EPTBaldurs Gate 3 announced - Page 7
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Simberto
Germany11752 Posts
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On October 19 2020 23:33 Manit0u wrote: No love for Icewind Dale? I think I liked it even more than BG. With this title I guess I'll wait about a year before getting it. So that bugs and issues can be ironed out. From what I've seen so far from people playing early access it's a bug-ridden mess at the moment. Bugs and stuff is the reason for Early Access, Divinity 1 and 2 were very playable at launch. Is the story/setting still a mess? The only complaint I have about Divinity 1 and 2 is that the games couldn't decide what they want to be, a silly/fun play ground or a serious story. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17665 Posts
On October 19 2020 23:36 Simberto wrote: Icewind Dale was mostly a tactics game imo. I don't recall there being a lot of non-combat stuff going on there, especially in comparison to BG (and obviously Planescape at the far other end) I mean, the problem with BG was that the story was pretty much forced upon you (there was only an illusion of choice) and the NPCs that you interacted with (your party) were absolutely obnoxious for the most part. IWD definitely didn't have that much story behind it (although I'm not sure if I like shoehorned story that much) but it had way better atmosphere, graphics, music and combat. I think way too many people tend to view BG through nostalgia lens. BG2 was much better than BG1 and I still think it might've been worse than IWD (maybe except for the Underdark part). BG was just too confused about what it was (which was heavily combat-oriented game with pretense for story and bad combat encounters) to be really great. IWD while simpler and more linear was totally honest about what it was: bare-bones story with awesome combat encounters (and where villains had more than 1 dimension and were actually interesting, as opposed to BG where bad guys were bad because they like being bad). I mean, in IWD you had villainous enemies that made you feel bad after you defeated them because you could totally understand their motivations and actually even get behind them. They were sad and tragic characters, not just derpy run-of-the mill bad guys. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3426 Posts
There's a 6 person party, everyone has 3 additional slots for quick use items, 3 slots for ammo and there are specialized containers for storing useful items (i.e. one container for scrolls, one container for potions, one for ammo, a bag of holding for gear - which wasn't from a mod, it was in the game by default, the mod just introduced more of them and early on) + a container for mostly useless gems (which, again, there weren't that many to begin with). Not to mention that the vast majority of items in BG2 were *interesting* and unique. items in modern RPGs are randomly generated and, to me, extremely boring, partially also because there's *so much loot everywhere*. D:OS1 and 2 were just utter garbage in this aspect - all containers looked very similiar, could be used to store anything and generally were a pain to use, it felt like 80% of the items you found in the game were complete useless trash or used for crafting - which was mostly a useless gimmick to begin with. There were items *everywhere* and there were *so many* of them. I literally stopped playing both games multiple times for long periods of time because of my frustration caused by this - after a few hours of playing nothing felt rewarding, I didn't care about anything i found or bought and everything item-related felt more like a chore rather than fun. I think even games like The Witcher 3 are worse than the classics in this regard, despite advancements in the UI department compared to older games (although 'consolifcation' and not having seperate UIs for mouse/keyboard and gamepads is a major issue in PC RPG UIs, rendering them less robust than they could have been). It feels like every RPG game is trying to use a mix of diablo-like and classic-like approach to items, unfortunately mixing the worst elements of the two most of the time. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7982 Posts
On October 20 2020 08:09 Manit0u wrote: I mean, the problem with BG was that the story was pretty much forced upon you (there was only an illusion of choice) and the NPCs that you interacted with (your party) were absolutely obnoxious for the most part. IWD definitely didn't have that much story behind it (although I'm not sure if I like shoehorned story that much) but it had way better atmosphere, graphics, music and combat. I think way too many people tend to view BG through nostalgia lens. BG2 was much better than BG1 and I still think it might've been worse than IWD (maybe except for the Underdark part). BG was just too confused about what it was (which was heavily combat-oriented game with pretense for story and bad combat encounters) to be really great. IWD while simpler and more linear was totally honest about what it was: bare-bones story with awesome combat encounters (and where villains had more than 1 dimension and were actually interesting, as opposed to BG where bad guys were bad because they like being bad). I mean, in IWD you had villainous enemies that made you feel bad after you defeated them because you could totally understand their motivations and actually even get behind them. They were sad and tragic characters, not just derpy run-of-the mill bad guys. Really? I loved the NPCs in BG. They were sooo well written. Minsc and Boo? Edwin? Jan Jansen? Those were proper RP NPCs. Also the story was forced upon you but you had choice over what order you wanted to do your quests, you could spend time chilling between dungeons, they were a ton to explore, etc. It felt very free. Oh and you absolutely could decide to be a total dick, even though that was rarely optimal play. Icewind Dale was just one linear succession of dungeons where you wouldn't talk to anyone, your party had no personality whatsoever... I never managed to finish them. I still play BG (have a game going right now). There are still (really good) mods to discover and new parties to make, even after 20 years. I mostly play with custom parties because I know the game so well, and powergame with the hardest mods, and it's still fun. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10852 Posts
Imho (A)D&D low level combat is just horrible, once your level 5/6+ things get better (to get worse in the truely epic levels again). I finnished IWD2 and had fun with it, after the first few level ups, it had a few memorable dungeons but I actually don't clearly remember any of the fights in any detail. It was fun/decent for what it was but it is nowhere near BG2 when it comes to the full package. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17665 Posts
On October 22 2020 23:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: Really? I loved the NPCs in BG. They were sooo well written. Minsc and Boo? Edwin? Jan Jansen? Those were proper RP NPCs. Also the story was forced upon you but you had choice over what order you wanted to do your quests, you could spend time chilling between dungeons, they were a ton to explore, etc. It felt very free. Oh and you absolutely could decide to be a total dick, even though that was rarely optimal play. Icewind Dale was just one linear succession of dungeons where you wouldn't talk to anyone, your party had no personality whatsoever... I never managed to finish them. I still play BG (have a game going right now). There are still (really good) mods to discover and new parties to make, even after 20 years. I mostly play with custom parties because I know the game so well, and powergame with the hardest mods, and it's still fun. Minsc was atrocious. I couldn't stand him - he was fun for a few brief moments but then it got stale really fast. The forced romance and constant bickering was just annoying too. IWD had the advantage that it didn't hide what it was, a dungeon crawler first and foremost (and that's what 99% D&D games are all about). If you want to do a nuanced RPG with emphasis on role playing you shouldn't do it using the D&D system. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10852 Posts
You give 1 wrong answer and all of the 3 romances irreversibly break and it's often not clear which answer that (you'll know when you fucked up in the next interraction  ). How can you call that "forced"? Let alone that one of the three tended to bug out or not progress because you were likely to never do what was necessary to progress it. | ||
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Lysteria
France2280 Posts
Took me like 10 years to know it was even a thing. I enjoyed the IWD games but I have absolutely no memory of any of them. The fights were a bit more on the fair side and you didn't have to know too much to do decently. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7982 Posts
On October 23 2020 00:22 Manit0u wrote: Minsc was atrocious. I couldn't stand him - he was fun for a few brief moments but then it got stale really fast. The forced romance and constant bickering was just annoying too. IWD had the advantage that it didn't hide what it was, a dungeon crawler first and foremost (and that's what 99% D&D games are all about). If you want to do a nuanced RPG with emphasis on role playing you shouldn't do it using the D&D system. T-t-t Minsc was AWESOME. | ||
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Sorusaba
294 Posts
Boo says fight hard, so I fight hard. Absolutely agreed!! | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On October 19 2020 23:33 Manit0u wrote: No love for Icewind Dale? I think I liked it even more than BG. Icewind Dale is what happens when someone tries to make a Diablo game by using the byzantine mechanical structure of Second Edition AD&D - though that description's unfair to the character and ambience of Diablo. Why anyone would use AD&D for that purpose is beyond me. It's not as noticeable in Baldur's Gate, but it's a dead weight on Planescape: Torment. I grew up playing it and had a lot of fun when I didn't know of any better system, but it's a horror looking back. I've tried completing Icewind Dale a couple of times and always reach that point where I encounter the Fire Giants and realise I have no idea why I'm doing anything and I get the same feeling I've gotten when I realise I've been tricked into playing a boring mind-killer of a game by logging in for daily quests. Icewind Dale is my second most hated RPG after Tecmo's Secret of the Stars. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17665 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11752 Posts
On October 23 2020 09:23 Manit0u wrote: Well, D&D is actually pretty cool once you get what it's about - and that's just a series of encounters, each being a logic puzzle you need to solve (party positioning, what spells to cast in which order etc.). It is great for that, but it's atrocious for anything non-combat related (for non-combat stuff you want systems like WoD). I am going to have to stop me from totally nerding out with regards to indie TTRPGs. Suffice it to be said that there is a lot of really cool narrative stuff out there to be played at a gaming table. (Or sadly only at an online table currently due to stupid covid). Not only D&D and other major systems like WoD. That being said, i also remember enjoying Icewind Dale quite a lot for what it was. D&D (in all its iterations) is actually a pretty reasonable tactics game system, that is what it is known for in the TTRPG-scene too. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
But playing actual AD&D is one thing. Transposing it into a mindless hack & slash video game is taking rules that are created in the context of being usable by a group of people around a table with nothing but pen, paper and dice, and applying it to a medium with a built-in calculator. I'm certainly glad I didn't have to deal with the mechanical systems while playing these games, but it raises the question of why they were included at all. And even if you, for some reason that is beyond my conception, really wanted to play Diablo but with dice rolls and a ridiculous levelling curve, then Icewind Dale is still bad. Durlag's Tower from Tales of the Sword Coast is just a better dungeon crawler. | ||
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Yurie
12037 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11752 Posts
Diablo is about fast action, reflexes and blowing up screens full of enemies in seconds. IWD combat is a lot more tactical and less action focused, to the point where it felt like a turn-based tactics game (Despite being real-time-ish) I think a much better comparison would be something like X-Com, and to me it filled the same niche of games. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On October 22 2020 23:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: Really? I loved the NPCs in BG. They were sooo well written. Minsc and Boo? Edwin? Jan Jansen? Those were proper RP NPCs. Also the story was forced upon you but you had choice over what order you wanted to do your quests, you could spend time chilling between dungeons, they were a ton to explore, etc. It felt very free. Oh and you absolutely could decide to be a total dick, even though that was rarely optimal play. Icewind Dale was just one linear succession of dungeons where you wouldn't talk to anyone, your party had no personality whatsoever... I never managed to finish them. I still play BG (have a game going right now). There are still (really good) mods to discover and new parties to make, even after 20 years. I mostly play with custom parties because I know the game so well, and powergame with the hardest mods, and it's still fun. I agree, and I might even go further: there hasn't been a single RPG that has done party NPC interactions as well as BG2 despite it being a 20 year old game. Well, Dragon Age Origins did, but I'm hard pressed to think of another As for "the story being forced upon you", that's just having a linear story progression (in BG's case, with ample stops for sidequests). There's nothing inherently wrong with that, so long as the story is well told and engaging. RPGs don't necessarily require meaningful choices in the main quest, especially in a black-and-white story like BG2 (not much nuance in "evil mage stole your sister then your soul" and again, that's fine) | ||
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