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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On July 01 2021 04:31 SC-Shield wrote: Wasn't Frost Giants also planning an RTS? Interesting how much these 2 games will differ. And dreamhaven is making one as well i believe | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
1. Speed should matter less SC2 is a great game but speed being so critical is its biggest flaw. If being faster just gave you slight advantage instead of an insane advantage it would be awesome. Suddenly you could outmaneuver people that are faster than you if you outthink them. 2. Games should never be lost in an instant A disruptor shot should never make you lose the game. Not having a scan when a DT should shows up should be bad but not critical. Basically losses should be the result of many things accumulated, never of a single mistake. 3. Every composition should have a counter that works for normal players There should not be any unit composition like Carrier/Void Rays that just roll over normal player and takes much more skill to counter than to use. Basically there should be a balance between how easy something is to use and to counter that is fair on both sides. Warcraft 3 rewarded micro too much. SC2 rewards multitasking and speed to much. I just wished someone developed a RTS with distinct factions, deep strategies and varied gameplay but where macro, micro and multitasking just gave you slight advantages instead of massive ones, and where no mistake was as punishing as they are in SC2. I think Age of Empires in many ways solved all this much better than SC2. Speed matter in Age of Empires but it is not the insane advantage that is in SC2. I just wished the civs were more distinct, which the seem to be in Age of Empires 4. Basically SC2 is a great game but also deeply flawed. It is very far from the ultimate RTS. The ultimate RTS would keep the fun aspects of RTS (macro, micro, tactics and strategy) but remove the infuriating parts and make the game less mechanically demanding for normal players. The macro part should be about making smart macro decisions (please study Age of Empires since they excel in this area), not just executing repetitive key presses (spreading creep). | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On July 01 2021 04:36 Bomzj wrote: Actually it's not that fun to do repetitive things like hatchery injection or chrono boosting nexuses a few times per minute and building new bases/structures as much as you can. So I think it's time to make RTS less mechanically based and more entertaining and it's good to see that our beloved oldies/veterans moving to that direction finally  .And then you get Dawn of War 2, which is utterly boring (to me). Sorry, I will believe this idea is realistic once I see it implemented. I don't think making games easy for everyone to play goes hand in hand without dumbing down the game in one way or another and lowering the skill cap. This is all nice talk that has been around for over a decade in several genres and never worked. Look at the Frost Giant stuff. It's basically a lot of flowery words and the idea to make something accessible for everyone with no substance to back up any of it. I'm happy to be proven wrong on this but yeah, the fact that this has been regurgitated dozens of times and never worked in the slightest doesn't wake the optimist in me. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
The last few years of balance patch forgot ladder players entirely and focused on top 20 players in the world a bit too much. (Widowmine buffs, disruptors revert, void ray/battery changes...) | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
"So what we want to do is modernize a lot of it, and make it so any gamer can play this game. And to play at a competitive level, you don't need to practice the mechanics of it for a decade; you have to be good at the strategy, or countering what you're seeing on the enemy's side. We wanted to make a real strategy game rather than one where who can click the fastest is the best player." I mean has anyone ever made an RTS where the fastest player is the best player? Seems like a straw man. I would've thought if that was any game, it's BW, but of course anyone who has followed BW knows that would be an awful description of it. I think probably the two most famous players of all time are boxer and flash, who were both extremely strategic players... Most famous protoss player probably Bisu? For revolutionizing PvZ It just seems weird to make it a goal for competitive play to not require extremely good mechanics and fast play. I think the other new RTS's in development still want that for competitive play and are figuring out ways to make their games more enjoyable for slower players. Maybe they figure RTS players will go to the other new RTS's in development and they're going to try to capture more players from other genres. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7192 Posts
I've always kind of wanted to try a game more on the scope of like, a MOBA but you control every character on your side of the field, like Lost Vikings from HotS but with more units. I look forward to seeing how they manage to innovate RTS' | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
On July 01 2021 04:27 Ctone23 wrote: Curious what that actually means. Guessing they are dumbing down the macro / automating it. Well. Sc2's macro mechanics are artificially making the game harder. It's not a bad idea to get rid of that kind of stuff. There were mods out there that removed mules injects and chronoboost and those work just fine. In Sc2 they just made the decision to put them in because they didn't want the BW crowd to feel like the game was too easy, with uncapped unit selection / Rallypoints / etc. | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
On July 01 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote: tbh a higher skill floor RTS sounds great, I never really got into SC2 beyond the campaign stuff because its so daunting. All of the shit you have to do is stressful, it feels like youre never doing shit right youre just doing shit less wrong and its kind of a feel bad. I've always kind of wanted to try a game more on the scope of like, a MOBA but you control every character on your side of the field, like Lost Vikings from HotS but with more units. I look forward to seeing how they manage to innovate RTS' That's on you man, you are missing out. RTS lives and breathes APM and that's true for all the good ones. If you remove the macro aspect of the game by automation or something along those lines you are basically leaving the boundaries of the genre. Besides, once you get past your anxiety and just enjoy the game for what it is, it becomes incredibly rewarding. I have never had a win in a Moba or shooter feel even remotely as well-earned as a win in sc2. There actually are titles out there that went for the more "strategic" approach, but none of them have even come close to being as fun a game as the sc series | ||
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Fran_
United States1024 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
On July 01 2021 05:47 alpenrahm wrote: Well. Sc2's macro mechanics are artificially making the game harder. It's not a bad idea to get rid of that kind of stuff. There were mods out there that removed mules injects and chronoboost and those work just fine. In Sc2 they just made the decision to put them in because they didn't want the BW crowd to feel like the game was too easy, with uncapped unit selection / Rallypoints / etc. the whole game is artificial man the macro mechanics are there to put more strategy into macro and econ management | ||
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shadow4723
87 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1455 Posts
On July 01 2021 05:47 alpenrahm wrote: Well. Sc2's macro mechanics are artificially making the game harder. It's not a bad idea to get rid of that kind of stuff. There were mods out there that removed mules injects and chronoboost and those work just fine. In Sc2 they just made the decision to put them in because they didn't want the BW crowd to feel like the game was too easy, with uncapped unit selection / Rallypoints / etc. isn't that what totalbiscuit tried to do with one of his mods? | ||
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Zambrah
United States7192 Posts
On July 01 2021 05:53 alpenrahm wrote: That's on you man, you are missing out. RTS lives and breathes APM and that's true for all the good ones. If you remove the macro aspect of the game by automation or something along those lines you are basically leaving the boundaries of the genre. Besides, once you get past your anxiety and just enjoy the game for what it is, it becomes incredibly rewarding. I have never had a win in a Moba or shooter feel even remotely as well-earned as a win in sc2. There actually are titles out there that went for the more "strategic" approach, but none of them have even come close to being as fun a game as the sc series "Just stop not enjoying the game and you'll enjoy it more," I mean yes, that is true, if I found the way playing competitive SC2 makes me feel less bad I might enjoy it more, at the same time I have an infinite array of other things to spend my time on and I'm perfectly content to enjoy watching SC2. I'm not missing out on anything because I don't enjoy playing competitive SC2, its too hard for me to find enjoyable without probably absurd time investments (even then I've seen how Masters - GM players are, they also seem to kind of hate playing the game.) If David Kim's EZmode RTS comes out I hope its more my speed and something I'll be able to enjoy. Hopefully it brings in the other low effort casual type gamers who want to play against each other without having to invest a ton of time into it and it can help revitalize the RTS genre and give me some more fun games to play | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Having to make lost of interesting decisions in real time is good. Requiring 300 APM just to execute those decisions is bad. I wonder if someone could make a RTS with lots of macro, micro and strategical decisions with real depth, but where APM over say 60 would make no difference. Requiring BW or SC2 APM to play the game will forever lock RTS into a hard core niche played by 0.01% of gamers. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On July 01 2021 04:36 Bomzj wrote: Actually it's not that fun to do repetitive things like hatchery injection or chrono boosting nexuses a few times per minute and building new bases/structures as much as you can. So I think it's time to make RTS less mechanically based and more entertaining and it's good to see that our beloved oldies/veterans moving to that direction finally .I think it's more of having your actions matter. For example, having to individually send your workers to gather minerals in SC:BW is "difficult" but trivial and frustrating, and I wholeheartedly support being able to rally straight to minerals in SC2, but it does reveal that there's not much to do in the very early game. I think that's what they were trying to correct by boosting starting workers to 12 in LotV, but that comes with its own problems where important moments happen so early players can't scout them to react. I've watched some competitive Age of Empires II recently, and while I don't think the game is as great overall, I do really like how the variety in resource sources at the beginning of the game forces you to do things that actually feel like they matter. I think it's the feeling of making decisions that really matters, more than the number of actions and how "difficult" they are to execute. That's my perspective anyway. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
Making the game easier won't make the rts genre more popular. Bw was hard and that was popular. Sc2 during WoL was hard and that was incredibly popular. You want the game to become popular? Have real balanced patches every month like LoL. Adding new units all the time or altering how units work each patch etc to keep things fresh, interesting and exciting. LoL does this and the player base loves it. It keeps the playerbase engaged and keeps the game evolving so it doesn't become stale. Have a real esports infrastructure that is ran by professionals like how riot games does it for LoL. Have real qualifications for becoming a "pro gamer". AOE is much less apm intensive aka easier to play and that game series is not popular at all, especially when compared to starcraft. AOE is honestly a pile of heaping garbage. Computer games that are played in real time vs other players require skill. That's just the nature of the reality of the beast. It will always come down to who reacts the fastest while making the best/optimal/proper decision in any given situation. That's just how it is. RTS isn't for everyone and that's fine but this whole notion that making the game easier to play would somehow make the game more popular is 100% nonsense. Video Games are either in real time or turn based and if you aren't fast enough to cut it during real time then maybe turn based games are more up your alley. I mean think about it, If they made the next rts easy to play, How the heck could anyone justify competitive play when the game is easy/requires no skill? It would make no sense. What some people are suggesting in this thread would be the equivalent of adding AIM ASSIST to every shooter game just to make it easier for the player, which takes away the fun and satisfaction from actually getting kills. You know what game is incredibly easy but isn't poplar? Tic tac toe. Everyone has tried it, it's too easy hence why it's not popular. It's too easy hence there is no satisfaction from getting a win. It doesn't matter lol. Making video games/rts games easier is not going to magically generate more customers. Making a quality game that requires skill will. The think the biggest issue lies with the player themself, specifically underutilization of will power to play faster. Increase your will power and play faster. It's a choice. | ||
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Itsxjoeyy
30 Posts
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Ceraskeen
5 Posts
On July 01 2021 05:05 MockHamill wrote: The ultimate RTS would have some aspects from SC2 but with 3 major differences. 1. Speed should matter less SC2 is a great game but speed being so critical is its biggest flaw. If being faster just gave you slight advantage instead of an insane advantage it would be awesome. Suddenly you could outmaneuver people that are faster than you if you outthink them. 2. Games should never be lost in an instant A disruptor shot should never make you lose the game. Not having a scan when a DT should shows up should be bad but not critical. Basically losses should be the result of many things accumulated, never of a single mistake. 3. Every composition should have a counter that works for normal players There should not be any unit composition like Carrier/Void Rays that just roll over normal player and takes much more skill to counter than to use. Basically there should be a balance between how easy something is to use and to counter that is fair on both sides. Warcraft 3 rewarded micro too much. SC2 rewards multitasking and speed to much. I just wished someone developed a RTS with distinct factions, deep strategies and varied gameplay but where macro, micro and multitasking just gave you slight advantages instead of massive ones, and where no mistake was as punishing as they are in SC2. I think Age of Empires in many ways solved all this much better than SC2. Speed matter in Age of Empires but it is not the insane advantage that is in SC2. I just wished the civs were more distinct, which the seem to be in Age of Empires 4. Basically SC2 is a great game but also deeply flawed. It is very far from the ultimate RTS. The ultimate RTS would keep the fun aspects of RTS (macro, micro, tactics and strategy) but remove the infuriating parts and make the game less mechanically demanding for normal players. The macro part should be about making smart macro decisions (please study Age of Empires since they excel in this area), not just executing repetitive key presses (spreading creep). Meanwhile the Age of Empires Numbers | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On July 01 2021 06:55 ReachTheSky wrote: + Show Spoiler + Just a few things I want to mention in regards to some things said in this thread. Making the game easier won't make the rts genre more popular. Bw was hard and that was popular. Sc2 during WoL was hard and that was incredibly popular. You want the game to become popular? Have real balanced patches every month like LoL. Adding new units all the time or altering how units work each patch etc to keep things fresh, interesting and exciting. LoL does this and the player base loves it. It keeps the playerbase engaged and keeps the game evolving so it doesn't become stale. Have a real esports infrastructure that is ran by professionals like how riot games does it for LoL. Have real qualifications for becoming a "pro gamer". AOE is much less apm intensive aka easier to play and that game series is not popular at all, especially when compared to starcraft. AOE is honestly a pile of heaping garbage. Computer games that are played in real time vs other players require skill. That's just the nature of the reality of the beast. It will always come down to who reacts the fastest while making the best/optimal/proper decision in any given situation. That's just how it is. RTS isn't for everyone and that's fine but this whole notion that making the game easier to play would somehow make the game more popular is 100% nonsense. Video Games are either in real time or turn based and if you aren't fast enough to cut it during real time then maybe turn based games are more up your alley. I mean think about it, If they made the next rts easy to play, How the heck could anyone justify competitive play when the game is easy/requires no skill? It would make no sense. What some people are suggesting in this thread would be the equivalent of adding AIM ASSIST to every shooter game just to make it easier for the player, which takes away the fun and satisfaction from actually getting kills. While patches that add units and stuff would be harder to do with RTS, I totally agree with you. Massive and frequent patches are something that could keep people playing if the game is fun to begin with. | ||
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BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
Also, I do think it is funny to see David Kim indirectly axing the game he spent so many years working on. Makes me wonder if he had some kind of revelation.  | ||
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