On May 15 2017 00:32 Foxxan wrote: Everything ive said in this thread is coming to a reality. Damn, my gamedesign radar is fucking amazing. Not sure i have mentioned this yet, but i really wish they made changes so its encouraged to play other styles other than the "poke from far distance".
Perfect opportunity with quake champions. Either way, quake 3 feels like the better game which is very very sad. Either they make drastically changes over 4-8 weeks or the game will be doomed.
Have you tried paladins? In terms of having shorter range duels that's probably the closest in the FPS genre. However, basic movement speed is unfortunately quite low.
Have not tried it. Does it have 1v1 matchmaking? I gues it doesnt, seems to relie on the teampart to much for that. I bet it has cooldown on abilities aswell? Oh well, iam not to fond of teamagames like that. But if it have no cooldowns on its abilities but instead a resource or something, i would maybe want to try it.
I mostly want a game which has a good 1v1 format/mode at its core.
No it's like overwatch but higher TTK, supports aren't just health-bots and also a "kind-of" talent system like HOTS. Personally I thought it was relatively fun and had potential while I played it in the beta. As a consequence I preordered Overwatch, but quickly refunded it since I didn't like that game at all.
Alright. I most likely wont try it. You like quake champion btw?
I guess I have a similar opinion as you. Not sure about the whole "control items while poking from a long distance"-thing. From watching prof 1v1 matches, the duel gameplay in Quake doesn't really appeal to me but I haven't really given it that much of a chance.
I think teamgames can be great though as long as they have strategic depth along with high carry potential.
It's all about using your weapons intelligently, mind gaming the opponent and incredible aim. I don't really like how duel is handled in quake champions atm though, but hey maybe it could be good.
I agree it should be normal, but not for cases when you are full on hp, picked up a mega, and have full armor. It basically means that with a squishier character you can play perfectly, control the entire map, but the enemy just needs 2 lucky hits with a railgun for you to die. That's too squishy imo. I'm not against having characters with different amounts of HP/Armor, but such differences, and such a small max value for some of the champs is too much.
People suggested that you have to download the whole game for each patch, is that true? Typically i would say there is no way, but after i closed the launcher expecting it to retsart the download where i left and it actually started from 0% again, i am not sure if that's so unrealistic. The launcher is terrible...
edit: tried to play it but every time the map is finished loading i lose connection to the server. Well :/
On May 16 2017 00:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: edit: tried to play it but every time the map is finished loading i lose connection to the server. Well :/
I had a similar issue first time I tried to play the game too. Game was nearly over by the time I finished loading (and my computer locked up for 5 minutes after I closed it). The issue wasn't present the next day.
On May 15 2017 00:32 Foxxan wrote: Everything ive said in this thread is coming to a reality. Damn, my gamedesign radar is fucking amazing. Not sure i have mentioned this yet, but i really wish they made changes so its encouraged to play other styles other than the "poke from far distance".
Perfect opportunity with quake champions. Either way, quake 3 feels like the better game which is very very sad. Either they make drastically changes over 4-8 weeks or the game will be doomed.
Have you tried paladins? In terms of having shorter range duels that's probably the closest in the FPS genre. However, basic movement speed is unfortunately quite low.
Have not tried it. Does it have 1v1 matchmaking? I gues it doesnt, seems to relie on the teampart to much for that. I bet it has cooldown on abilities aswell? Oh well, iam not to fond of teamagames like that. But if it have no cooldowns on its abilities but instead a resource or something, i would maybe want to try it.
I mostly want a game which has a good 1v1 format/mode at its core.
No it's like overwatch but higher TTK, supports aren't just health-bots and also a "kind-of" talent system like HOTS. Personally I thought it was relatively fun and had potential while I played it in the beta. As a consequence I preordered Overwatch, but quickly refunded it since I didn't like that game at all.
Alright. I most likely wont try it. You like quake champion btw?
I guess I have a similar opinion as you. Not sure about the whole "control items while poking from a long distance"-thing. From watching prof 1v1 matches, the duel gameplay in Quake doesn't really appeal to me but I haven't really given it that much of a chance.
I think teamgames can be great though as long as they have strategic depth along with high carry potential.
Alright. While you watch quake 3, you notice the keeping distance, not necesarrily super long distance while poking with railgun/rocket? Thats what i mean by that pretty much. Only move close when enemy is low or get a very good position ~
A better imaginary explanation, its a cat and mouse race with little actual duels.
Live stream tomorrow with developers of the game. Design talk is on the list. Lets see if they are happy with this poor product or if they will change things up so there are actually interractions and skill being used with the champion abilities, meanwhile making actually more gamestyles possible while making the champions have more specific gamestyles how they move but also in combat with their passive effects.
Really poor game so far imo. Still not to far behind quake 3 but seriously something needs to be done about the core of the game, it needs a refreshment. Poke, poke, poke. Then cloak with nyx. How the fuck is that called esport, thats pathetic.
On May 18 2017 00:16 Foxxan wrote: Live stream tomorrow with developers of the game. Design talk is on the list. Lets see if they are happy with this poor product or if they will change things up so there are actually interractions and skill being used with the champion abilities, meanwhile making actually more gamestyles possible while making the champions have more specific gamestyles how they move but also in combat with their passive effects.
Really poor game so far imo. Still not to far behind quake 3 but seriously something needs to be done about the core of the game, it needs a refreshment. Poke, poke, poke. Then cloak with nyx. How the fuck is that called esport, thats pathetic.
What is wrong with "poke poke poke" ? Why does it need to be close range? You try to control the map and the items until you are confident you can force a frag. There is a lot of skill involved there. I guess if it is too passive it might be a problem, i can see that. But at least it's actual skill which decides these games and not overpowered abilities like in other shooters these days.
With that being said, still cannot play the game The launcher is terrible and the netcode as well.
Nothing wrong with poke but thats what you do 80%+ of the time. You dont actually do any duels, you jump around the map and poke the enemy while he pokes you. When someone is low the game turns into a cat and mouse type of game.
Same in quake 3.
Then qc comes and the abilities discourage aggression even further than quake 3. Some champs have abilities that are good at close range or middle range or both. So even further encouraging to keep distance and do the poking instead.
Thats what items encourage aswell, a cat and mouse type of game. A little less now maybe but hp and movement is changed on the champs so thats different as well. But nothing they have made, absolutely nothing has actually enhanced or improved the gameplay. Except perhaps bigger maps, thats a good thing.
And then iam not even talking about rng spawn location either. On one map in duel, you can spawn at the start of the game at two locations. The one who start closer to the railgun has advantage. Iam not even talking much about the meta either, get railgun and denie it from the enemy, have an advantage.Thats what many games become. About the rng spawn, thats something that shouldnt be in beta, or at the very least tell the players where you will spawn so you can choose the "correct" champ for that location. Either way this isnt even that big of a deal and easy to change.
Well, then we have this meta of weapons which is cl, rg, and rl(chain lightning, railgun and rocket launcher). What is wrong with trying to spice it up a bit, or perhaps even add some utility weapon so actually moving close to the enemy and make moves that way so the fight doesnt end in second and tactics are possible. I dont get these developers but will be interesting tomorrow.
Like let me focus a bit more what i mean with they not improving gameplay a bit with qc. We have these champions with poor abilities, little to no counterplay here. And if you can counter it its usually in an uninintersting way. But that aside, we also have these passive effects on the champs and while they could actually encourage different playstyles they do not.
You are not playing the game, but lets take ranger for example. He has a passive effect: "25% reduced self-damage". Alright ,nice. This will encourage rocket jumping even more(its still good on other champs without this ability) and maybe even can be used in direct-combat. This could perhaps be increased further and than his ability could synergise with this effect so now we have this very different style of a champion.
I am not sure i wanna talk about the coodlowns either, holy moly. When a champion is out of cooldown, what do you want to do? Fight without it? Nope you want to wait for it. Just cut the cooldowns.... I leave it at that.
Nothing wrong with poke but thats what you do 80%+ of the time. You dont actually do any duels, you jump around the map and poke the enemy while he pokes you. When someone is low the game turns into a cat and mouse type of game.
Same in quake 3.
Well yes that is what you do in shooters which have a "long" ttk. You make sure the actual engagement is worth it. The same happens in OW as well for example, there the engagement is triggered by ultimate advantage.
Also you have to realize that defensive, safe play will always be better/more stable in competitive formats. If the meta evolves enough that is. I cannot say too much about the specific champions because i simply couldn't play it yet, but i don't quite understand what you want to happen for duel. I completely agree that if it gets too passive it becomes a problem, but if there is a nice pacing of control + planning and then actual engagements i think it's fine. Maybe QC is already too passive ? (that's obviously quite a bit subjective) I guess i should watch it on a daily basis to decide ^^
If you want constant fights and fast speed with very little +backing you can start playing some quakeworld. A game that fast is never going to become popular but its a fun game to play and to watch.
Well yes that is what you do in shooters which have a "long" ttk. You make sure the actual engagement is worth it. The same happens in OW as well for example, there the engagement is triggered by ultimate advantage.
Only if the game is designed to reward risk-averse players. With a different type of game-design you can punish players for retreating from an engagement.
I dont know what ttk is? Did you mean attack? Or do you mean railgun? This isnt an ordinary shooter, this is a fast paced one with more health than normal. We have 100% dps weapons as well, and the abilites/champions arent designed with much in mind it seems. Ofcourse we will get the quake 3 feel with nothing really added.
What iam talking about is actually encouraged to move close, to have different styles champion wise and player wise. PERFECT OPPORTUNITY with quake champion.
Also you have to realize that defensive, safe play will always be better/more stable in competitive formats. If the meta evolves enough that is.
Not sure you understand. The game is designed around this, thats why. Moving close is suicide. Ofcourse the meta will be "stay at range and poke" if the tools encourage that way more than not.
Iam not talking about going all-in, being frantic. Rolling a dice. Iam talking about pro players, that can play a way more aggressive style with skills and no rng. You know actually doing moves.
Chain lightinig vs chain lightning duel. Not much is going on except accuracy and movement battle. Right? Enchance the experience, thats what the champions are supposed to do. Or even without them, enhance it by adding utility weapon, or even items. Idc, make quake a better game thats the point. Its a reason quake 3 live didnt become an active game, people would play it if it was a good one.
EDIT: Also there is a mod called rocket arena, or clan arena its the same in quake 3. No items on map. A very small map. Start with all weapons and full armor/health. This mode is way more fun than playing on a map with items because you actually fight there against each other. Alot of poking, yes, but its such a small map so stuff is happening all the time.
I think, that people prefer that over the normal mode with items. Its less cat and mouse bullshit there.
Forgot to say: Nothign to do with having a really great ranged weapon in the game, thats not the reason its discouraged to move close. Rocket launcher is such a deadly weapon to be aggressive against. Most likely projectileweapons are deadly to go against when you chase aswell. Its the general core of the game that needs a fix for it to work.
Well yes that is what you do in shooters which have a "long" ttk. You make sure the actual engagement is worth it. The same happens in OW as well for example, there the engagement is triggered by ultimate advantage.
Only if the game is designed to reward risk-averse players. With a different type of game-design you can punish players for retreating from an engagement.
Sure but how do you apply this to a game which should still feel like quake? Any suggestions?
On May 18 2017 03:56 Foxxan wrote: I dont know what ttk is? Did you mean attack? Or do you mean railgun? This isnt an ordinary shooter, this is a fast paced one with more health than normal. We have 100% dps weapons as well, and the abilites/champions arent designed with much in mind it seems. Ofcourse we will get the quake 3 feel with nothing really added.
What iam talking about is actually encouraged to move close, to have different styles champion wise and player wise. PERFECT OPPORTUNITY with quake champion.
Also you have to realize that defensive, safe play will always be better/more stable in competitive formats. If the meta evolves enough that is.
Not sure you understand. The game is designed around this, thats why. Moving close is suicide. Ofcourse the meta will be "stay at range and poke" if the tools encourage that way more than not.
Iam not talking about going all-in, being frantic. Rolling a dice. Iam talking about pro players, that can play a way more aggressive style with skills and no rng. You know actually doing moves.
Chain lightinig vs chain lightning duel. Not much is going on except accuracy and movement battle. Right? Enchance the experience, thats what the champions are supposed to do. Or even without them, enhance it by adding utility weapon, or even items. Idc, make quake a better game thats the point. Its a reason quake 3 live didnt become an active game, people would play it if it was a good one.
EDIT: Also there is a mod called rocket arena, or clan arena its the same in quake 3. No items on map. A very small map. Start with all weapons and full armor/health. This mode is way more fun than playing on a map with items because you actually fight there against each other. Alot of poking, yes, but its such a small map so stuff is happening all the time.
I think, that people prefer that over the normal mode with items. Its less cat and mouse bullshit there.
"time to kill". I was simply suggesting that no matter how the game is designed, players will always try to play defensively at a certain point. It's safer, more stable. Quake still has to feel like quake, and in quake you wanna control certain items on the map. Lots of mindgames and understanding routes, etc. I also don't believe that constant fighting is actually more fun in general. Pacing is really important, having action 24/7 means each move has less impact on you. Finding a nice balance is the key here. I think you simply don't like quake style games, i don't think that your analysis of "quake 3 live would be played if it was good applies at all" , sometimes it's simply about quality of live features.
I love quake style games. I never said action 24/7. I never said poking shouldnt be possible. Rocket arena/clan arena has no items. Its the superior mod imo.
This? Well i really don't think there is any pacing there.
most of the clips there are 1x1's or 2x2's on the super small maps, so it's not as fun to watch. You can search for better vids on youtube that highlight the actual mod how it is in stuff like 10x10 or so. RA3 was the ultimate Clan-Arena experience and was a superb mod. It had everything minus the item control.
RA3 or CA were never played in big tournaments cause there is no incentive to move. Being the aggressor puts you at a disadvantage because rocket and nade spamming corners or +backing with rail was the way to go if you actually wanted to win. I know its a fun game when people are running at each other and taking aim duels but as a real competitive game for tournaments and such its useless.
I am no fan of this at all tbh, it completely negates the strategy behind duel. It might be fun to frag a lot in a team environment, but we were talking duels here, 1vs1. At that point getting rid of item control seems bad to me.
What i mean with pacing? There is no buildup to the action. It's just action 24/7. You remove so much strategy there. I don't see how this is "better", it's just different with a focus on action and strategy gets removed.
EPT
The launcher is terrible and the netcode as well.
