EPTWell, these changes won't impact me. I'll probably stick to my Draven/Jynx discard aggro
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
Well, these changes won't impact me. I'll probably stick to my Draven/Jynx discard aggro | ||
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abuse
Latvia1944 Posts
If the elusive player gets a good hand and plays well he would not lose to anything. Elusive put you on a quick timer, while the elusive player has tons of combat tricks, chooses his blocks, gets to buff his units, has guaranteed card-draw possibilities in shadow assassin, amazing lifesteal in lifeblade, and has access to Deny. Elusives got the game state that everyone else had to work hard for - for free. They definitely needed a nerf, and i think changing deny and grandpa, aswell as a nerf to the health of lifeblade was perfect. That's 3 changes already, the number you wanted, but elusives were not the only thing that needed looking into. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On February 20 2020 18:12 abuse wrote: Elusives were definitely broken though, every top player would agree on it, and I would aswell. I'm not sure how true that middle part is, I mean, wasn't there a whole thing about top players saying that fearsome, not elusive, was busted (not that I agree)? I mean, sure, people were complaining on reddit, but that's just usual reddit. If there was one nerf to elusives I would do would be to change Whirling Death to "Ally strikes battling enemy" | ||
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abuse
Latvia1944 Posts
Fearsomes were/are on the rise, but elusives were the absolute #1 deck, no contest. I don't really see how can the middle part not be true, as it's literally what it is. Elusive decks have grandpa to buff up their units putting them outside the range of most removal in the game, shadow assasin for card draw as well as both of them enhanced by navori conspirator giving you the chance to replay them over and over again. Elusive decks have stand alone and back to back - easily the best combat tricks in the game. Elusive decks have amazing lifesteal in lifeblade who cannot be blocked unless by another elusive, and with grandpa or other buffs it was easy to get a 5/6 lifeblade which is very hard to remove and would put you at +10hp compared to your opponent every attacking turn. Elusives also have one of the best 2 drops in the came in elusive duo, who down the line could easily become a 4+attack elusive card for 2 mana, which is absolutely bonkers. grandpa not giving hp anymore and lifeblade, as well as lessening the domination of deny, is a perfect way to nerf elusives while still having them be a contender but actually having weaknesses. Well done by riot. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On February 20 2020 22:57 abuse wrote: Nah, elusive was the #1 OP build, in fact most people in masters didn't play it only because they were sick of only playing it and against it all the time. Fearsomes were/are on the rise, but elusives were the absolute #1 deck, no contest. If you can point evidence to the prevalence of elusive in masters or something that indicated a majority of top players shared you opinion, I would appreciate it. If you think this argument is self-evident then we can agree to end the discussion. | ||
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abuse
Latvia1944 Posts
On February 20 2020 23:02 Sbrubbles wrote: If you can point evidence to the prevalence of elusive in masters or something that indicated a majority of top players shared you opinion, I would appreciate it. If you think this argument is self-evident then we can agree to end the discussion. + Show Spoiler [watching first 30sec is enough] + but basically you can just go to youtube and type in "elusive meta" and watch all the vids you like, or go to twitch videos and watch basically any top streamer play over the past few weeks, all of them will talk about elusives at some point. The "evidence" is all there, you just have to go and look for it, if that's what you need to persuade you, if you give enough of a shit for this argument in the first place. Doesn't really matter anymore since elusives RIP. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On February 20 2020 23:04 abuse wrote: + Show Spoiler [watching first 30sec is enough] + but basically you can just go to youtube and type in "elusive meta" and watch all the vids you like, there's tons of them. A guy complaining and a youtube search isn't enough to convince me and what I would consider sufficient evidence (either hard data on high-level play or tournament data) doesn't seem to exist, so let's just end this discussion. | ||
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abuse
Latvia1944 Posts
All the info is in past twitch vods and youtube vids though. If you don't want to check it that's your deal. On another note - Funny how there's still basically an elusive deck in S tier though, and in fact it seems to be the most popular one, focusing on shadow assasin, solitary monk and heimer's 3 cost elusive turrets. Elusive always finds a way :D Heimer wasn't a S tier deck, but it is now ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/o5uWOa8.png) | ||
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Simberto
Germany11824 Posts
I am pretty sure that Riot has good hard data on this stuff, and i would very much like it if they released some. Something like the top decks (or cards) played in masters. But it would also be possible if a few masters players got together and actually actively logged all of the games they are playing. What enemy are you playing against, what deck are you playing, w/l. If you get a few hundred to a few thousand data points of that, you can do some pretty good analysis. The problem here is that you need to be very thorough in data collection, and ideally collect something that is not subjective, like "champions in enemy deck + cards seen" instead of "i think that is an elusive deck", because not everyone might view the same decks as the same thing. | ||
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abuse
Latvia1944 Posts
How is twitch vods of top masters playing pretty much only vs elusives and giving their thoughts on it not good hard data? How about instead of being pretty sure people actually go look at the vods, since they are, basically by definition - data? Data of games done on the highest level. And sure, you would find vods that show a lot of different decks to be powerful, but you'd also hear people talk about elusives all the time, and how every deck needs to be at least 40% win rate vs elusives to be at all viable, and mostly playing elusives themselves when they try to climb, I wish people here would stop assuming, and actually bothered to follow the scene and happenings. The website which pretty much everyone uses for LoR meta analysis is mobalytics, and their tierlists are made updated all the time and made by swimstrim, feel free to watch his youtube channel where he talks about the meta all the time. there's plenty of "meta monday" videos where he talks about the top decks, what is meta, what isn't, after his own experiences and talking to other top players. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11824 Posts
And even with the best of intentions this kind of method leads to a lot of perception bias. Say you lose your first 5 games to elusive decks. You might get the impression that everyone is playing elusive, and that it is very strong. And now you take greater notice of every time you lose to an elusive deck, while discarding the experiences where you won against elusives, or played against any other deck. So you might feel that elusives are stronger and more prevalent than other decks, while they really are not. (This is a hypothetical example to explain the problems with this methodology, not a statement with regards to whether or not elusives were prevalent or strong. I personally think that they were both of those things) I prefer to actually see the research. Hard data is a lot more comfortable and leads to much better results than people who anecdotically talk about their experiences. | ||
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abuse
Latvia1944 Posts
Second - You're missing the other half of the data in twitch vods and that is the actual games they play, by watching the vods you can watch yourself how many elusive decks were around and what their winrate was. In swim's case - he did his research. Still does it. Still keeps the tierlist up to date, with several of the top decks being his btw. You're welcome to look at his research by watching his vids or his posts. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11824 Posts
I am a bit confused about how Kallista's Bond exactly works. I had a situation where Kallista was bonded, then Kallista and her bond died, Kallista was revived by The Rekindler, levelled up, attacked, and her bond didn't show up. But i think i also recall a situation where Kallista died after levelling up, was Rekindled, and her bond showed up during the attack. (I might be mistaken here, though) Does anyone have very exact info on how Kallista and her Bond work? When does it get removed? When does it stay? When is it reapplied? Another weird thing i noticed is that when Kallista Bonds with Zed, Zed is dead, and Kallista attacks, Zed creates his clone before Kallistas Bond is applied. So (with a levelled Zed), I had Kallista, 6/3 Zed and a 4/3 Zed shadow attacking. Which felt weird, but makes sense if you See Kallistas text as sequentially "Revives attacking and then reforges her bond", and Zeds clone as part of "attacking". | ||
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StaleTosis
13 Posts
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Torchise
Canada245 Posts
- The bond only occurs when you play Kalista, in which case you select another unit on the board to bond with. - When Kalista dies, the bond is broken, i.e. the bonded unit no longer has +2/0 and when you play another Kalista (from your hand), you must reselect an ally to bond with. If the last part is true (I don't play Kalista or see a lot of Kalista in my games but I don't see why it wouldn't be true unless Kalista is some weird special case where the bond persists beyond death like in LoL), then this is what happens: Rekindler revives a champion, which means that it summons your champion from your graveyard. Since Kalista's bond is only activated when the Play effect occurs, you do revive Kalista with Rekindler but it is unbonded since a Summon effect does not trigger Play effects. If you don't know the difference between "Play" and "Summon", "Play" means that your card must be played from hand, "Summon" is all the other ways to put a unit in the board (including Revive). So if you play a unit, you also summon it but if you summon a unit, you do not play it. From Riot's keyword guide: Remember, there are some cards that can just summon cards from anywhere. However, if you summon a card with an effect that would have been triggered by Playing it, it won't activate since it didn't come from your hand. So I believe Rekindler has bad synergy with Kalista since it only revives Kalista unbonded (and the bond is the whole point of the champion in the first place). | ||
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Simberto
Germany11824 Posts
Basically: Play ---> Bond Kallista Death ---> Bond end. I don't think Kallista is actually very good. She seems pretty clunky to use. You need to have something reasonable to bond with on board, then you play kallista, never use her in an attack or block, wait until three units (including the bonded unit) die, and then you need to attack, too. And you need to keep the really squishy 2 health kallista alive throughout all of this to get any payoff. I guess the +2 is nice, and you can probably create some weird deck where stuff like this plays out reasonable well. But it still seems pretty clunky, and really easy to disrupt. The fact that i have seen exactly 0 kallista in constructed so far also speaks for this theory. One interesting thing i learned today is that capture removes buffs. I had a pretty large Assembly bot get captured, and once it returned after me killing the abductor, it was a teeny tiny 1/1, which was pretty sad. Also, if the capturer gets his text purged, the captured unit is just gone. | ||
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Torchise
Canada245 Posts
- you would be able to test it yourself in a quick AI game; - you would be a weirdo that likes Kalista in constructed  Kalista used to be much more interesting in the 1st Preview Patch, here's what her old kit did: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=https://news-a.akamaihd.net/public/images/lor/2019/patch-notes/v1/en_us/01SI030.png&resize=250:) ![[image loading]](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=https://news-a.akamaihd.net/public/images/lor/2019/patch-notes/v1/en_us/01SI030T2.png&resize=250:) So for example, you could bond her to The Undying and force people to attack it in order to get to Kalista, among other interesting combinations. But Riot changed her, their reasoning being that "Kalista's old mechanic entailed a ton of complexity for both players, so we looked for a clearer way to achieve similar results."  On February 25 2020 01:09 Simberto wrote: Also, if the capturer gets his text purged, the captured unit is just gone. Very interesting. So you could capture 1 or more enemy units, put it in your own follower, then Purify it to make the captured units disappear from the game? Another small fun tidbit on capture (again, from Riot's Keyword Guide): When you free a captured unit, it counts as a resummon so it also triggers its summoning effects. There is some weird interaction I would like to test with Capture: let's say your opponent captures 1 of your unit (let's call it D, for detained) and puts in his unit J (for jailor). What happens if you possess his unit J, then kill it? Now let's be even more funky. Let's say you start by possessing an enemy follower (let's call it P, for possessed). Then you capture another enemy follower (let's call it D) and put it in P. Then you let the round end so that P returns to the enemy. What happens then? I would assume that in both cases, D would return to its original owner when the jailor is killed but I never saw this interaction happen so I can't be 100% sure. Maybe someone would like to test it out with me in a custom game? | ||
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Torchise
Canada245 Posts
1st experience: testing the interaction with Possess. Not super interesting since I got the result I expected but it is fun to notice that it is possible to have an enemy follower detain its own ally. For my 2nd experience, I asked myself: since Detain is a status effect, what happens if I duplicate the captor? My findings surprised me. Pretty cool to learn about the finer details of some of the game mechanics, even though you could probably guess that it is a bad idea to duplicate a captor in the first place... | ||
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Simberto
Germany11824 Posts
If stuff indeed works as you think it does, this would mean that you then have a unit which captured one of your own units. And if it dies, the captured unit goes free. | ||
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Torchise
Canada245 Posts
The way I picture it is that the jailer and its duplicates act like "possible exits" to the captured unit. If you kill a jailer, you open the "door" to the captured unit and it gets released and since there is no longer any prisoner, the detain status gets removed on the other jailors. If you silence a jailer, you permanently lock 1 exit but if there are remaining copies of the jailer, the captured unit still has another chance to escape, so you need to silence all jailers to banish the captured unit. There are some other interactions I'm wondering about, mainly with Possession: - If you Possess a follower, then the enemy copies it with Shady Character, what will happen at the end of the round? - If you Possess a follower, the the enemy possesses it back, who does it go back to at the end of the round? Does the game properly "stack" the Possession status or does it get overwritten by the last person to cast it? Would like to experiment with these, but can't with the AI (it won't cast Possession, although he does play Shady Character in his Teemo Deck). If you are also curious and are interested in testing this out with me, you can add me as T0rchise #NA1. It's also definitely possible that someone on the Internet already tested this out, so if you can find out a video or something that shows what happens in these cases, it would also be appreciated. | ||
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