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On January 13 2016 05:13 Souma wrote:
This is why the west is still behind.
Koreans have long realized that coaching and experience as a top level player are two completely different things and that you don't need to be a pro player to know how to coach or analyze. You would think people on a BW/SC2 forum would know this by now.
Hell most top level players, especially in North America, have no idea what the hell they're talking about. Maybe if they realized how bad they actually were they'd be able change their mindset and put up significant results at majors.
But alas, we Invite, we smart.
this is pretty irrelevant considering cs has been dominated by Europeans, or more specifically, Swedish players.
NA's problem has nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with egos and selfish plays. all you need to realize this is watch a stream of na fpl vs eu fpl.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Because Koreans have the most advanced infrastructure in all of esports? If Korea took a massive interest in CS:GO I assure you they'd overwhelm everyone.
NA's issues are abundant, and ego goes hand in hand with not realizing how dumb they are when they say stupid things like "you must be a high level player to coach."
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On January 13 2016 05:43 SyNc` wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 05:13 Souma wrote:
This is why the west is still behind.
Koreans have long realized that coaching and experience as a top level player are two completely different things and that you don't need to be a pro player to know how to coach or analyze. You would think people on a BW/SC2 forum would know this by now.
Hell most top level players, especially in North America, have no idea what the hell they're talking about. Maybe if they realized how bad they actually were they'd be able change their mindset and put up significant results at majors.
But alas, we Invite, we smart. this is pretty irrelevant considering cs has been dominated by Europeans, or more specifically, Swedish players. NA's problem has nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with egos and selfish plays. all you need to realize this is watch a stream of na fpl vs eu fpl.
S1mple will fit right in..
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On January 13 2016 05:50 Souma wrote:
Because Koreans have the most advanced infrastructure in all of esports? If Korea took a massive interest in CS:GO I assure you they'd overwhelm everyone.
NA's issues are abundant, and ego goes hand in hand with not realizing how dumb they are when they say stupid things like "you must be a high level player to coach."
I don't think they would tbh. they only had like one internationally relevant 1.6 team but either way SK and navi completely dominated 1.6. sadly though I dont think koreans will ever get involved in csgo so we won't be able to find out for sure.
On January 13 2016 06:00 Dundron2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 05:43 SyNc` wrote:On January 13 2016 05:13 Souma wrote:
This is why the west is still behind.
Koreans have long realized that coaching and experience as a top level player are two completely different things and that you don't need to be a pro player to know how to coach or analyze. You would think people on a BW/SC2 forum would know this by now.
Hell most top level players, especially in North America, have no idea what the hell they're talking about. Maybe if they realized how bad they actually were they'd be able change their mindset and put up significant results at majors.
But alas, we Invite, we smart. this is pretty irrelevant considering cs has been dominated by Europeans, or more specifically, Swedish players. NA's problem has nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with egos and selfish plays. all you need to realize this is watch a stream of na fpl vs eu fpl. S1mple will fit right in..
yeah but simple is actually insane on an individual level and by far better than any player in NA. if his attitude changes I can see it working out.
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Liquid gets S1mple... and C9 gets *fucking Stewie2k*. At least I have a TL shirt and just a C9 wristband.
My heart is still broken from bae leaving 
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On January 13 2016 05:50 Souma wrote:
Because Koreans have the most advanced infrastructure in all of esports? If Korea took a massive interest in CS:GO I assure you they'd overwhelm everyone.
NA's issues are abundant, and ego goes hand in hand with not realizing how dumb they are when they say stupid things like "you must be a high level player to coach."
I dont think so. CS in so ingrained in European and to a lesser extent NA esports culture that I honestly don't think there is enough korean talent to compete with the current and up and coming western talent. Also, communication is such a huge part of top level cs and its the kind of stuff you cant just pick up from watching demos. I highly doubt that even if koreans were able to form pro csgo teams that they would be able to catch up on the meta and tactics required for top level play any time soon. I mean, people are complaining about gbjames being a coach but honestly, what korean would you pickup to coach a koreans csgo team? The talent and knowledge just isn't there, let alone the interest.
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I dont buy it either. If we look at broodwar and compare the infastructure its a massive difference. Korean is miles ahead and therefore could dominate as much as they did.
But when it comes to counter strike, The infastructure is miles ahead of the one they had in broodwar for the european scene. If korea comes in and is serious about it, and we give them time to get into meta, learn to communicate properly etc. 1-2 years, would korea dominate?
I doubt it. I cant see Koreas infastructure beeing better than the europeans.
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I take it as a good sign that so many of the NA teams were/are trying to get Valens as their IGL/coach (to kind of go with Souma's point about NA coaching). He isn't the best player but he has the mind and attitude/personality to do it well.
If C9 can get Valens, I would actually like their offseason...even as much or more than Liquid's who I still think has done the best so far.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On January 13 2016 06:32 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 05:50 Souma wrote:
Because Koreans have the most advanced infrastructure in all of esports? If Korea took a massive interest in CS:GO I assure you they'd overwhelm everyone.
NA's issues are abundant, and ego goes hand in hand with not realizing how dumb they are when they say stupid things like "you must be a high level player to coach." I dont think so. CS in so ingrained in European and to a lesser extent NA esports culture that I honestly don't think there is enough korean talent to compete with the current and up and coming western talent. Also, communication is such a huge part of top level cs and its the kind of stuff you cant just pick up from watching demos. I highly doubt that even if koreans were able to form pro csgo teams that they would be able to catch up on the meta and tactics required for top level play any time soon. I mean, people are complaining about gbjames being a coach but honestly, what korean would you pickup to coach a koreans csgo team? The talent and knowledge just isn't there, let alone the interest.
I guess you didn't follow League. Koreans imported coaches straight from SC and took no time to dominate the scene at all--European, Chinese or otherwise.
You guys are really, really underestimating just how much their infrastructure and culture can propel them to the top of any game they wanted to take seriously. You don't need to play a game at a top level to be a good coach. Lord knows Bill Belichick has dominated the NFL while never playing professionally.
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On January 13 2016 07:30 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 06:32 HugoBallzak wrote:On January 13 2016 05:50 Souma wrote:
Because Koreans have the most advanced infrastructure in all of esports? If Korea took a massive interest in CS:GO I assure you they'd overwhelm everyone.
NA's issues are abundant, and ego goes hand in hand with not realizing how dumb they are when they say stupid things like "you must be a high level player to coach." I dont think so. CS in so ingrained in European and to a lesser extent NA esports culture that I honestly don't think there is enough korean talent to compete with the current and up and coming western talent. Also, communication is such a huge part of top level cs and its the kind of stuff you cant just pick up from watching demos. I highly doubt that even if koreans were able to form pro csgo teams that they would be able to catch up on the meta and tactics required for top level play any time soon. I mean, people are complaining about gbjames being a coach but honestly, what korean would you pickup to coach a koreans csgo team? The talent and knowledge just isn't there, let alone the interest. I guess you didn't follow League. Koreans imported coaches straight from SC and took no time to dominate the scene at all--European, Chinese or otherwise. You guys are really, really underestimating just how much their infrastructure and culture can propel them to the top of any game they wanted to take seriously. You don't need to play a game at a top level to be a good coach. Lord knows Bill Belichick has dominated the NFL while never playing professionally.
yeah but belichick was around the coaching scene in the NFL for 20 yrs before becoming a dominant coach. we're talking about taking random people with little to no experience in csgo and making them coaches for top teams. james has basically played invite in 1.6, played a few months of go when it was brand new, disappeared for 2 yrs, and came back as a coach for liquid. it's not like he spent yrs analyzing and watching the meta develop.
not to mention that 1.6 was such a different game tactically than csgo. 1.6 revolved around slow defaults and executes. this game is a lot more fast paced and random. it rewards risk taking, force buys, aggressive plays and heavily relies on aim, which is why you see a new gen players going pro.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Imagine if he didn't get his first coaching gig because he didn't play professionally though. Like seriously, the amount of potential the NA community neglects is terrible.
Let's not bring up 1.6 as it's not really relevant. Players like pronax, TaZ etc. are doing just fine. It's not about who played what game, at what level etc. etc., it's about individuals having the ability to properly analyze and coach, which is completely separate from everything else. Is GBJames a good coach? I couldn't tell you as I don't know what kind of influence he's had on the team if any.
The question is: Can someone be a good coach without ever having played at a high level? The answer is an astounding yes, and I could give you many, many examples throughout esports and real sports.
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1.6 experience is not relevant but Korean infrastructure and their potential to dominate is relevant. lel....
The issue for FPS games is that Koreans will never embrace foreign games, they have their f2p crossfires and such. I can guarantee you more people are playing warcraft 3 than they are CS at PC bangs.
This idea that Koreans would dominate if they invested in it has the same sort of hypothetical on the flip side. What if Europeans had Korean infrastructure ? Would Korea then be able to compete if they were interested in it ?
These are meaningless hypotheticals that Thorin will wave at you because, hes Thorin, and as you rightly pointed have nothing to do with someones ability to coach, but still felt necessary to mention. Now that having been said.
Can someone coach if they havent played at a high level ? Sure. Are you a better coach if you can add high level skills and experience to coaching ability. Absolutely.
That having been said, James in particular has no record of either. And to say you cant see any impact so its hard to judge. Welllll if you cant see any impact. Thats kind of a thing to notice right there
You know who takes alot of the the stick when players underperform ? The coach. And i could give you many, many examples throughout esports and real sports.
I dont particularly dislike James, and I find it hard to pinpoint Liquids problems myself. But there isnt much you can defend him with at the moment. Isolating the narrative to can coaches coach without being good players doesnt change that.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Seriously you always gurgle words around and make zero sense every time you try to argue something, like what the shit.
This idea that Koreans would dominate if they invested in it has the same sort of hypothetical on the flip side. What if Europeans had Korean infrastructure ? Would Korea then be able to compete if they were interested in it
Duh. If you gave Europeans and North Americans the same infrastructure the Koreans have, they'd improve, but all things being equal on that front Koreans would still be better due to their work ethic.
Not even sure why Thorin was brought up, so skipping that.
Can someone coach if they havent played at a high level ? Sure. Are you a better coach if you can add high level skills and experience to coaching ability. Absolutely.
I don't get this part. Are you trying to say coaches who have experience playing at a high level are default better than coaches who don't have that experience? Because that'd be a pretty stupid statement.
In regards to GB James, it's not known how much say he has in terms of strats, etc., so you can't say he doesn't understand CS:GO tactics. However what you can say is he probably has a low impact and thus should be replaced regardless. Either way I don't really care as I'm not defending him by any means; rather, I'm saying anyone who thinks high-level play experience is necessary to be a good coach is a moron who should be crucified for such an obsolete way of thinking.
You know who takes alot of the the stick when players underperform ? The coach. And i could give you many, many examples throughout esports and real sports.
... okay?
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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Netherlands45349 Posts
if simple stays in TL and TL do well fuck it im buying a Simple jersey lmao
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There's generally a lot of roles that a team needs outside of playing. The more of those that players don't need to do the better they can focus on playing.
I'd say my biggest single point about coaching in esports is that the balance between coach and captain puts too much responsibility on captains (or igls - whatever you want to call them... Actually, IGL and captain shouldn't be synonymous either).
+ Show Spoiler +When I pick someone to be a captain of my defense (I'm a defensive coordinator - American football) I look at a lot of things: Do I pick the best player? The guy that knows the rules the best? (Captains are the ones that talk to referees on the field.) Who do the players respect/follow the most? Do I make it a position that changes each week as a reward for performance/effort that week?
On January 13 2016 05:43 SyNc` wrote:
NA's problem has nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with egos and selfish plays. all you need to realize this is watch a stream of na fpl vs eu fpl.
This is really one of those overlooked factors of coaching; getting attitudes in check. Making a group of individuals work as a team - believing in each other and themselves.
This is a role that I feel shouldn't be left to a player. This is also usually one of the roles that "former players" (in any sport) struggle with the most.
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On January 13 2016 10:24 Souma wrote:Seriously you always gurgle words around and make zero sense every time you try to argue something, like what the shit. Show nested quote +This idea that Koreans would dominate if they invested in it has the same sort of hypothetical on the flip side. What if Europeans had Korean infrastructure ? Would Korea then be able to compete if they were interested in it Duh. If you gave Europeans and North Americans the same infrastructure the Koreans have, they'd improve, but all things being equal on that front Koreans would still be better due to their work ethic. Not even sure why Thorin was brought up, so skipping that. Show nested quote +Can someone coach if they havent played at a high level ? Sure. Are you a better coach if you can add high level skills and experience to coaching ability. Absolutely. I don't get this part. Are you trying to say coaches who have experience playing at a high level are default better than coaches who don't have that experience? Because that'd be a pretty stupid statement. In regards to GB James, it's not known how much say he has in terms of strats, etc., so you can't say he doesn't understand CS:GO tactics. However what you can say is he probably has a low impact and thus should be replaced regardless. Either way I don't really care as I'm not defending him by any means; rather, I'm saying anyone who thinks high-level play experience is necessary to be a good coach is a moron who should be crucified for such an obsolete way of thinking. Show nested quote +You know who takes alot of the the stick when players underperform ? The coach. And i could give you many, many examples throughout esports and real sports. ... okay?
Oh right all things being equal (which they arent and never will be) Koreans are just better because work ethic.. right .
Thorin was brought up because the kind of argument you are making seems like a a transcript of what he is saying. Just some perspective.
its a pretty straight forward statement, If you "add" high level playing experience to an existing ability to coach. You are a better coach than someone with just coaching ability. I dont think a high level player translates to coach at all. But if you have coaching talent being a high level player just makes you better. Its basic math.
okay what ? it was just a supplement to the point I made before that.
Thats a reflection on the coach as much as anything else whether its strats, player motivation what have you. They need to have an impact on all of them. Atleast some kind of impact or input. If he doesnt have any say or little say on tactics hes a doing a bad job, if he does hes still doing a bad job. Its harsh but its true.
The point isnt that he should get kicked or whatever, the point is that just to establish that so far he hasnt done a very good job and he never really had much of a CV to work with so you can use that as perhaps some explanation as to why he is not been successful so far. That has nothing to do with whether coaches need to be former players. But there are certain players with a proclivity for coaching that have high level experience. And that makes them better coaches. If you cant accept that then we can just agree to disagree. Anyone can demo watch and make notes if they have a basic understanding of the game.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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not surprised, no one wants to play with frod
sick to tsm i bet
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Yeah I agree that Korea would dominate any esport game if they embraced it. Thorin made a 30 minute video about this a year ago and provides some nice examples.
www.youtube.com
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EPT
