On March 14 2008 05:43 Pwntrucci[sR] wrote: Eh how does that work? =/ Does it change anything to use a cable? I want to avoid getting a router if possible.
Its probably more trouble than its worth. You'd need to share the internet connection of the PC if you want them both plugged in at the same time. As far as I know, you can get an ethernet adapter for your Wii that would allow you to just plug in your network cable to your Wii. I doubt a USB connection to a PC would be sufficient to do internet sharing, but don't quote me on that.
Yeah, get a network adapter for the wii. They're cheap (like 15 bucks) and work well.
As much as I sympathize with all the melee pros who feel like they lost a game (I'll probably feel the same way when SC2 comes out), and as much as I enjoyed reading Zapling's character descriptions (way fun to read), I never once felt that SSB was supposed to be played competitively.
It was always meant to be a fan service game, a party game for casual users like me. A game with so many characters, random variables, and with such a simple system was not meant to have any kind of balance or coherence.
Hardcore SSBM users found ways to abuse the engine to turn it into a game of skill and dedication, which is admirable, but you can't blame the creators for wanting to tilt it back towards the light user. I mean, to use the term "metagame" - "above the game," you're already awknowledging as much.
I'll feel the same way about SC2 when it comes out... but as a casual SSB player (ie "noob") I don't mind the way the game has gone.
Marth is pretty much the best character as of right now. Lots of range, good power, good combos, lots of good moves, good at edgeguarding, good ground and air game, etc. The only thing he really lost was a little bit of his range and the usual melee advance techniques that everyone lost.
On March 14 2008 10:50 HonestTea wrote: As much as I sympathize with all the melee pros who feel like they lost a game (I'll probably feel the same way when SC2 comes out), and as much as I enjoyed reading Zapling's character descriptions (way fun to read), I never once felt that SSB was supposed to be played competitively.
It was always meant to be a fan service game, a party game for casual users like me. A game with so many characters, random variables, and with such a simple system was not meant to have any kind of balance or coherence.
Hardcore SSBM users found ways to abuse the engine to turn it into a game of skill and dedication, which is admirable, but you can't blame the creators for wanting to tilt it back towards the light user. I mean, to use the term "metagame" - "above the game," you're already awknowledging as much.
I'll feel the same way about SC2 when it comes out... but as a casual SSB player (ie "noob") I don't mind the way the game has gone.
i completely agree, although i did play melee somewhat competitively. i'm glad they did away with wavedashing/lcancelling and all that.
but they could have done without adding random tripping, that's just stupid lmao.
On March 14 2008 10:50 HonestTea wrote: As much as I sympathize with all the melee pros who feel like they lost a game (I'll probably feel the same way when SC2 comes out), and as much as I enjoyed reading Zapling's character descriptions (way fun to read), I never once felt that SSB was supposed to be played competitively.
It was always meant to be a fan service game, a party game for casual users like me. A game with so many characters, random variables, and with such a simple system was not meant to have any kind of balance or coherence.
Hardcore SSBM users found ways to abuse the engine to turn it into a game of skill and dedication, which is admirable, but you can't blame the creators for wanting to tilt it back towards the light user. I mean, to use the term "metagame" - "above the game," you're already awknowledging as much.
I'll feel the same way about SC2 when it comes out... but as a casual SSB player (ie "noob") I don't mind the way the game has gone.
That's a really good post; I never really thought about it like that as a ssbm player. Still a little dispointing to me though, although who knows, maybe players will find ways to make it competitive.
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
Sounds like Starcraft 2 anyone?
You quoted a hell of a lot of text for me to know what part exactly is supposed to sound like SC2, but I'm assuming you're talking about "limiting gameplay/making things easy to do."
In which case, I highly doubt that this will be the case. Take some comfort in the fact that Blizzard developers are already having progamers play their game are aware of the E-sport genre.
I doubt SC2 will have anything like tripping ^_^ (Workers spontaneously combust!?)
Olimar is absolutely awesome fun to play. He's certainly as dangerous as Marth, but it's a joy to use Pikmin.
As for reducing the depth of the game, that's an argument I'll have to consider a lot more. The engine limitations could short-circuit the competitive depth, there's no doubt about that. But I would'nt speculate on the goals of the developers by taking that out without interviews/statements implying that, either.
Is it possible for nintendo to add patches/reworks to the game or is this the final build and thats it?
If not, I expect lots of mods and hacks to be made for the competitive community. Its being experimenting right now if I remember correctly.
Also I wish nintendo understood why ssbm was such a popular and successful game for a long time. Not only was it "fun" but it had a strong competitive element that kept players coming back for more. I wish they paid more attention to that, but from the looks of it, the game is pretty good regardless, although the thought of randomly tripping in a tight moment irks me very unwell.
On March 14 2008 10:50 HonestTea wrote: As much as I sympathize with all the melee pros who feel like they lost a game (I'll probably feel the same way when SC2 comes out), and as much as I enjoyed reading Zapling's character descriptions (way fun to read), I never once felt that SSB was supposed to be played competitively.
It was always meant to be a fan service game, a party game for casual users like me. A game with so many characters, random variables, and with such a simple system was not meant to have any kind of balance or coherence.
Hardcore SSBM users found ways to abuse the engine to turn it into a game of skill and dedication, which is admirable, but you can't blame the creators for wanting to tilt it back towards the light user. I mean, to use the term "metagame" - "above the game," you're already awknowledging as much.
I'll feel the same way about SC2 when it comes out... but as a casual SSB player (ie "noob") I don't mind the way the game has gone.
I'm not a SSB player, but I don't agree. Beginners tend to play with other beginners so they won't be able to notice any engine abuse amongst their friends. Hardcore players play with other skilled players and the more the game has to offer the better. Battle.net is the same way. Nonskilled player tend to enter 3v3 BGH games while the more skilled play within clan or on ICCUP ladder.
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
Sounds like Starcraft 2 anyone?
Absolutely, lol.
Olimar is good? I must not know how to tuse him at all, cuz I thought he sucked, haha.
Im really pissed that Sonic doesnt seem good at all. H'es quick, but no big knock out. Same thing for meta knight.
On March 14 2008 15:19 ._. wrote: Is it possible for nintendo to add patches/reworks to the game or is this the final build and thats it?
If not, I expect lots of mods and hacks to be made for the competitive community. Its being experimenting right now if I remember correctly.
Also I wish nintendo understood why ssbm was such a popular and successful game for a long time. Not only was it "fun" but it had a strong competitive element that kept players coming back for more. I wish they paid more attention to that, but from the looks of it, the game is pretty good regardless, although the thought of randomly tripping in a tight moment irks me very unwell.
modded versions violate the eula and thus won't be able to be used by mlg (unless they wanted to get sued).
So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.
I'll start with the obvious.
Advance Techs:
Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:
Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks. Taking this out? LIMITING
Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game. Taking this out? LIMITING
Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping. Taking this out? LIMITING
Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay. Taking this out? LIMITING
Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical. Taking this out? LIMITING
L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability Taking this out? LIMITING
Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary. Taking this out? Impartial
Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option. Taking this out? LIMITING
Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:
Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long. Adding this in? USELESS
Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous. Adding this in? LIMITING
Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay. Adding this in? LIMITING
Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)
Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say Adding this in? Expanding
Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech. Adding this in? USELESS
Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever. Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)
Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least. Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding
The Physics Engine:
The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.
Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).
Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.
AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.
Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING
Random little partygame things
1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite 2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game. 3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl. 4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material. 5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.
Tier list?
Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).
That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.
Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.
P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.
2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.
3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
Sounds like Starcraft 2 anyone?
You quoted a hell of a lot of text for me to know what part exactly is supposed to sound like SC2, but I'm assuming you're talking about "limiting gameplay/making things easy to do."
In which case, I highly doubt that this will be the case. Take some comfort in the fact that Blizzard developers are already having progamers play their game are aware of the E-sport genre.
I doubt SC2 will have anything like tripping ^_^ (Workers spontaneously combust!?)
That's because everything in the quote reminds me on SC2. The analysis end of the game from gamers, like TL.netters =D
I think the game is awesome. The online play can be VERY laggy at times, which is frustrating, and I get kicked quite a bit. I dunno I like the game for the most part.
Oh I also noticed the tripping, which can be a pain at times haha=D
EPT
