back from E for All and here are my random thoughts about SSBB:
1st off, the controls were annoying to get used to. There are no X/Y buttons (jumping) and no L/R buttons. The shield is the B button on the Wii mote (it's on the back, and it's kinda a bitch to press, for those of you who have Wii's, you can try it out) and jumping is done on the d-pad (btw it's a d-pad, not like the mini joystick thing).
I only played the thing once (line was long and wasn't worth waiting to play too many times). It was 4 person ffa, 2 min time limit, items on (basically getting the smash ball would = insta win cause you could get like 2 kills pretty easily). I used Link (he has a kickass new black color, makes him look evil) and I would've used Pokemon Trainer, except they didn't have him (they didn't have Kirby/Snake either =/). Ike is more of a Link than a Marth/Roy. His attacks have a lot less arc to them and they generally just look awkward. Metaknight seemed to be the best there, just imagine Kirby with a sword that does multiple hits, lol. I didn't really pay too much attention to Diddy Kong, Sonic seemed pretty good also.
The game itself looks great, but I was kinda disappointed in the levels (the levels themselves looked good, but they were just weird to play on). Most of the levels are kinda wacko (like Rainbow Cruise wacko). There seemed to be less "straight-up" levels (or maybe they just didn't showcase them) and the game just felt really messy. I played on this sky level where the platforms could actually be broken and shit was just breaking everywhere and people were falling off the clouds and shit.
L-canceling/Wavedashing/Short hopping: I tried to short hop, but the d-pad made it weird to do (I usually use X/Y to jump). I didn't have enough time to try to L-cancel or Wavedash (stupid Metaknights spamming forward+b and shit like that).
Other than that: Super Mario Galaxy = way rox Advanced Wars on DS (new one) = awesome Fire Emblem on the Wii = 2 good Resident Evil on Wii = looks good, plays shitty Ninja Gaiden on DS = way too badass Metal Gear Solid 4 = badass. Hajime no Ippo boxing game on Wii = fun as hell
I fucking need: - a Wii. - this to get licensed in Australia.
On October 21 2007 17:54 Kassios wrote: there arent captain falcon/ganondorf, roy/marth, mr game&watch, pichu (he was useless but still), luigi, falco ? it sucks
i don't think they finished announcing all the chars did they? I hope not.. in any case I think they're getting rid of clones so falco's most likely gone (yeah i know he plays nothing like fox, but still is a clone). falcon will probably be in though, he's been there since the beginning.
On October 21 2007 12:44 InToTheWannaB wrote: who the hell is lucas?
Lucas is a main character from Mother 3. You probably don't know him because that title wasn't released in North America.
Anyway, new character: King Dedede! Coming from many kirby games, he is usually either portrayed as Kirby's enemy or Kirby's somewhat enemy, or just somewhat of a hindrance some time in most kirby games. If I had to guess, he'll have some powereful range and attacks, but be rather slow.
Now there are 3 characters from a franchise (kirby), with two of the characters not having their own games. Perhaps Sakurai is shipping his own series too hard? Either that, or there will be lots of characters so that he can afford to put minor series characters in the game.
PS. Less than 4 characters away from SSBM character levels now!
O_o It's been a while, but a new character is finally introduced!
Now how many people saw Captain Olimar coming... Oo;; ...okay, maybe it was pretty obvious. So are the five colors of Pikmin going to act like Nana in ice climbers, or are they just going to follow, and not attack?....we shall see.....
On January 09 2008 22:13 KOFgokuon wrote: I'm still kind of surprised that there's no captain falcon type character either way february 10th is going to be an awesome day
You mean another Captain Falcon type character? Because Captain Falcon is most likely still in (after all, there's been Assist Trophies and such from F-Zero, and he's been in since the original).
On January 09 2008 23:18 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Do you need a nunchuck to play this game? Or is it enought with only the wiimote?
You can play with just a wiimote, wiimote+nunchuk, classic controller, or gamecube controller. Wiimote is apparently kinda stupid though, so I'd recommend at least the wiimote+nunchuk option, if not one of the controllers
On January 09 2008 22:13 KOFgokuon wrote: I'm still kind of surprised that there's no captain falcon type character either way february 10th is going to be an awesome day
Attack wise, I would say Snake is a very falcon-esque character. Although his B moves do not seem the same, his A moves are relatively long-range and powerful.
Style wise, I guess that fits Ganondorf a bit more than Captain Falcon. As for a general melee speed character, I would definitely say Sonic fits the niche Captain Falcon left.
Is there really any chance that CF will stay? He's definitely my favorite character, but it seems odd that he's not being plastered on the website - maybe he's a secret/unlockable character now?
On January 10 2008 07:02 naventus wrote: Is there really any chance that CF will stay? He's definitely my favorite character, but it seems odd that he's not being plastered on the website - maybe he's a secret/unlockable character now?
Personally, I think there's a pretty good chance he's still in. But I guess we'll just have to wait til the 24th (Japanese release date) to see, unless they put it on the dojo first
If you aren't down GTFO. SSBB is Nintendo you fucking gook. I'm getting seriously pissed off about people who post without contributing anything at all. Instead of throwing goats into the Lion Pit we should be throwing people like you.
Another month. Hell, usually Nintendo delivers their goods on time. Oh well, more SSF3 practice for me then.
On January 10 2008 10:26 Showtime! wrote: SSBB is Nintendo you fucking gook.
Uhh, I don't think that is allowed here.
If I do get this game though, I think I will play as Diddy Kong, he is just awesome. But of course, I guess I would have to try everyone a little bit to make a final decision.
Man I'm thinking about getting a wii for this game only.
On January 10 2008 10:26 Showtime! wrote: If you aren't down GTFO. SSBB is Nintendo you fucking gook. I'm getting seriously pissed off about people who post without contributing anything at all. Instead of throwing goats into the Lion Pit we should be throwing people like you.
Another month. Hell, usually Nintendo delivers their goods on time. Oh well, more SSF3 practice for me then.
Dont talk like that. The guy is an idiot but you're stooping to a low level with the comments you make.
On January 16 2008 06:34 nortorius wrote: I'd rather have a delayed good game than a rushed shit game. Nintendo has their hands full trying to create a game that lives up to melee.
Then they should have set a release date of March initially instead of originally setting it as early December (ONE YEAR BEFORE) to hype their system. They are leaving all their fans with blue balls just to sell more wiis (half the people I know who own a wii or plan on getting a wii attribute it solely to ssbb).
On January 16 2008 06:34 nortorius wrote: I'd rather have a delayed good game than a rushed shit game. Nintendo has their hands full trying to create a game that lives up to melee.
Then they should have set a release date of March initially instead of originally setting it as early December (ONE YEAR BEFORE) to hype their system. They are leaving all their fans with blue balls just to sell more wiis (half the people I know who own a wii or plan on getting a wii attribute it solely to ssbb).
what are you going to do? not buy the game when it comes out in march?
honestly even if its delayed 6 months how much does that hurt you? to not be able to play this game until 6 months later?
like oh no, we thought it was coming out now but its coming out in a month!!! what a horrible wrong has been committed on us.
On January 16 2008 06:34 nortorius wrote: I'd rather have a delayed good game than a rushed shit game. Nintendo has their hands full trying to create a game that lives up to melee.
Still need to preorder this I almost blew a load when I saw that there was a pricing error on walmart.com selling it for $20 Naturally, they didn't honor it, but at least I could hope for a little bit
Could you possibly be more useless? You're defiling my great thread!
...just kidding. About the last part of the last part.
Sure, delays suck, but with all the content that seems to be in the game, I'd trade a month's more time for some well balanced characters instead of some game that's mostly gimmicks.
They delayed the US launch by a month and the Japanese one by a week. I don't care if the game development takes forever, but setting release dates and then breaking them repeatedly is not cool.
On January 16 2008 15:20 zer0das wrote: They delayed the US launch by a month and the Japanese one by a week. I don't care if the game development takes forever, but setting release dates and then breaking them repeatedly is not cool.
Based on my understanding, Sheik functions the same was as in melee: A transformation for zelda.
I assumed Sheik was in game just because Zelda was. It's kind of weird that they portray him as his own character in the characters link. Makes it hard to figure out how many characters there are in game >.<
On January 19 2008 07:45 Tsagacity wrote: Based on my understanding, Sheik functions the same was as in melee: A transformation for zelda.
I assumed Sheik was in game just because Zelda was. It's kind of weird that they portray him as his own character in the characters link. Makes it hard to figure out how many characters there are in game >.<
Is Zero Suit Samus a transformation for Samus?
First of all, him?
Secondly, Sheik plays nothing like Zelda in ssbm. So much in fact that it is disadvantageous to turn into zelda mid-battle, making sheik essentially a stand alone character as you can start as her.
The disadvantages of zelda far outweigh the advantages possibly gained with mindgames. The only time when it might be okay to turn into her is for recovery, as hers is very good compared to sheiks. Even still, most players do not do this simply because if it does not work, they have to start off as zelda when they respawn and lose their invincibility advantage because they have to switch back.
In starcraft terms, suppose you have two players of equal strategical skill. One player has 20 apm (zelda) while the other has 200 (sheik). The mechanical advantage cannot be overcome and the 200apm player will always win.
On January 19 2008 07:45 Tsagacity wrote: Based on my understanding, Sheik functions the same was as in melee: A transformation for zelda.
I assumed Sheik was in game just because Zelda was. It's kind of weird that they portray him as his own character in the characters link. Makes it hard to figure out how many characters there are in game >.<
Is Zero Suit Samus a transformation for Samus?
First of all, him?
Secondly, Sheik plays nothing like Zelda in ssbm. So much in fact that it is disadvantageous to turn into zelda mid-battle, making sheik essentially a stand alone character as you can start as her.
When you saw Zelda on the characters list did you think "Oh man, i hope they include Sheik too!"?
On January 19 2008 11:46 HonestTea wrote: Don't know how SSBM works, but it's never not even once a good idea to turn into Zelda for some mixup/mind games?
Not for mindgames. The only time you should ever transform back is if you have one life and can't recover otherwise. Even if you make it back on, you almost 100% need to transform back to win at the higher levels.
Sakurai mentions the difficulties he first faced with the idea (there are a bunch of varying characters in the game, after all) as well as his own initial aversion to the idea of a singleplayer story mode. After realizing he wanted to use the side-scrolling aspect from the previous Smash Bros. game as a start-off point, Sakurai once again faced the challenge of figuring out a way to make the characters coexist, and to make a story make sense. Enter Kazushige Nojima, the man behind the story in games such as Final Fantasy VII and Kingdom Hearts.
"At that point, I decided to ask Kazushige Nojima-san to help us since he had composed the scenarios for titles like Final Fantasy VII," Sakurai tells Iwata. In typical Iwata fashion, he replies, "Wow, asking the person who crafted scenarios for Final Fantasy to write one for Smash Bros. is a pretty big deal."
Im not really great and Ive only played melee a couple times, but I think its because he is so light and most of his air attacks have really low priority
Fox is definitely one of the most played, up there with Marth, Falco, Sheik, and Falcon
fusiondf is right about kirby. His range is very small and he has pretty laggy moves that are of low priority and do minimal damage. His only saving graces are his ability to crouch very low and his excellent recovery.
In the intro movie to Brawl, Marth and Ness appear fighting, so I'm going to assume that's a pretty clear indication that they're going to be in. I'll wait for the <i>official</i> official notice though to update the op.
On January 30 2008 06:27 sanftm00d wrote: since there is no official release date for europe yet, does anybody know wether it is possible to play american version on european wii?
i dont want to wait till june or october to play ssbb...so i would preorder it from an american distributor or something
No, the Wii is region locked. Unless you modchip it (which currently isn't even possible as far as region unlocking goes, I don't think), not happening. :>
On January 30 2008 11:02 Tsagacity wrote: So many people are upset about the current roster on Smashboards. I never realized people were so devoted to certain characters >.<
I personally find it hilarious that people are complaining about getting ONLY 35 playable characters. Sounds like a lot to me =/
i remember kirby was pretty cool in the n64 version, how come no one uses him?
Well, in Brawl it looks as though Kirby is back! From the videos and others' comments they say he's closer to this n64 counter part. IM SO HAPPY!!!!!!!! <----- Kirby lover if you didin't notice
On January 30 2008 11:02 Tsagacity wrote: So many people are upset about the current roster on Smashboards. I never realized people were so devoted to certain characters >.<
I personally find it hilarious that people are complaining about getting ONLY 35 playable characters. Sounds like a lot to me =/
which characters are they angry about?
Well this has 35, melee had 25 (with 6 moveset clones). We don't know how many of the 35 in brawl will be clones, but we can assume that it will be similar to the same amount. Here are the clones in melee:
Here are some likely candidates for clones in brawl
That said, I don't understand why people are angry with losing characters. They lost 4 in total, 3 of which are clones (one of those clones also being redone as toon link instead of young link). So really the only loss is mewtwo. While cool, he sucked pretty hard so w/e. Maybe he just hasn't been unlocked yet in the current leak. Graphic of lost characters:
On January 30 2008 11:02 Tsagacity wrote: So many people are upset about the current roster on Smashboards. I never realized people were so devoted to certain characters >.<
I personally find it hilarious that people are complaining about getting ONLY 35 playable characters. Sounds like a lot to me =/
which characters are they angry about?
Well this has 35, melee had 25 (with 6 moveset clones). We don't know how many of the 35 in brawl will be clones, but we can assume that it will be similar to the same amount. Here are the clones in melee: <Image Cut>
Here are some likely candidates for clones in brawl
That said, I don't understand why people are angry with losing characters. They lost 4 in total, 3 of which are clones (one of those clones also being redone as toon link instead of young link). So really the only loss is mewtwo. While cool, he sucked pretty hard so w/e. Maybe he just hasn't been unlocked yet in the current leak. Graphic of lost characters: <Image Cut>
Yeah, its really not a big loss, imo. Also, I'd like to point out that one of your "candidates for cloning" is assuredly not a clone, and that is DK and Diddy. Another point is that there is a general belief on Smashboards that Sakurai has stated there are *no* clones at all in brawl. Not sure if its true or not as I don't even remember reading the original source, but its worth throwing out there.
On January 30 2008 11:02 Tsagacity wrote: So many people are upset about the current roster on Smashboards. I never realized people were so devoted to certain characters >.<
I personally find it hilarious that people are complaining about getting ONLY 35 playable characters. Sounds like a lot to me =/
which characters are they angry about?
Well this has 35, melee had 25 (with 6 moveset clones). We don't know how many of the 35 in brawl will be clones, but we can assume that it will be similar to the same amount. Here are the clones in melee: <Image Cut>
Here are some likely candidates for clones in brawl
That said, I don't understand why people are angry with losing characters. They lost 4 in total, 3 of which are clones (one of those clones also being redone as toon link instead of young link). So really the only loss is mewtwo. While cool, he sucked pretty hard so w/e. Maybe he just hasn't been unlocked yet in the current leak. Graphic of lost characters: <Image Cut>
Yeah, its really not a big loss, imo. Also, I'd like to point out that one of your "candidates for cloning" is assuredly not a clone, and that is DK and Diddy. Another point is that there is a general belief on Smashboards that Sakurai has stated there are *no* clones at all in brawl. Not sure if its true or not as I don't even remember reading the original source, but its worth throwing out there.
Yeah I didn't feel like looking on the website to see if some of the characters were confirmed not clones, was just going by how i thought it would play out.
Sakurai may have a different definition of "clone" than the general public. However, that would be underhanded and pretty deceitful. Even assuming all 6 remaining are clones, thats amazing to have 29 distinct movesets in the game. Imagine how great 35 will be!
On January 30 2008 11:02 Tsagacity wrote: So many people are upset about the current roster on Smashboards. I never realized people were so devoted to certain characters >.<
I personally find it hilarious that people are complaining about getting ONLY 35 playable characters. Sounds like a lot to me =/
which characters are they angry about?
Well this has 35, melee had 25 (with 6 moveset clones). We don't know how many of the 35 in brawl will be clones, but we can assume that it will be similar to the same amount. Here are the clones in melee: <Image Cut>
Here are some likely candidates for clones in brawl
That said, I don't understand why people are angry with losing characters. They lost 4 in total, 3 of which are clones (one of those clones also being redone as toon link instead of young link). So really the only loss is mewtwo. While cool, he sucked pretty hard so w/e. Maybe he just hasn't been unlocked yet in the current leak. Graphic of lost characters: <Image Cut>
Yeah, its really not a big loss, imo. Also, I'd like to point out that one of your "candidates for cloning" is assuredly not a clone, and that is DK and Diddy. Another point is that there is a general belief on Smashboards that Sakurai has stated there are *no* clones at all in brawl. Not sure if its true or not as I don't even remember reading the original source, but its worth throwing out there.
Yeah I didn't feel like looking on the website to see if some of the characters were confirmed not clones, was just going by how i thought it would play out.
Sakurai may have a different definition of "clone" than the general public. However, that would be underhanded and pretty deceitful. Even assuming all 6 remaining are clones, thats amazing to have 29 distinct movesets in the game. Imagine how great 35 will be!
Yeah, it looks quite amazing Also, keep in mind that 3 of the characters have 2 or more distinct movesets on their own (Zelda/Shiek, Samus/Zamus, and Pokemon Trainer's 3 different pokemon). That brings the total up to 32/38 distinct movesets. Man, waiting til March will be so hard
What I've read about Ike and seen in Youtube gameplay videos suggests to me that he's not a Marth clone. There is some similarity in his sword play, but I am very confident that his style will be very different (a summary of E for All named Ike an incredibly slow character in terms of attack speed)
If you want to judge for yourself here are Ike and Marth in action (Ike in first vid, Marth in second) Supposedly it's hard to tell how slow Ike's actions are on video because there is a timing delay before a lot of his attacks.
I'm completely fine with clones if there is enough difference between the two characters. To be honest when I'm choosing between Falco/Fox in melee I don't think of them as clones anymore >.<
Hopefully Sakurai provided even more variety between clones this time around.
On January 30 2008 12:12 sith wrote:
So really the only loss is mewtwo. While cool, he sucked pretty hard so w/e. Maybe he just hasn't been unlocked yet in the current leak. Graphic of lost characters:
I'm tempted to call the cartoon Link from Wind Waker just a new iteration of Young Link. I haven't seen his move set though. Also some of Lucario's (a new pokemon that I know nothing about) pictures remind me of Mewtwo, so who knows
As for the angry, there seem to be a lot of people who think that, since the game has been in production for so long, that there should be a "massive roster". I consider 35 pretty massive, but apparently some people were expecting 40+ (I've still seen some people act like 40 isn't enough).
I'm more interested in balancing a small roster and providing awesome online play. I feel like if these same people that are complaining about SSBB became interested in SC2 then they would be in our forums posting "WTF WHY DON'T WE GET 5 PLAYABLE RACES!!?"
Off-topic: Has anyone seen the music lists, or listened to the music? When finally checked it out all my fears of disappointment were gone. The amount of money and time they must have spent on all these classic songs/composers makes me pretty confident that this game will be fucking amazing
On January 30 2008 13:28 Tsagacity wrote: I'm tempted to call the cartoon Link from Wind Waker just a new iteration of Young Link. I haven't seen his move set though. Also some of Lucario's (a new pokemon that I know nothing about) pictures remind me of Mewtwo, so who knows
As for the angry, there seem to be a lot of people who think that, since the game has been in production for so long, that there should be a "massive roster". I consider 35 pretty massive, but apparently some people were expecting 40+ (I've still seen some people act like 40 isn't enough).
I'm more interested in balancing a small roster and providing awesome online play. I feel like if these same people that are complaining about SSBB became interested in SC2 then they would be in our forums posting "WTF WHY DON'T WE GET 5 PLAYABLE RACES!!?"
Off-topic: Has anyone seen the music lists, or listened to the music? When finally checked it out all my fears of disappointment were gone. The amount of money and time they must have spent on all these classic songs/composers makes me pretty confident that this game will be fucking amazing
Agreed on all points. And that starting music list they released today was absolutely MASSIVE.
On January 30 2008 14:04 ZaplinG wrote: Fox and Falco are not clones. Fox is all about the dair/shine grab/dthrow/waveshine combos whereas Falco is more about pillars and shffling lazers.
-.-
That was exactly my point. A lot of people complain because the moves look the same, but mechanics make all the difference.
A new gameplay video suggests that there are definitely similarities between Lucario and Mewtwo:
WOW, this video(below) shows amazing potential for the level editor.
^The Ridley boss music in that video is perfect. Spontaneous falling blocks reminds me of the space station self destruct at the start of Super Metroid =p
so, this guy is the 35 character. He has very similar moves to fox/falco, except his dash angles 25degrees, his firefox has no chargeup, and his lazer is slower/stronger. He also has different A moves. Seems to be more powerful.
...his Final Smash is the same as both falco and fox's though
On January 31 2008 06:12 Ark)dEcOrum wrote: STAR WOOLLLFFFF!
...can't let you do that fox...
so, this guy is the 35 character. He has very similar moves to fox/falco, except his dash angles 25degrees, his firefox has no chargeup, and his lazer is slower/stronger. He also has different A moves. Seems to be more powerful.
...his Final Smash is the same as both falco and fox's though
Wait wait wait wait. We have Fox, Falco, AND Wolf!? Ummm, so three clones....? Or is Falco really different from everyone now?
As far as clones go: Yes, fox and falco played differently in melee, but thats only at higher levels...for 95% of people who played melee fox and falco were interchangeable, with maybe falco being a small bit noticeable slowly. Plus, I'm counting strictly movesets here, clone = character with identical or very similar moveset. Updated list of clones, we've ruled some out:
Mario/Luigi: Different Down B's I think? I would say they are fairly dissimilar.
Donkey/Diddy: NOT clones, we've seen videos now, they are definitely not the same.
Link/Toon Link: Basically clones, toon link taking the role of young link here.
Captain Falcon/Ganondorf: More dissimilar than melee, but we haven't seen conclusive videos yet. (someone please find one). ????????????
Fox/Falco/Wolf: Similar to melee, will have different speeds/lasers. Wolf looks the most different, having different A moves.
Ness/Lucas: Clones
Marth/Ike: Ike has a different B moveset, not clones
Lost characters:
Docter Mario: Probably a costume change for Mario, otherwise gone. Pichu: Gone Young link: replaced by toon link Mewtwo: basically lucario
Total losses as far as distinct movesets? 0. Dr. Mario is the only real loss here, he was the most different from mario.
Eh, Ness/Lucas aren't pure clones. The Smash Bros. Dojo detailed some subtle differences in their moves. They're close, but it's more like they're related than clones.
Ganon is a fucking clone.......so what if he 'grabs' with his side b now. Lame, at least give him a sword for aerials or some magic considering he is a sorcerer.
I don't play with items, but I'll probably play with smash balls from time to time, and 3 landmasters are gay =/ I'm going to miss Dreamland 64, that stage was kick ass. Falco can't pillar anymore from what it looks like. The game looks more slow paced, and by more, I mean A LOT. Is l canceling in? I didn't have time to check on Smashboards.
The site says Ness doesn't have PSI Freeze anymore, you should update that
Standard Special Move PK Flash Side Special Move PK Fire Up Special Move PK Thunder Down Special Move PSI Magnet Final Smash PK Starstorm + Show Spoiler +
On February 03 2008 02:09 JIJI wrote: I'll probably play with smash balls from time to time, and 3 landmasters are gay =/
From the videos I've seen, it looks like final smashes in general are gay =/
Some FS will do like 50% damage and decent knockback.
Marth's FS will KO 3 bowsers at 0% o.O
No kidding. MetaKnights final smash does 40% damage MAXIMUM, while Samus, link, diddy kong, etc are practically instant KO. It can be easily turned off though, I don't see a problem as long as that is the case.
So I heard L-cancelling, wavedashing, dash dancing, ect, ect have all been removed from this game. And judging from videos I've seen, the gameplay looks a lot slower compared to the fast-pace of melee. I hope Nintendo kept brawl somewhat competitive T_T
I think Nintendo has lately aimed for easier to play games cause supposedly they just want some random guy to pick up the controller and quickly learn how to play (at least from what I've heard from them before the Wii was launched)
Although maybe SSBB may change that =D that would be awesome =] (there's online!)
On February 06 2008 13:00 EmeraldSparks wrote: MEWTWO
WHERE IS MEWTWO
(LUCARIO DOESN'T COUNT)
ALSO THREE FOX CLONES T_T
Recolor lucario and rename him Mewtwo and you're set
Fox doesn't have three "clones." He has two. (I'm just using your language, I don't like to call them clones because they have some very significant differences)
On February 03 2008 01:51 sith wrote: As far as clones go: Yes, fox and falco played differently in melee, but thats only at higher levels...for 95% of people who played melee fox and falco were interchangeable, with maybe falco being a small bit noticeable slowly. Plus, I'm counting strictly movesets here, clone = character with identical or very similar moveset. Updated list of clones, we've ruled some out:
Mario/Luigi: Different Down B's I think? I would say they are fairly dissimilar.
Donkey/Diddy: NOT clones, we've seen videos now, they are definitely not the same.
Link/Toon Link: Basically clones, toon link taking the role of young link here.
Captain Falcon/Ganondorf: More dissimilar than melee, but we haven't seen conclusive videos yet. (someone please find one). ????????????
Fox/Falco/Wolf: Similar to melee, will have different speeds/lasers. Wolf looks the most different, having different A moves.
Ness/Lucas: Clones
Marth/Ike: Ike has a different B moveset, not clones
Lost characters:
Docter Mario: Probably a costume change for Mario, otherwise gone. Pichu: Gone Young link: replaced by toon link Mewtwo: basically lucario
Total losses as far as distinct movesets? 0. Dr. Mario is the only real loss here, he was the most different from mario.
I never owned a N64. I played SSB a few times & seen SSBM tournament videos, but never gotten into the game. However I have a wii & the inclusion of Sonic in a 2D fighter has won me over.
Isn't it out in Japan? What's people's impression of SSBB? What's different in gameplay from SSB->SSBM->SSBB? How does Sonic compare to the rest?
On February 28 2008 21:05 [X]Ken~D wrote: Sonic! His stage is so beautiful!
Yep, so is the music :D It's amazing how a three second clip will send me on a nostalgic trip from 16 years.
On February 28 2008 21:05 [X]Ken~D wrote: Isn't it out in Japan? What's people's impression of SSBB? What's different in gameplay from SSB->SSBM->SSBB? How does Sonic compare to the rest?
Yeah, it came out in Japan on January 31st. I haven't gotten to play but the consensus seems to be that the game play of SSBB is unique. It's not as fast as melee, and differences in techniques make it seem pretty hard to say "oh, it's like melee" or "oh, it's a lot like ssb64"
Sonic sounds decent, but I haven't gotten to see many games with him. Supposedly he pretty hard to control His ground speed is like twice as fast as the second fastest character in the game. The stories about run speed difficulties make it sound like it's easy to suicide/overrun your target.
Have you guys heard the english voices? The majority of them are, well, to put it lightly, FUCKING TERRIBLE! God.........and to top it all off, the language change option is removed. Damnit.........Pit's NAHAHNANHNAHNAH seems like a Siren singing compared to these english voices.
I heard the gameplay was actually slower than that of SSBM. I hope this is just a rumor =_=;.. And I don't think you can turn off items online against random people =[
I'm anxiously waiting for this thread to pick up again as people get their hands on the game. Personally, 3 years as pikachu, and i'm sticking to him Opening day preorder for me.
Pre-ordered mine online so I probably won't get it til monday or tuesday, but I'm going to a gamestop tonight with some friends to play in their tourney Can't wait.
On March 09 2008 06:18 ._. wrote: hey lets post our wii numbers so we can play each online. That's how it works right?
Midnight guys?
You'll have to wait til you get the game, because each game has its own seperate friend code numbers.
On March 04 2008 14:48 Gaetele wrote: Yeah, the gameplay is a lot slower than SSBM. It feels more like SSB with the techniques of SSBM than SSBM.
Techniques of SSBM? It's nothing like SSBM. There is no wavedashing, no l-cancelling (HUGE part of SSBM skill), ect. ect.
Basic character techniques haven't changed. Falco still has his shorthop double-laser, Jigglypuff still has (to some extent) the Wall of Pain, etc.
There's air-dodging, DIing is a big deal - everything that was MEANT to be in SSBM (Wavedashing and L-canceling were not intended for the game, no matter what you say) is still in Brawl. Hell, some things still showed up. Foxtrotting is still there, too.
[QUOTE]On March 09 2008 10:32 Gaetele wrote: [QUOTE]On March 04 2008 17:03 nortorius wrote: [QUOTE]On March 04 2008 14:48 Gaetele wrote:There's air-dodging, DIing is a big deal - everything that was MEANT to be in SSBM (Wavedashing and L-canceling were not intended for the game, no matter what you say) is still in Brawl.[/QUOTE]
i'd call that quite a big statement. i'd also call it a lie. L-cancel is a direct carryover of 64 z-cancel. wavedashing is a natural extension of a move christened by the qa as 'super slide landing' (now known as waveland)
I had a blast playing Diddy Kong with my friends for like 5 hours last night (banana peels ftw!). Now, to wait for my copy to arrive at my dorm now that I'm 4 hours away from said friends
My brother and his friend picked it up at 12 last nite. Played til about 730 am this mornin. it's pretty sweet. I use pikachu mostly (i was falco in ssbm) and my bro uses link/fox (they're both pretty good) and his friend uses pit (i think pit is real good. quick and strong)
my wii doesn't run the game. it's one of those small percentages of machines that have a fucked up lense or some shit, i'm so pissed. have to wait a week to play a game i bought today.
Got it last night, it's pretty different than ssbm, but I think that's a good thing. Gameplay seems more straight up, almost like what the developers intended it to be in the first place, since I don't see any obvious glitches or tricks like wave dashing and stuff. I find the new air dodge to be interesting, you can air dodge and then attack after a short delay, giving you more options in the air. Final smashes are stupid and imba, some characters have really good ones while others have crappy ones. Assist trophies are much worse, they are like pokeballs on crack. I'm sure both will be turned off for competitive play.
My current favorite characters are king dedede, fox, and meta knight, although so far I've only unlocked like 6 characters... still haven't tried out wolf, lucario, etc. A little disappointed in Snake, but maybe I just haven't given him much of a chance yet.
The online matchmaking is pretty terrible, if you want to play anonymously you have to play a 4 player ffa 2-minute KO fest with items on, which is absolutely rediculous. Hopefully Nintendo will change that, but at the moment the only way you can have 1on1 without items is if you arrange a game with someone privately.
Played for 10+ hours last night. Unlocked every character, and then played around with lots of friends.
I <3 pokemon trainer Each pokemon is very unique and good in different situations up/down maps gogo ivysaur small melee maps gogo charizard and squirtle is just a badass sideB into upB or upsmash is gg
olimar seems a bit underpowered, but is fun as heck
zelda seemed to dominate every game someone halfway decent played with her the new projectile/orb thingie is 100x better
I still <3 ness more than lucas, screw the neverending PKthunder, i want to be gay and snipe people over and over again
My copy will arrive at school when I get back from spring break. Oh well, I got it for 10 bucks cheaper at walmart.com thanks to a screw up on their part.
Olimar and Zelda are my favorites. Zelda is all-around good, Uair is insane KO and the new Din's Fire (side B) is wayyy better Olimar is just a freaking beast at dealing damage.
R.O.B is also a potential favorite. I'm not much a fan of wolf, not really sure why. He seems decent though.
I played for a few hours Friday night (Japanese version), then 5.5 hours tonight.
Brawl is love-making awesome.
My favourite new characters are Pit and Snake. I tried to use Dedede but I guess I just don't know how to use him effectively yet .
Initially my best characters were Sheik and Marth, partly because I used them the most in SSBM, and partly because they seem really good in Brawl. Since I never owned SSBM and never had the chance to learn all of its advanced techniques, my playstyle with them is pretty much the same.
Pit looks similar to Marth at first glance, but he plays totally differently. It took me a while to learn how to use him well and to start winning 1v1s against my friends. His n-air, u-air, and forward-B seem like his most "spammable" damage-inflicting moves. forward-B seems to leave him in frame-advantage most of the time. His dash attack is good, too. His b-air is powerfull, a lot better than his f-ir (which seems to be a common trend in all the SSB games ). For killing, b-air and f-smash seem best. His giant shield ROCKS: tonight, I saw it block smash attacks, boss attacks (during the SSE campaign), and a mortar in the face (which actually killed my opponent instead, lol). I suspect it would also block hammers, bob-ombs, and maybe even some final smashes . Lastly, a downside with Pit is that he has a tiny grab range =/.
Snake plays very weird, very differently from most other characters. All his smash attacks are like special moves. As far as I can tell, his only fast moves are his neutral-A x3, f-tilt x2, and (totally awesome) dash attack. Beyond that, seems like fighting at a distance is what he does best. I keep forgetting to abuse his grenades and his remote and proximity mines, mainly because I keep having so much fun with his guided missile . You control it with the joystick and press shield to make it stop and drop (there might be other things you can do with it, also). If you pick Snake, I suggesting sticking to the 3 moves I mentioned above when in-close, and abuse his gimmicky tools from a distance ^_^. Oh yeah, he can still attack after his up-B, and his f-air is really slow and sucks: use his other air moves instead.
Someone teach me how to play Dedede . His n-air splash looks pretty good, but I didn't like his f-air much: it's too slow, imo. His other air moves looked good too. On the ground, I'm not sure how to approach my opponent =/. I read a month ago that he has a chain grab, but I wasn't able to abuse it very well (I probably had the timing wrong).
IMO, Toon Link is going to be one of the top-tier characters. My friend and I unlocked him tonight by beating the SSE last boss, then going to the Forest level (it has Zelda music in the background). Toon Link's moves are ridiculously fast and powerful. It's hard to find any downsides to him. The second hit of his f-smash is SOOO STRONG . The only consolation is that, if you block it, you get a free grab. Furthermore, his d-air is SOOO FAST and has incredible vertical range: my friend would land on a platform above my head and Toon Link's sword would actually hit me beneath the platform @_@. Seems like it would also have a lot of landing lag, at least. I finally managed to win vs Toon Link using Pit and abusing forward-B to get in on him, but that might be due in part to my friend having been awake for 20 hours at that point .
Lastly, my friend and I discovered the best combo in the game: 1. Pick Wario vs Toon Link. 2. Grab Toon Link. 3. Press A to punch him in the balls.
I think it's a coincidence that Wario holds Toon Link at the perfect height for his fist to nail Toon Link square in the nuts .
Oh, by the way, Brawl is SO MUCH BETTER than Melee, imo.
The items have better variety (although I suck at getting Final Smashes, and the assist trophies piss me off, especially Little Mac >_<;; ), the single-player content looks incredible, the characters are cooler and more varied, and the game mechanics show some huge improvements. Like I said, I was never an advanced player in Melee, so I don't miss wavedashing and the like. But I'm SO glad that they improved air-dodging: I used to die repeatedly in Melee from trying to tech and instead air-dodging off the side of the stage. It adds a lot more depth to the air-to-air game to allow you to move after air dodging, imo. In addition, I'm glad that some characters can still attack after they recover with up-B.
Looking at smashboards, it seems that the current Melee pros choose toon link, olimar, diddy kong, dedede, and marth as the best characters, especially marth. Boo marth
I'm liking the game quite a bit so far. 25% finished with the main story line. I don't bother with any of the high level competitive stuff, but I'm a big Meta Knight fan at the moment.
sheik lost all her killing power.. zelda and bowser definitely improved! samus' missiles is almost useless without missle cancel (wtf her missles look like pellets!)
metaknight players can abuse a's and that drill move.
Overall it seems balance (there's really no high tier) .. however i hate the speed of the game (slow movement and character now a much easier time getting back on stage).. there's no fast fall (even if there is.. you wont see any difference) o gosh no dash dancing..
So I beat the Subspace thingy last night. It was fun, but I couldn't help but think about what could have been there.
The regular enemies were generally lame (where were the enemies from Kirby? other Mario series? hell, Earthbound?) with a few cool bosses. The battles with Porky and Ridley were cool, but who the hell were those robots?
Subspace could have been totally awesome, but ended up being pretty mediocre. Oh well, at least its just kind of a sideshow.
Edit: Oh and PS - Glad to see that Mr. Game and Destroy got some upgrades.
On March 12 2008 10:04 hasuprotoss wrote: Rawr, this game is AWESOME! We need to organize a league or something for TL.net brawlers to show off their skills. (A TL.net SSBB Starleague!!??)
If this is at all serious, I could def get my brother and his friend to join. And if they do, I might as well.
Post some god damn friend codes already (along with your location preferably to avoid laggy matches). Mine is 0688-4929-9917 and I live in barrie, ontario (about a 45 min drive north of toronto).
EDIT: also tell the person you've added them so they can add you back
On March 12 2008 11:10 nortorius wrote: Post some god damn friend codes already (along with your location preferably to avoid laggy matches). Mine is 0688-4929-9917 and I live in barrie, ontario (about a 45 min drive north of toronto).
Someone should make a separate thread for general wii codes for wii games.
On March 12 2008 10:04 hasuprotoss wrote: Rawr, this game is AWESOME! We need to organize a league or something for TL.net brawlers to show off their skills. (A TL.net SSBB Starleague!!??)
If this is at all serious, I could def get my brother and his friend to join. And if they do, I might as well.
I won't be the one to organize it, I don't feel I would stay consist enough to update threads, results, etc. But if somebody would create a "Starleague" for Brawl for TL.net, I would certainly play :D
On March 12 2008 10:04 hasuprotoss wrote: Rawr, this game is AWESOME! We need to organize a league or something for TL.net brawlers to show off their skills. (A TL.net SSBB Starleague!!??)
If this is at all serious, I could def get my brother and his friend to join. And if they do, I might as well.
I won't be the one to organize it, I don't feel I would stay consist enough to update threads, results, etc. But if somebody would create a "Starleague" for Brawl for TL.net, I would certainly play :D
Got mine in the mail yesterday. Still working on unlocking all the characters (stupid classes interfering with my smash ), but I'm getting there. Still really love Diddy
My friend code: 5026-4157-4533 (Blacksburg, VA)
Edit: And for anyone who's actually looking for a league (thats not just TL, although that would own ), http://wifiwars.com is running run, although I dunno how good it is. They're also doing an online tourney with smashboards at the end of the month.
Alright, here's the scoop. This is my impression of every character after playing nearly nonstop with the crew. The time counter on the thing says we have 60+ hours of gametime. I havn't been able to find a cord adapter that will let me go online yet, but there is a fairly large smash scene at my university, so I've just been playing with them.
Mario: An upgrade from Melee. His cape is even more effective now that moves are harder to combo and mindgames are more important. He has a nice little jab game and good movement that lets him rack up the damage pretty quickly.
Bowser: Since they made heavy characters viable, Bowser now stands a chance. While staying with a relatively same moveset, he now hits harder and stays alive longer. This being said, however, he will probably not be top tier; there are just so many better characters.
Donkey Kong: Right as Melee was coming to an end, DK saw an influx of skill as many people figured out how to play him competitively (most notably the player Bum). I havn't used him much, but it seems that his new and improved metagame will be able to transfer over to Brawl, making DK viable as a main.
Fox: No more drillshining or waveshining or pretty much any shining combos. His shine got nerfed the heck down and is no longer a spike. His air game has improved with the usability of his fair, although most of the kill moves he had in Melee (upsmash, upair) no longer are instant kill moves. He is very much just a jump and kick character right now, but I think will shoot to the top of the tier list solely because of the masses of people carried over from Melee will play him and figure him out.
Ice Climbers: I mained IC in Melee, so I naturally tried these guys out in Brawl. In my opinion, they dish out the most damage out of all characters. They took away all of the old desynchs, though, which were what made the IC so deadly. However, desynchs are not gone. They simply are just different and require different timing. A staple to their moveset was the wavesmash. Now that wavedashing is gone, they no longer can do this and it really hurts. Also, most of you will be happy to know that their downsmash no longer is a kill move and it is really hard to kill people with IC's now. Until people figure out how to desynch properly again, I don't see IC's receiving much love in the tournies.
Kirby: Kirby saw an overall upgrade in Brawl, much like Mario did. All his attacks are good (most notably changed was his dash attack. It has a bit of kickback on it now which means it no longer is instant suicide if you use it), his air game is solid, and his recovery is nice. The only thing Kirby is lacking is a decent kill move. Most characters can just outlast him.
Link: Link was bad in ssb. Link was bad in ssbm. Link is still bad in ssbb. Everything Link can do, Toon Link can do better. There really is no reason to use him, other than just personal desire. I do like his new boomerang, though.
Pikachu: Pikachu has been changed a bit. While his moves have stayed generally the same, it seems that the developers wanted to make him more electric-based. The stun time and priority his electric attacks have (fair, dsmash, fsmash, downb) is crazy. I would even go so far as to say his dmash is broken. The opposite side to this is that his tail attacks and legendary usmash now suck. The uair no longer spikes, the usmash no longer kills, and the nair no longer can be shffled into a grab. As of right now, I dont see Pikachu in the top teir, but he is still a good character. (and it must be the pichu from ssbm evolved, as he now can wear pilot goggles)
Peach: This princess has the ability to be crazy good. She is one of the few very technical characters now with her slidethrows and float cancels. While her infamous downsmash and fthrow have been nerfed, her fair received some love. I expect to see a lot of really good Peach players in the future just wrecking everyone.
Zelda: Zelda had a makeover. Her attacks kick SO much and her din's fire is better than ever now. Since recovering isn't an issue anymore due to the auto-sweet spot, she no longer is vulnerable after an upb. Nearly all of her moves are kill moves and do like 25-30 damage. She is slow, but that doesn't matter. I expect for the first time we will see some people choosing zelda over sheik.
Sheik: Still incredibly fast, but her combos no longer work past 2 or 3. Also, her fair's knockback has been toned down a lot. The needles still hurt, but no longer possess the game-breaking knockback they did in ssbm. I honestly think Zelda is a better character, although Sheik is probably easier to use.
Samus: Losing all the advanced techs really slowed down Samus. I never really was a fan of hers in ssbm and I still don't like her now. She has a great recovery still, but then again, who doesn't now? The metagame for Samus now is very campy and results in long, drawn out games, which I find very tiresome and boring.
Zsuit Samus: My distaste for Samus really turned me off from using her in any form. This being said, I havn't had much experience using or playing against Zsuit. From the limited amount of times I have played her, though, she seemed alright. Her speed is good and her moves (specifically her usmash) have excellent priority due to the disjointedness of her whip. Sorry, but I can't really say much of anything else. As a side note, if you want to start off as Zsuit, just hold down R or L during the stage selection and loading.
Yoshi: This dinosaur is one of the few who can combo still. He hits with medium force, and his recovery isn't that bad. Overall, I'd say he has went the way of Mario and Kirby before him and seen a general, all-around boost. I predict that once people learn how to combo with him well, a good Yoshi player will be very scary.
Olimar: I decided to make Olimar one of my top 3 before I really knew anything about him. It did not take long to realize he is special. Already, he has shot to the top of the teir list and has generated much discussion about being banned (although this is very unlikely). Once he has his pikmin out, he is very hard to hit. It's just like trying to box someone who is two feet taller than you - you simply just can't get inside their reach. His smash and grabs are disjointed and have incredible range. The only times he is vulnerable are when he has no pikmin (but it takes like 1 second to pull them up) and when he is recovering. Due to the whip nature of his upb, he is easily gimped. As of right now, though, that is his only flaw.
Diddy Kong: One word - bananas. Diddy is a beast when his bananas are out. They let him defend and combo very effectively. He has a good air game to stall until said bananas are out. Stop the bananas, stop Diddy. He plays the role of a counter-character very well. This means he will defend and defend and defend, then all of a sudden attack quickly and rack up some damage, then go back to defending. His peanut gun is worthless, but is good for mindgames. His upb is a bit weak, though, which puts a damper on his recoverability. I expect to see a few nasty Diddy players in the future as he is almost a purely mind-game and spacing character.
Ike: Ike is slow and hard, which is not always a bad thing. His attacks do wicked damage and require good timing. His upb is ungaurdable and a gimp, which makes his recovery nearly perfect. And, unlike most character with a 3 step attack (tap a three times), Ikes' is actually a kill move. His neutral b is good for surprising people and movement. Considering the popularity of the Fire Emblem characters in melee, he probably will have a lot of people playing him, too, which will help spur the development of his metagame. Overall, a very solid character and a viable main.
Lucas: An interesting fellow, to say the least. Unlike his counterpart Ness, Lucas' a attacks are almost all mental and have very good knockback. His best move so far seems to be his uair, which can kill anyone at around 40-50% uncharged. His neutral b is good and is actually usable in game. The only thing Ness has that Lucas doesn't is a dash attack and a really good bair; if you can do without these, Lucas is your guy.
King Dedede: Ah, here we go. Another character I decided to top 3 before Brawl came out. Turns out I made another good choice. Dedede is good. As a mobile heavy character, he can move very well and dish out powerful attacks. Since he floats, his WOP (wall of pain) is very deadly. Unlike Jigs from Melee, he has more to him than just a WOP, though. Pretty much all his attacks, apart from his fsmash come out reasonably quick and are viable with correct timing. Also due to his floats, his recovery is above average. He has good projectiles, can chaingrab a third of the other characters, and can defend easily from the ledge. Why wouldn't you play this fat penguin? He has no real weaknesses, other than being relatively slow to the quicker chars.
Meta Knight: Meta Knight has a great air game. His ground game is okay, but nothing special. His recovery kind of sucks since its easy to suicide yourself. He has no real kill moves and is pretty light. It only looks like he is doing a lot of damage because he swings his sword really quick. I think most people overhyped him a lot. Right now, he is only medium tier to me, but other people in the competitive smash scene are calling him one of the best chars.
Pit: Pit is pretty good. He can camp with his arrows pretty effectively, then throw a nair or uair or forward b to rack up some damage when the opponent comes close. His forward B against the wall is the closest thing in the game so far that resembles fox's waveshine infinite against a wall (responsible for the banning of many stages in tournaments). He has a couple kill moves at high percents (90-100%) that lets him finish the job. His air game is obviously solid, too, as he can fly. Also, I believe he has a decent WOP, if I remember correctly. I expect to see a lot of good Pit players.
Pokemon Trainer: I like this guy. What I don't like is that you switch pokemon if you die. It makes you have to use someone you are not good with in order to stall enough to switch back. It would be like in SSBM if you switched back to Zelda every time you died as Sheik, and had to pull of two successful transformations to get back. A rather funny thing has seems to be happening in our games is that people mistake him as he stands in the background for a player and furiously try to attack him, haha.
Squirtle: I prefer the turtle over the dinosaurs. He is small (hard to hit), lightning quick, and has a great fair/bair. I think he is even quicker than Sonic. I have yet to use his b charge move effectively with consistence, yet I feel it has untapped potential. There really is no part of his game that is bad. Just run around like crazy and keep the pressure on and you will do fine.
Ivysaur: Some people like him the best of the three. For me, he falls in second place. He has a decent fair and neutral a. His uair is a kill move and his dair is a good spike. I cant give more info, though, as I usually just switch asap to Charizard.
Charizard: The trashiest of the three. He wouldn't be bad if he could approach people, but he just cant. Also, I hate his recovery and usually accidentally suicide. His fair is ok if you are close, but whatever. As with Ivysaur, I just switch asap to get to the next pokemon, Squirtle.
Wario: Wario is just goofy. I've used him a little bit, but I've only really messed around, so I can't give much insight, sorry. He can change directions mid-air quickly, allowing for a semi-WOP with his fair (and maybe bair?). His range kinda sucks. Other than that, his bike is fun to ride.
Ness: Ness is relatively unchanged from melee. His bair is harder to land, but so are all the shines nowadays. He was pretty easy to pick up in Brawl. His dash attack has been every so slightly nerfed, but nothing too bad. A solid char, but I think Lucas may be found to outclass him as the game develops.
Luigi: Most of Luigi's appeal in SSBM was his sick wavedash. Now that that is out, he moves around the stage much slower. I think he received a bit of a downgrade from Melee, but then again no one around here really plays him often enough to allow me to make any concrete statements. I'll probably see more Luigi players once I get online and will get a better feel for how he is then.
Ganondorf: The man hits like a tank. He probably does the most damage out of the heavies. As with Luigi, though, I can't really tell how he really is, since I think he has only been played like 8 times on my copy of Brawl. I don't think he is a bad character, though, simply because of the damage output.
Snake: A solid pick. You have to be very tricky with your weapons. Like Diddy Kong, he is almost purely a mindgame character. His most notable attacks are his dash attack, which is un-shieldgrabbable since you roll through; his remote mine, which can be dopped and exploded in the air; his massive combat boots, as any attack involving Snake's feet really hurts; his usmash, which pretty much totally protects snake from the air (sorry Lucario), and the remote controlled fsmash, which can be canceled and dropped by L or R. It takes a lot of practice to get all the weapons working together well and even more practice to be able to mindgame them all with good results. I expect to see a LOT of bad Snake players and the occasional good one.
Sonic: The hedgehog is a letdown. He walks the same lonely road as Meta Knight and Pit as he has a good recovery and lots of little attacks, but really no kill moves. The closest thing to a hard attack is a charged up dsmash. The strategy right now with Sonic seems to be to just needle them to death with lots of tiny attacks. His speed and dash attack are excellent, but they are not enough to make him good enough to compete with some of the better characters.
Toon Link: I still sometimes call him Young Link, but whatever. This small child is a beast in the arena. He is everything Link players have been hoping for for years: simple and quick sword swipes, a recovery, a nice air game, and usable projectiles. The best thing about him is probably his ability to combo. His sword swipes are so that they allow for linking moves together. His small size makes him hard to hit, and his attacks pack a decent enough punch to kill things. I predict Toon Link to shoot to the top of the teir list asap.
R.O.B.: I've been playing this guy a lot lately. He can get some solid 2-3 hit combos out. Although most people think he seems slow and is unusable, his movement in the air is so awkward that it confuses and surprises foes. He has good projectiles (the gyro can kill!) and an unmatched, at least so far, airgame. His spot-dodge comes out very quickly and can be followed up by a immediate dsmash. Edgegaurding is easy with him, since he can WOP his fairs and has a decent spike. He will probably be high on the tier list once people figure out his movement and timing.
Falco: Falco plays completely different than he did in Melee. His reflector shield has been completely reimagined, which puts an end to his pillars. Also, his blaster can no longer be shorthopped, which was also major part of his game. This being said, no one really knows how to play him anymore. His projectile reflector will probably be really important, but who knows. People are going to have to throw all previous knowledge of him out the window. (I think his dair is no longer a spike, which would be a major deal, but I'm not sure.)
Wolf: There is only word word needed to describe Wolf right now. It is fmash. His fmash has crazy range and hits in two parts for good damage. His gun is strong, but not viable as a spammable attack. Just fmash and fmash. Then once you get done fmashing, do it again. Oh, and fmash.
Captain Falcon: While the timing and order of attacks are different from Melee, Falcon still can combo just fine. It is harder to hit with his knee, but is more deadly. His recovery is the same trashy hug, but this time you can spike people off the stage with it, making it good for gimping. I know many here will not like to hear this, but expect to see the Captain high on the tier list again.
Lucario: Hurraaaay. I didn't plan on playing this guy when the game came out, but after discovering his beast priority, I couldn't resist. On the ground he is kinda slow, but get this guy in the air and he is unstoppable. He can spam his dair like four times in a single jump, which is just crazy. His charge projectile is good; it's easily chargable and flies straight and far. His throws can set up combos at lower percents. The nair is pretty sick. Pretty much all his air attacks are sick. The only thing he really lacks for attacks is a solid fmash. His recovery is not very good, but its doable. (as a side note, he is a good counterpick against Cfalcon)
Jigglypuff: Nothing that I can see has changed, other than the usual game physics.
Marth: Uh oh, watch out. Marth is sick nasty. He is probably better in Brawl than he was in Melee... and he was at the top of the list in Melee... so... Most notably changed are his b combo moves, of which the timing for it is non-existant, so you can just spam it as quick as you want, his b charge, which now impales and has good range, and his up-b being a killing move from any direction. Combine all of this with his fair combos, nair combos, and an easy dair spike and you have just a gross character. I usually have to resort to Olimar to take out good Marths, as he is the only character to outrange him.
Mr. Game & Watch: His moveset is exactly the same, although certain things have changed. His dtilt and nair are no longer killing moves, although they still have great priority and damage. His fsmash can KO at low percents. His bair now catches them for the whole combo. His fair is still short-hoppable and is a great way to approach. The weight has changed as well as the shield, which were his two main downfalls in Melee. He can combo well, too. Overall, I'd say he has seen a boost.
Alright, thats it. If you have any questions about characters and matchups, just ask and I'll try to answer as best as possible! I believe this game will require you to pick multiple characters to main, due to the counterability factor of having so many to choose from. For now, I am playing R.O.B., Lucario, Squirtle, King Dedede, and Olimar.
Marth is really good, but not unbeatable. Since DI is so important in this game, you can DI out of most of his combos. Just hold away from him once he starts going.
Olimar, however... Not only does he have crazy disjointed range, he is the king of gimping on walk-offable stages.
gimping is when you just do something cheap to kill them at low percents (aka spiking over the edge or woping off the side)
fair, nair, dsmash ect are just shortened ways to say what move you are doing. The first part of it is the direction (Forward Air attack, Neutral Air attack, Down Smash)
WOP is best described by smashwiki: Wall of Pain (abbreviated "WoP") is a Jigglypuff strategy of constantly barraging the opponent with aerial attacks, while exploiting Jigglypuff's horizontal air maneuverability. Each attack should go forward in the air, then once you hit your opponent, back to where you started. This allows for quick attacks and keeps you out of range from any retaliations.
Tetsuya and AOB were the earliest prominent users of the technique, and they are largely responsible for its widespread use (see PuffStuff). The term "Wall of Pain" was coined by Smash World Forums administrator and retired smasher Amorasaki, a longtime friend of AOB. One of the most famous examples, commonly demonstrated by pro smasher King, is the use of Jigglypuff's multiple back airs to juggle an opponent off the stage, horizontally.
Except in SSBB, lots of characters can WOP, not just Jigs
Is there a way to play online without a router? Like, just plug a USB cable from your pc to the wii? I only know one person who plays and I'd need more practise.
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
On March 14 2008 05:43 Pwntrucci[sR] wrote: Eh how does that work? =/ Does it change anything to use a cable? I want to avoid getting a router if possible.
Its probably more trouble than its worth. You'd need to share the internet connection of the PC if you want them both plugged in at the same time. As far as I know, you can get an ethernet adapter for your Wii that would allow you to just plug in your network cable to your Wii. I doubt a USB connection to a PC would be sufficient to do internet sharing, but don't quote me on that.
On March 14 2008 05:43 Pwntrucci[sR] wrote: Eh how does that work? =/ Does it change anything to use a cable? I want to avoid getting a router if possible.
Its probably more trouble than its worth. You'd need to share the internet connection of the PC if you want them both plugged in at the same time. As far as I know, you can get an ethernet adapter for your Wii that would allow you to just plug in your network cable to your Wii. I doubt a USB connection to a PC would be sufficient to do internet sharing, but don't quote me on that.
Yeah, get a network adapter for the wii. They're cheap (like 15 bucks) and work well.
As much as I sympathize with all the melee pros who feel like they lost a game (I'll probably feel the same way when SC2 comes out), and as much as I enjoyed reading Zapling's character descriptions (way fun to read), I never once felt that SSB was supposed to be played competitively.
It was always meant to be a fan service game, a party game for casual users like me. A game with so many characters, random variables, and with such a simple system was not meant to have any kind of balance or coherence.
Hardcore SSBM users found ways to abuse the engine to turn it into a game of skill and dedication, which is admirable, but you can't blame the creators for wanting to tilt it back towards the light user. I mean, to use the term "metagame" - "above the game," you're already awknowledging as much.
I'll feel the same way about SC2 when it comes out... but as a casual SSB player (ie "noob") I don't mind the way the game has gone.
Marth is pretty much the best character as of right now. Lots of range, good power, good combos, lots of good moves, good at edgeguarding, good ground and air game, etc. The only thing he really lost was a little bit of his range and the usual melee advance techniques that everyone lost.
On March 14 2008 10:50 HonestTea wrote: As much as I sympathize with all the melee pros who feel like they lost a game (I'll probably feel the same way when SC2 comes out), and as much as I enjoyed reading Zapling's character descriptions (way fun to read), I never once felt that SSB was supposed to be played competitively.
It was always meant to be a fan service game, a party game for casual users like me. A game with so many characters, random variables, and with such a simple system was not meant to have any kind of balance or coherence.
Hardcore SSBM users found ways to abuse the engine to turn it into a game of skill and dedication, which is admirable, but you can't blame the creators for wanting to tilt it back towards the light user. I mean, to use the term "metagame" - "above the game," you're already awknowledging as much.
I'll feel the same way about SC2 when it comes out... but as a casual SSB player (ie "noob") I don't mind the way the game has gone.
i completely agree, although i did play melee somewhat competitively. i'm glad they did away with wavedashing/lcancelling and all that.
but they could have done without adding random tripping, that's just stupid lmao.
On March 14 2008 10:50 HonestTea wrote: As much as I sympathize with all the melee pros who feel like they lost a game (I'll probably feel the same way when SC2 comes out), and as much as I enjoyed reading Zapling's character descriptions (way fun to read), I never once felt that SSB was supposed to be played competitively.
It was always meant to be a fan service game, a party game for casual users like me. A game with so many characters, random variables, and with such a simple system was not meant to have any kind of balance or coherence.
Hardcore SSBM users found ways to abuse the engine to turn it into a game of skill and dedication, which is admirable, but you can't blame the creators for wanting to tilt it back towards the light user. I mean, to use the term "metagame" - "above the game," you're already awknowledging as much.
I'll feel the same way about SC2 when it comes out... but as a casual SSB player (ie "noob") I don't mind the way the game has gone.
That's a really good post; I never really thought about it like that as a ssbm player. Still a little dispointing to me though, although who knows, maybe players will find ways to make it competitive.
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
Sounds like Starcraft 2 anyone?
You quoted a hell of a lot of text for me to know what part exactly is supposed to sound like SC2, but I'm assuming you're talking about "limiting gameplay/making things easy to do."
In which case, I highly doubt that this will be the case. Take some comfort in the fact that Blizzard developers are already having progamers play their game are aware of the E-sport genre.
I doubt SC2 will have anything like tripping ^_^ (Workers spontaneously combust!?)
Olimar is absolutely awesome fun to play. He's certainly as dangerous as Marth, but it's a joy to use Pikmin.
As for reducing the depth of the game, that's an argument I'll have to consider a lot more. The engine limitations could short-circuit the competitive depth, there's no doubt about that. But I would'nt speculate on the goals of the developers by taking that out without interviews/statements implying that, either.
Is it possible for nintendo to add patches/reworks to the game or is this the final build and thats it?
If not, I expect lots of mods and hacks to be made for the competitive community. Its being experimenting right now if I remember correctly.
Also I wish nintendo understood why ssbm was such a popular and successful game for a long time. Not only was it "fun" but it had a strong competitive element that kept players coming back for more. I wish they paid more attention to that, but from the looks of it, the game is pretty good regardless, although the thought of randomly tripping in a tight moment irks me very unwell.
On March 14 2008 10:50 HonestTea wrote: As much as I sympathize with all the melee pros who feel like they lost a game (I'll probably feel the same way when SC2 comes out), and as much as I enjoyed reading Zapling's character descriptions (way fun to read), I never once felt that SSB was supposed to be played competitively.
It was always meant to be a fan service game, a party game for casual users like me. A game with so many characters, random variables, and with such a simple system was not meant to have any kind of balance or coherence.
Hardcore SSBM users found ways to abuse the engine to turn it into a game of skill and dedication, which is admirable, but you can't blame the creators for wanting to tilt it back towards the light user. I mean, to use the term "metagame" - "above the game," you're already awknowledging as much.
I'll feel the same way about SC2 when it comes out... but as a casual SSB player (ie "noob") I don't mind the way the game has gone.
I'm not a SSB player, but I don't agree. Beginners tend to play with other beginners so they won't be able to notice any engine abuse amongst their friends. Hardcore players play with other skilled players and the more the game has to offer the better. Battle.net is the same way. Nonskilled player tend to enter 3v3 BGH games while the more skilled play within clan or on ICCUP ladder.
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
Sounds like Starcraft 2 anyone?
Absolutely, lol.
Olimar is good? I must not know how to tuse him at all, cuz I thought he sucked, haha.
Im really pissed that Sonic doesnt seem good at all. H'es quick, but no big knock out. Same thing for meta knight.
On March 14 2008 15:19 ._. wrote: Is it possible for nintendo to add patches/reworks to the game or is this the final build and thats it?
If not, I expect lots of mods and hacks to be made for the competitive community. Its being experimenting right now if I remember correctly.
Also I wish nintendo understood why ssbm was such a popular and successful game for a long time. Not only was it "fun" but it had a strong competitive element that kept players coming back for more. I wish they paid more attention to that, but from the looks of it, the game is pretty good regardless, although the thought of randomly tripping in a tight moment irks me very unwell.
modded versions violate the eula and thus won't be able to be used by mlg (unless they wanted to get sued).
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
Sounds like Starcraft 2 anyone?
You quoted a hell of a lot of text for me to know what part exactly is supposed to sound like SC2, but I'm assuming you're talking about "limiting gameplay/making things easy to do."
In which case, I highly doubt that this will be the case. Take some comfort in the fact that Blizzard developers are already having progamers play their game are aware of the E-sport genre.
I doubt SC2 will have anything like tripping ^_^ (Workers spontaneously combust!?)
That's because everything in the quote reminds me on SC2. The analysis end of the game from gamers, like TL.netters =D
I think the game is awesome. The online play can be VERY laggy at times, which is frustrating, and I get kicked quite a bit. I dunno I like the game for the most part.
Oh I also noticed the tripping, which can be a pain at times haha=D
I wanna play SSBB too To bad SSBB makers hate us europeans and decide to wait after summer before releasing it...
Anyway, i know a method using the Wii Freeloader but the only problem is that i don't know where the fuck you buy the imported game?
I've tried google and amazon but no luck yet . Is there anyone who have imported the game to europe or know a good site that can help me import american brawl to sweden?
Tripping really doesn't happen to me that often, yet it happens to certain friends all the time. I don't think it is random, but rather has something to do with how quick you try to move after standing still? I don't know.
Excellent writeup ZaplinG, very informative. I played this game at my friend's house........I need a fucking Wii and Brawl =( I'm sort of pissed they took out wavedashing, lcanceling and stuff, but it is a new game, so I have to adapt. I really like Metaknight, Lucario, D3, Olimar, and Snake out of the new characters. I want to learn how to be 'pro' with them =o
Probably post more in this thread later. I'm at 74% completion of SSE with my friends!
On March 15 2008 14:38 zizou21 wrote: dude everyone is saying toon link is good, but uh, wat about him is good? i think he sucks ass?
he can rack up the damage through normal attacks and specials, but his side smash is just as good of a hitter as normal links. plus he looks so damn cute.
On March 16 2008 06:35 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Guys Metaknight and Lucas are fucking nuts.
Lucas is more fucking nuts now. He can do a 'recoil' foward b. The thread is somewhere on Smashboards and made by SamuraiPanda, I can't find it right now though.
After playing Brawl on Saturday, I have some things to add.
#1: All I hear about Metaknight is, "he's fast but he can't kill". Then I watch these guys playing, and it turns out Metaknight DOES have a decent kill-move: his up-B has great knockback, especially near the start of the move. Furthermore, I have yet to see an aerial move that could beat it clean (I saw it trade with Toon Link's d-air once, but also beat Toon Link's d-air once). Lastly, throughout the night, no one managed to punish Metaknight after air-dodging away from his up-B.
Metaknight is not broken but he is REALLY good and he CAN kill.
#2: Falco's chain throw is very dangerous. I've heard he can basically chain-throw heavier characters until the edge of the stage and then spike them off, and although I never saw that happen, even ~4 throws in a row racks up a lot of damage fast. Moral of the story: vs Falco, at low %s, you have to play very conservatively and never leave yourself open to being grabbed.
I have yet to face a strong Marth opponent, but after trying him myself I imagine a good Marth will be very difficult to deal with.
I like playing with heavier chars, and im actully really only decent when using King Dedede and Bowser although I still sometimes kill myself because I do stupid shit and bowsers recovery isnt all that great. With lighter and fast chars I guess I just do not know how to use their speed effectivly and prefer the heavy, slow, and more powerful guys. I Love Bowsers final smash though :D gotta love huge ass bowser.
Maybe me and everyone I play with is just a huge retard, but i feel that there are a lot of well...."accidents" when you play this game. There's always the chance of falling off the edge with your recovery already used up with = instant death, but it never really happened in melee. Even though you're far more sticky against the edge in Brawl, it happens a lot more. Me and drone were playing and I would say just about every game one of use would lose a life to something stupid like that. For example, Metaknights side b or even normal b both use up his recovery (for good reason, they offer a chance to get back to the edge if they didn't), but if you aren't careful you can find yourself suddenly falling without possibility to get back.
And btw, even though I'm not feeling many of the new characters, I like what they have done with some previous ones. I'm liking falco now, as well as zelda and captain falcon.
On March 17 2008 12:09 sith wrote: Maybe me and everyone I play with is just a huge retard, but i feel that there are a lot of well...."accidents" when you play this game. There's always the chance of falling off the edge with your recovery already used up with = instant death, but it never really happened in melee. Even though you're far more sticky against the edge in Brawl, it happens a lot more. Me and drone were playing and I would say just about every game one of use would lose a life to something stupid like that. For example, Metaknights side b or even normal b both use up his recovery (for good reason, they offer a chance to get back to the edge if they didn't), but if you aren't careful you can find yourself suddenly falling without possibility to get back.
And btw, even though I'm not feeling many of the new characters, I like what they have done with some previous ones. I'm liking falco now, as well as zelda and captain falcon.
The same thing would happen to me in SSBM with Fox, as I'd misaim the analog stick, use side B instead of down B, and rocket off the edge with no hope of recovery
On March 17 2008 12:09 sith wrote: Maybe me and everyone I play with is just a huge retard, but i feel that there are a lot of well...."accidents" when you play this game. There's always the chance of falling off the edge with your recovery already used up with = instant death, but it never really happened in melee. Even though you're far more sticky against the edge in Brawl, it happens a lot more. Me and drone were playing and I would say just about every game one of use would lose a life to something stupid like that. For example, Metaknights side b or even normal b both use up his recovery (for good reason, they offer a chance to get back to the edge if they didn't), but if you aren't careful you can find yourself suddenly falling without possibility to get back.
And btw, even though I'm not feeling many of the new characters, I like what they have done with some previous ones. I'm liking falco now, as well as zelda and captain falcon.
It's probably due in-part to a lack of experience. Example: after dying from side-B moves so often, you guys will probably stop using them in the wrong situations .
I've had my fair share of accidental deaths so far. Dedede's vertical up-B got me killed several times since it doesn't grab onto the edge like you'd expect >_<. One time my friend and I were playing through the events 2-player, and at the beginning of one, I was messing around with the Ice Climbers and side-B'd off the edge and died before the event had even started . (My friend just looked at me like, "wtf are you doing... -_-a".) And then there is my 0% death with Snake yesterday that's probably going to be up on Youtube in a few days for all the world to see T_T;;. Anyway, I'm sure that after these things happen enough times (especially if they get recorded), we'll learn to minimize the likelihood of them happening in the future.
Hey guys, have you ever noticed that on the Halberd stage, the Pokemon Trainer doesn't follow the stage when the Halberd flies away?
So what will happen when he has to toss a pokeball from the Halberd all the way to the stage? Will you actually see the pokeball from flying from the Halberd?
Hmmmm maybe my 0% death wasn't recorded after all ^^;; (edit: lol no, it's up there ). Anyway, here's my best game of the night from Saturday. People who downplay Pit's ability to kill may be somewhat surprised. Also notice the 26% arrow at the start -- I didn't move for a bit after that because I was laughing too hard .
Zex (Falco) vs Bill307 (Pit)
Edit: updated video link since the guy's previous Youtube account got deleted thanks to Sony, for no real reason -_-;;.
Yeah, I know I should've been air-dodging past Falco's aerial kicks instead of thinking Pit is Marth, and at the time I didn't know how to glide with Pit . I think my ground game is looking alright, at least.
By the way, if you look at the other videos from that night, you'll notice the Toon Link player, "Sol", does really well. I don't know how old he was, but I'd guess he was ~14, yet he was competing against people 20-25 years old and playing better than most of us! It was very impressive. (Kind of like GTR in SC, minus the awesome accent .)
Man, just finished unlocking all the characters/stages last night. Finally got to play with wolf, and wow, I completely love him He has some sweet edge tricks you can do with his side-b as well, so thats a plus.
On March 18 2008 06:30 tec27 wrote: Man, just finished unlocking all the characters/stages last night. Finally got to play with wolf, and wow, I completely love him He has some sweet edge tricks you can do with his side-b as well, so thats a plus.
On March 18 2008 07:12 TheMusiC wrote: beat sse, then beat boss rush on any difficulty with fox
Another way: beat SSE, then you go back to one of the stages (you'll have to look it up on brawlcentral.com or something) and there'll be a new doorway in a specific part of the stage that you can go through to fight Wolf.
On March 18 2008 06:35 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: That attack where Pit yells "hi yi yi ya" and spins his shit is really fucking gay
Not only is it really gay, it has the most annoying voice sound in the game. I love it .
Bill since ur obviously good (brawl not out in AUS yet coz they dont want it to take sales from fucking MARIO KART >_<), how have you found sonic? I've heard he's not that good which is disappointing coz i fucking love sonic!
On March 18 2008 07:59 prOxi.swAMi wrote: Bill since ur obviously good (brawl not out in AUS yet coz they dont want it to take sales from fucking MARIO KART >_<), how have you found sonic? I've heard he's not that good which is disappointing coz i fucking love sonic!
Eh, I don't think I'm that good . I tried Sonic a couple of times and found his moves to be rather strange compared to most characters. Kind of like Snake in that regard, except that I put more time into trying to learn Snake ('cause I really wanted to use him) but unfortunately I haven't tried to learn Sonic yet, sorry .
I'm in the process of maining sonic and I find him to be a fast light hitting machine with a few effective finishers. HIs down a is a sweeping angled kick that can deliver a foe down to the ground, but only moderately. His forward a smash is a windup punch that can deal mediocre damage but in the right setting it can send them flying. I'm disappointed in sonic's special skill sets, up b is just him jumping up on an button that random pops up, sending him up high, giving him great recovery. his b attack is a spin attack that attack quickly, depending on how long you decide to hold up do the damage. His side b feels all too familiar to to the roll attacks of yoshi but with slightly different timing and edges. So yeah, all his b attacks are just homogenous spin attacks, but they all have a slightly different taste to them.
I find his air smashes to be wicked though and his agility makes up for some cool mind games, and I love aerial fights, so thats why I picked him. Plus he feels really different than any other characters, so thats another plus. Final smash is cheap as hell, abuse it when you get the chance.
We should really just make an IRC channel for people who want to play, that way its more noticeable. Gonna go ahead and get on quakenet and make one, methinks.
edit: Alright, made it, channel is #tlsmash on the same server the tl.net channel is on (irc.quakenet.org)
Yea, wave bouncing is pretty nice, I tried to incorpore it into my ZSS play, but the lack of C-stick hurt me more than I thought >< Won't even speak about Marth
what controller do you guys use to play ssbb? i'm wondering if i should invest in a classic or gc controller for when i get this game, but don't wanna if its fine playing with the standard wii controller.
On March 18 2008 14:35 drftsx wrote: what controller do you guys use to play ssbb? i'm wondering if i should invest in a classic or gc controller for when i get this game, but don't wanna if its fine playing with the standard wii controller.
I play with a gamecube controller and have no real urge to use a wiimote/nunchuk setup, so I have no idea what it plays like. But personally, I'd definitely recommend a GC controller
On March 18 2008 14:35 drftsx wrote: what controller do you guys use to play ssbb? i'm wondering if i should invest in a classic or gc controller for when i get this game, but don't wanna if its fine playing with the standard wii controller.
On March 19 2008 17:31 Lz wrote: i enjoy the remote/nunchuck best ofc gc controller is easyest learning curve but~ im a starcraft player. I do nothing easy =)
On March 19 2008 17:31 Lz wrote: i enjoy the remote/nunchuck best ofc gc controller is easyest learning curve but~ im a starcraft player. I do nothing easy =)
Honestly after using the nunchuck//wiimote combo I don't think I would be able to play with a regular controller again.
for ppl saying the gamecube controller is best.. is this just because you are used to using it from the gamecube version? I'm new to SSBB, so I've been using the wii remote + nunchuck setup and I don't really want to switch to the gamecube controller unless it really is better for gameplay reasons. I'm guessing it's just better for people who are just more used to it. True or no?
On March 24 2008 14:40 stk01001 wrote: for ppl saying the gamecube controller is best.. is this just because you are used to using it from the gamecube version? I'm new to SSBB, so I've been using the wii remote + nunchuck setup and I don't really want to switch to the gamecube controller unless it really is better for gameplay reasons. I'm guessing it's just better for people who are just more used to it. True or no?
I prefer it because it's the same control setup as Melee was. I also find it easier to coordinate, but that might just be because I'm used to it.
yeah tether characters are so gimped when it comes to recovery. As soon as they're knocked off, they're pretty much dead. It doesn't help that a lot of them are easily knocked off
thats actually the reason i stopped playing olimar. He and dedede were going to be my mains, but i eventually dropped them both for Rob, Squirtles, and now its looking like G&W
On March 28 2008 03:42 ZaplinG wrote: ivysaur is just too slow for me. I like to run around like crazy and squirt in their face
Some people have the problem of not having enough length with their vines, so they're forced to spray everywhere instead. I prefer the focus-fired, 6-feet-of-green approach.
When all else fails, I can still fire my seed if needed.
there is no doubt that your seed has explosive power, but there is nothing like unloading a full blast that just pushes kids off the screen.
Also as ivysaur you are forced to use your vine to latch on to things in order to not die. I like the freedom being able to actually ride your juice all the way back on stage.
When I fire my seed the power is more than explosive, people are trapped in its ferocious, never-ending spurts.
As pleasurable as riding the juice waves must be, nothing compares to wrapping your thick vine around someones throat as they attempt to beat you off of them.
This thread has been tainted with Pokemon sexual references... I like Ivysaur he's the most versatile of the three. Squirtle is too weak and Charizard is too slow.
On March 28 2008 08:59 Amber[LighT] wrote: This thread has been tainted with Pokemon sexual references... I like Ivysaur he's the most versatile of the three. Squirtle is too weak and Charizard is too slow.
They're only sexual if you want them to be, I was being 100% serious.
On a sidenote, imagine if Lickitung was a playable character...
Hey guys. I play a lot with olimar in 1:1 but I have no idea what 2:2 is like (with friendly fire on). My school sometimes has tournaments that includes 2:2's, so anyone know what kind of tactics are viable?
On March 28 2008 08:59 Amber[LighT] wrote: This thread has been tainted with Pokemon sexual references... I like Ivysaur he's the most versatile of the three. Squirtle is too weak and Charizard is too slow.
its all about squirtle, what you talking about, that little fucker is fast, and has decent moves
EPT
Ike looks pretty bad ass now, I went back to Path of Radiance a couple days ago and he looks like a fifteen year old kid. T_T
![[image loading]](http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3071/characterselectclonesbh3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9326/ssbbroster3clonesji5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3480/characterselectlostcharcw8.jpg)
However, that would be underhanded and pretty deceitful. Even assuming all 6 remaining are clones, thats amazing to have 29 distinct movesets in the game. Imagine how great 35 will be!![[image loading]](http://kotaku.com/assets/resources/2008/01/ssbb_leaks_rob.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://kotaku.com/assets/resources/2008/01/ssbb_leaks_wolf.jpg)
. Lastly, a downside with Pit is that he has a tiny grab range =/.
. You control it with the joystick and press shield to make it stop and drop (there might be other things you can do with it, also). If you pick Snake, I suggesting sticking to the 3 moves I mentioned above when in-close, and abuse his gimmicky tools from a distance ^_^. Oh yeah, he can still attack after his up-B, and his f-air is really slow and sucks: use his other air moves instead.
![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/1822088936_577f0f5e8b_o.gif)
