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On January 13 2016 00:26 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 00:20 Muffloe wrote:I actually read that without even reacting, haha. Although to James defense it's difficult to know a coach's impact without some insight in the team. Thorin mainly does not like James because he tried to argue with Thorin (in front of Nazgul) because he did not like how Thorin portrayed his career in his "Who is" video about him. + Show Spoiler +The story is here, the whole thing is absolutely hilarious to be honest and it is not that long (7min from 2h20m46 in).
I don't really care about james but that story is really not that funny. Thorin makes interesting videos but whenever he goes on the attack about something due to personal reasons (cough esl cough) its just long winded and fake sounding. James will not make or break this team.
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France9034 Posts
Thorin saying something on a person he has a quarrel with or a reason to not like him instantly triggers a red flag in my mind and I will take that with not a grain, not a pinch, but a huge bowl of salt.
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There's no reason james should be a coach on a top NA team like liquid when he has no experience in go and was a bottom feeder in invite in 1.6. James and his teams were the joke of esea invite every season they played.
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France9034 Posts
Damn, so what to think about:
“I have roughly ten years of invite level Counterstrike” James told us. “I formed the best team you could have at the time, when I was playing a few years back, which consisted of myself, mOE, DaZed, Hiko, and PineKone. We were basically unstoppable."
Is he lying? Where can we check that?
Also, on which basis would Liquid have asked him to come and coach them then?
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On January 13 2016 01:38 Ragnarork wrote:Damn, so what to think about: Show nested quote +
“I have roughly ten years of invite level Counterstrike” James told us. “I formed the best team you could have at the time, when I was playing a few years back, which consisted of myself, mOE, DaZed, Hiko, and PineKone. We were basically unstoppable."
Is he lying? Where can we check that? Also, on which basis would Liquid have asked him to come and coach them then?
he's not lying. he was invite for a LONG time but he was bad. he was the stereotypical non fragging igl that would put up shitty stats every season. the part about csgo is a stupid achievement considering the game was brand new. all those guys switched to the beta really early so when the game came out they were the best team in csgo for like 2 months because they had no real competition (teams were slowly switching but still played their respective games). eventually source and 1.6 teams began taking go seriously and pinekone and james got cut for the first season of esea invite for csgo, and dazed formed quanti with sgares, semphis and tck.
I honestly have no idea why liquid picked him as a coach. he must have given an insane sales pitch to them although adren was around for the start of go when james was playing and knows how good he was.
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Pretty sure hiko vouched for him. I honestly don't get all the focus on liquid's coach though tbh. Like who the fuck is vuggo? yet he "coaches" the greatest team of 2015 by just sitting behind them looking bored. coaches are overrated, not all teams need them or even use them the same way.
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On January 13 2016 01:56 HugoBallzak wrote:
Pretty sure hiko vouched for him. I honestly don't get all the focus on liquid's coach though tbh. Like who the fuck is vuggo? yet he "coaches" the greatest team of 2015 by just sitting behind them looking bored. coaches are overrated, not all teams need them or even use them the same way.
I agree. I don't think coaches mean as much in cs as they do in sports but its still a really questionable pickup. I don't know what he brings to the table considering his inexperience in this game. he just has no credibility imo.
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On January 12 2016 23:01 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 22:17 Roggay wrote:On January 12 2016 18:55 Kipsate wrote:
Stewie is a tad risk but what other options are there really? C9 also must be comfortable in playing with them.
Liquid has S1mple but it remains to be seen as to whether he can fit in well enough, To me its not because its Stewie, its because they have no IGL. I really doubt N0thing can do that when he barely could remember strat called by Sean the same round. Granted, it's hard to find any IGL at all in NA, but still, this team looks like a very pug-heavy style team to me, with no real strategic phylosophy. Also, regarding Liquid, to me their problem is primarily, again, their IGL. Maybe Adren will improve now that he does not need to AWP, and I really hope so, but he still does not feel like a reliable leader to me and I have no confidence in James (well I might be biased on this because of thorin's stories about him). James was a mainstay in the NA scene for over a decade. Hes never been known to be an amazing talent but hes always been the IGL and coach of up and coming players so I have no doubt of his ability to coach a team with some young talent. My only concern is his lack of firsthand csgo knowledge as he comes from a primarily 1.6 background. Thorin's stories are just that - stories. Thorin will say anything to make himself look great and everyone else look absolutely terrible. Not saying they aren't true but they are definitely embellished. Also, while coaches are becoming the norm in csgo right now, I dont think they have anywhere near the effect towards success that a solid 5 man roster does. James is not the problem with liquid, in fact, liquids results have improved somewhat since he joined. The main problem has always been adren's complete inability to awp on lan and his shit mid-round calling. S1mple can frag as well as fugly and adren combined, so hopefully adren can become more ex6tenz-ish. I dont think liquid will become a top 5 team, but I do think they will be able to do some damage if they can work together to improve for the start of the year.
I'm always interested in coaching discussions around esports. It's such a given in athletics - even individual sports - that I can't imagine a proper coach not having a considerable impact. Granted, a proper coach is probably a lot harder to find in scenes that don't have them to begin with.
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I dunno. Coaches in CS seem to be nothing but perfect scapegoats for when the players don't perform. Take nip for example. The best coaches IMO are starix and kuben. Starix actually calls the plays and Kuben knows his player's well enough and has a mutual respect with them that allows him to keep themcool and focused. Any other teams' coaches I honestly couldn't care less about. No coaching pickup is going to magically save NA.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On the topic of coaches, people that are good candidates for being a coach are people that would still rather play
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Devilwalk was a good coach, VugGod is also good but less of a psychologist.
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11589 Posts
On January 13 2016 02:09 HugoBallzak wrote:
I dunno. Coaches in CS seem to be nothing but perfect scapegoats for when the players don't perform. Take nip for example. The best coaches IMO are starix and kuben. Starix actually calls the plays and Kuben knows his player's well enough and has a mutual respect with them that allows him to keep themcool and focused. Any other teams' coaches I honestly couldn't care less about. No coaching pickup is going to magically save NA.
Nothing will magically save NA on its own, so that statement is literally meaningless.
Coaches are still an integral part of creating a successful team as CS gets more competitive. Having another mind to supplement the in-game leader's strategies with more knowledge and research is quite useful if used correctly. An outside, objective perspective on the roles of the team and how each player fits in to how the team wants to play is a boon. Are some coaches used as scapegoats? Sure they are. Are some coaches actually useful? Almost certainly.
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On January 13 2016 02:18 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 02:09 HugoBallzak wrote:
I dunno. Coaches in CS seem to be nothing but perfect scapegoats for when the players don't perform. Take nip for example. The best coaches IMO are starix and kuben. Starix actually calls the plays and Kuben knows his player's well enough and has a mutual respect with them that allows him to keep themcool and focused. Any other teams' coaches I honestly couldn't care less about. No coaching pickup is going to magically save NA. Nothing will magically save NA on its own, so that statement is literally meaningless. Coaches are still an integral part of creating a successful team as CS gets more competitive. Having another mind to supplement the in-game leader's strategies with more knowledge and research is quite useful if used correctly. An outside, objective perspective on the roles of the team and how each player fits in to how the team wants to play is a boon. Are some coaches used as scapegoats? Sure they are. Are some coaches actually useful? Almost certainly.
You basically just repeated everything I have said.
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France9034 Posts
On January 13 2016 01:58 SyNc` wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 01:56 HugoBallzak wrote:
Pretty sure hiko vouched for him. I honestly don't get all the focus on liquid's coach though tbh. Like who the fuck is vuggo? yet he "coaches" the greatest team of 2015 by just sitting behind them looking bored. coaches are overrated, not all teams need them or even use them the same way. I agree. I don't think coaches mean as much in cs as they do in sports but its still a really questionable pickup. I don't know what he brings to the table considering his inexperience in this game. he just has no credibility imo.
Or the coaching position (which may greatly vary between teams, indeed) is not about having a godlike player sitting behind the team and IGLing.
Although I wouldn't be able to prove anything, present stat or that kind of demonstration, I would think player and coach are not positions that requires the exact same skillset.
I would think there even might be the possibility that some teams use average coach to great effect by asking exactly what they can from him, and some other teams that have a great coach but don't use him to the best of his abilities.
tl;dr: The coaching position is hard to understand/analyze.
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11589 Posts
On January 13 2016 02:27 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 02:18 yamato77 wrote:On January 13 2016 02:09 HugoBallzak wrote:
I dunno. Coaches in CS seem to be nothing but perfect scapegoats for when the players don't perform. Take nip for example. The best coaches IMO are starix and kuben. Starix actually calls the plays and Kuben knows his player's well enough and has a mutual respect with them that allows him to keep themcool and focused. Any other teams' coaches I honestly couldn't care less about. No coaching pickup is going to magically save NA. Nothing will magically save NA on its own, so that statement is literally meaningless. Coaches are still an integral part of creating a successful team as CS gets more competitive. Having another mind to supplement the in-game leader's strategies with more knowledge and research is quite useful if used correctly. An outside, objective perspective on the roles of the team and how each player fits in to how the team wants to play is a boon. Are some coaches used as scapegoats? Sure they are. Are some coaches actually useful? Almost certainly. You basically just repeated everything I have said.
If that's what you think, you have some serious issues communicating your point. Your post I quoted comes across as dismissive of coaching in CS in general aside from the exceptions you list. Not exactly an endorsement of what coaching could bring to a team.
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On January 13 2016 01:25 SyNc` wrote:
There's no reason james should be a coach on a top NA team like liquid when he has no experience in go and was a bottom feeder in invite in 1.6. James and his teams were the joke of esea invite every season they played.
Thats the thing, James was very much a bottom feeder in Cal I. And if anyone remembers Cal I they know that the difference between the elite 2 maybe 3 teams in Cal I and the rest of the pack was miles.
That having been said, James has valuable CS experience. But I'm not sold on GO. its not like GB or his other teams ever displayed any real strategic oomph either.
Atleast Moses can point to a 1v4 vs a very good Begrip team to say he did someeeething..
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After reading James interview i thought this might be the best coach CS:GO has to offer. Then i read stuff about him here and i became very skeptical.
Truth is though, we dont really know much behind the scenes - who is good - who is bad
How can we really tell?
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On January 13 2016 04:02 Foxxan wrote:
After reading James interview i thought this might be the best coach CS:GO has to offer. Then i read stuff about him here and i became very skeptical.
Truth is though, we dont really know much behind the scenes - who is good - who is bad
How can we really tell?
a good way to tell would be to look at the teams performance before and after the coach is brought in. How have they changed their gameplay for the better? what improvements can be visibily seen as a result? etc.
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On January 13 2016 03:09 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 01:58 SyNc` wrote:On January 13 2016 01:56 HugoBallzak wrote:
Pretty sure hiko vouched for him. I honestly don't get all the focus on liquid's coach though tbh. Like who the fuck is vuggo? yet he "coaches" the greatest team of 2015 by just sitting behind them looking bored. coaches are overrated, not all teams need them or even use them the same way. I agree. I don't think coaches mean as much in cs as they do in sports but its still a really questionable pickup. I don't know what he brings to the table considering his inexperience in this game. he just has no credibility imo. Or the coaching position (which may greatly vary between teams, indeed) is not about having a godlike player sitting behind the team and IGLing. Although I wouldn't be able to prove anything, present stat or that kind of demonstration, I would think player and coach are not positions that requires the exact same skillset. I would think there even might be the possibility that some teams use average coach to great effect by asking exactly what they can from him, and some other teams that have a great coach but don't use him to the best of his abilities. tl;dr: The coaching position is hard to understand/analyze.
player and coach requires a different skill set I agree, but someone who has no experience in this game has no right to be a coach on a top team. the only thing I can see him doing is watching demos and analyzing plays and what should be done in certain situations but then anyone with a brain can do that.
a coach should have actual top lvl playing experience so that they can bring realistic and credible feedback for the igl and the team when things aren't going the there at they should. someone who's only experience with this game is watching demos isnt going to be able to contribute much imo
regardless it's hard to say what he does and how he affects the team so we can't do much but speculate. ideally you want someone like seangares or steel or dazed as a coach. basically you want players that have been there done that and are experienced in igling for top teams.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
This is why the west is still behind.
Koreans have long realized that coaching and experience as a top level player are two completely different things and that you don't need to be a pro player to know how to coach or analyze. You would think people on a BW/SC2 forum would know this by now.
Hell most top level players, especially in North America, have no idea what the hell they're talking about. Maybe if they realized how bad they actually were they'd be able change their mindset and put up significant results at majors.
But alas, we Invite, we smart.
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EPT
