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On March 26 2014 07:26 Shiverwarp wrote: I was going to post this in the Tournament/LR thread, but I think it fits better here.
Does anyone have some playlists or Twitch vods for some more Melee tournaments? The only recent one I've watched was the Next Episode that was on because of the TL Calendar, and craving more.
Any suggestions to sate me until the next live tournament?
The main thing to do about VoDs is just go to any major smash streamer and go through their VoDs. In the titles of most tournament streams, they'll post who went to the tournament. If you're looking for certain matchups or players use VGBC's /Clash Tournaments youtube channel and the search function and you'll easily be able to study any player considering the availability the recent streamers have been making them.
On the topic of the top 5 DrPP has actually been playing really badly against Hungrybox pre Apex (and a minor tournament before that in 2013) see Big House 3 for one example. It's hard to say since Mango and Armada are both making their comebacks and DrPP hasn't been seen at enough majors for people to say he's consistent (much like Leffen getting top 4 at Apex, just because you do well in one tournament doesn't speak for how well you'll do at the rest of them).
The reason why DrPP/Armada/Mango are a huge tossup is because they rarely go to minor tournaments anymore compared to M2K and Hungrybox have become the norm in getting top 1/2 in the tournaments that they go to with M2K normally taking the tournaments. So honestly I don't think people should be making speculations on who is the top (yes I'm a hypocrite since I posted my personal list but it's not concrete) player right now as there isn't that much to talk about outside of Apex and it would be best left for the MLG and pre EVO events to come.
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United States10328 Posts
Twitch:
You can look at the following twitch channels' archives (I know I'm missing a ton, but... oh well)
vgbootcamp (GIMR travels around all over the USA/Canada and broadcasts for lots of large tournaments, including NSA2 this coming weekend, which I'll be attending ) clashtournaments (mostly based in NY I think, but has some national tournaments too) meleeitonme (has lots of talk-show style things featuring top players) smashstudios (Georgia) ceogaming (Florida) saltyplayground (Europe) leveluplive (Southern California) nemelee (New England) abcoolr (Bahamas) (I haven't actually seen any of these, but I noticed he has lots of videos) zodiacsmash (might have to look carefully through past broadcasts, since this guy also does lots of speedruns)
Players: KageTheWarrior, MacDSmash, LiquidKen, PikaChad, and IrregularJinny stream somewhat often
You can also check out live melee streams for whatever's live
Youtube: In addition to some of the big Twitch streams (which have the same username), there are: MeleePacWest, TeamSpooky, azprojectmelee, etc. You can probably also google the tournaments that are listed in the posts here (recent tournaments) and here (historical large tournaments).
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Chillin is on Twitch and Youtube as chillindude2. His stuff is fantastic. The last few days he's done Ironmans with Chu and Azen, and gone through Mango v Dr. PeePee at Apex and done frame-by-frame analysis.
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On March 26 2014 01:19 teeeckskay wrote:for anyone wondering, these are the set counts (in tournament) between the American top 4 players since 2012. it doesn't give a chronology, really, but it's still all recent enough to draw some broad conclusions from: Mango vs PP: 5-4 Mango vs M2K: 8-9 Mango vs Hbox: 11-2 PP vs Mango: 4-5 PP vs M2K: 8-4 PP vs Hbox: 5-3 M2K vs Mango: 9-8 M2K vs PP: 4-8 M2K vs Hbox: 7-3 Hbox vs Mango: 2-11 Hbox vs PP: 3-5 Hbox vs M2K: 3-7 Mango vs other three: 24-15 M2K vs other three: 20-19 PP vs other three: 17-12 Hbox vs other three: 8-23 http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s0t15g
Wow thank you so much for this. So interesting to see the full counts. Hbox is probably the one who loses to randoms the least but definitely loses to the other top players the most.
I think right now,
1) Mango 2) Dr PP 3) m2k 4) Armada 5) Hbox 6) Leffen
But I'm a Mango fanboy and you never really know what you're gonna get with him lol
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Is there a list of the best players for each character?
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Hyrule18821 Posts
Odds are pretty good it's Mew2king
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When you're L-canceling, do you press L right after the move or right before you land?
Also, what's the best way to consistently short hop and wave dash? Right now I'm doing X+R for the wave dash but I can't get the timing down. For the short hop I'm flicking the control stick...is this the right way to do it?
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On March 26 2014 13:15 NapkinBox wrote: Is there a list of the best players for each character?
This is a super common thread everywhere but what the hell let's do it again here on TL. These are modern (maybe up to around 2012 for some of the older ones) players that you should look for VODs for:
Fox: Mango, Mew2King, Leffen, Colbol, Lucky, Unknown522, Fiction, Hax, Silent Wolf, Lovage, Zoler , Javi Falco: Mango, Dr. PP, Westballz, StricNYN3/Stric9, Zhu, Th0rn Marth: Mew2King, Dr. PP, PewpewU, The Moon, Ice Sheik: Mew2King, Kirbykaze, Ice, Amsah Peach: Armada, MacD, Vwins, Bladewise Puff: Hungrybox, Darc, s0ft, Mango Falcon: Hax, S2J, Gahtzu, Lord, Scar, Gucci, Jeapie SilentSpectre, Darkrain ---- Ice Climbers: Wobbles, Fly Amanita, Chudat, Nintendude Dr. Mario: Shroomed Pikachu: Axe Samus: Plup, HugS, Darrell Ganondorf: Kage Luigi: Abate, Vudujin, Eddy Mexico, Blea Gelo Mario: Mango, A Rookie Yoshi: aMSa, V3ctorman, Leffen (dunno if there are many vids of this) ---- The other characters don't really matter because nobody places high with them but some of note I guess if you're into that low tier life:
Young Link - Armada Ness - Hungrybox, Mofo Link - Sixx, J666 Zelda - Cosmo Mewtwo - Taj, Mew2King Bowser - DJ Nintendo
The others don't really have any notable mains who are actually good, and someone like M2K could probably use them and do better than the best true main. Someone correct me if I'm wrong~
On March 26 2014 14:13 imBLIND wrote: When you're L-canceling, do you press L right after the move or right before you land?
Also, what's the best way to consistently short hop and wave dash? Right now I'm doing X+R for the wave dash but I can't get the timing down. For the short hop I'm flicking the control stick...is this the right way to do it?
right before you land, since when you do the move is dependent on what you're trying to do (shield pressure vs. catching OOS options, for example)
short hop (and all jumps in general) should be with x/y. you can do it with control stick but that is generally agreed upon to be a terrible idea. X+R for wavedash is fine (it's what i do) but if you're playing Fox a lot of people find it easier to do his techs with Y jump so you may want to get used to that before you develop habits for X
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For Luigi Vist has quite a lot of Luigi videos since he frequents Xanadu and I've learned a lot from him. Axe is also another really good Young Link player
Low tiers not listed by KyuuKyuu
Roy: Sethlon and M2K Game and Watch: Qerb Donkey Kong: Green Ranger Pichu: Liquid'KDJ/M2K/Unknown Kirby - Triple R
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Chu's Kirby is legit too. And Chillin, while not a great Fox player relative to M2K or Mango or whoever, streams a lot and has a YouTube, seems to do a lot of analysis and is better than you.
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I read on the smashforums that rolling out of shield is a bad habit noobies have (me included) because it's easy to predict and punish. I tried not to roll yesterday night when I played with a few friends (I play cpt falcon and this roll discussion was brought up with falcon in mind) but I felt that I have a hard time escaping shield pressure and whatnot without rolling.
So what tips do you have to get out of this rolling habit? I guess I can jump out of shield but I'm such a baddie that it doesn't come naturally (yet).
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I was watching m2k play peach at some tournament recently, and in the few matches he played he looked better then pretty much every peach I've seen not named armada. Thats probably true though of every character
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On March 26 2014 18:16 TOCHMY wrote: I read on the smashforums that rolling out of shield is a bad habit noobies have (me included) because it's easy to predict and punish. I tried not to roll yesterday night when I played with a few friends (I play cpt falcon and this roll discussion was brought up with falcon in mind) but I felt that I have a hard time escaping shield pressure and whatnot without rolling.
So what tips do you have to get out of this rolling habit? I guess I can jump out of shield but I'm such a baddie that it doesn't come naturally (yet).
It depends on your characters
Some characters like fox have a million OOS option WD, SH (any aerial), shine (lol), grab, FH aerials
Even without fastfalling, with a character like shiek you have nair out of shield, all WD tilts, grabs
Some characters have terrible OOS options, usually low tiers lol
In order of how you learn - first you learn to shield-grab. Then generally most people learn to jump OOS (though it's not that strong) - and then generally after a few months the practicse starts to kick in and you can start doing things like shffling out of shield and doing instant-aerials (nair OOS). this usually comes around the same time as being able to feel good about WDing OOS to space (especially against smash attacks)
And then when you get even better, you realise that OOS options still kinda suck (especially shiek vs fox) and you're better off not being in a position where you have to shield in the first place
And then you get EVEN better, and learn that god damned isai angle or w/e it is to shielddrop instantly on command and then suddenly shielding on platforms becomes really good because you can instant counter with any aerial lol
edit: ok OOS options don't suck, it's more like that shielding in shiek vs fox is just a terrible idea once you start playing vs people who know how to pressure shields and you realise that their entire gameplan is to get you to shield in the first place because from there pretty much everything they do is a win
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On March 26 2014 18:16 TOCHMY wrote: I read on the smashforums that rolling out of shield is a bad habit noobies have (me included) because it's easy to predict and punish. I tried not to roll yesterday night when I played with a few friends (I play cpt falcon and this roll discussion was brought up with falcon in mind) but I felt that I have a hard time escaping shield pressure and whatnot without rolling.
So what tips do you have to get out of this rolling habit? I guess I can jump out of shield but I'm such a baddie that it doesn't come naturally (yet).
Against crappy shield pressure (pretty much anyone who doesn't make it out of pools, depending on your scene) you can just shieldgrab it lol but it's not the best habit to get into. Learn to jump out of shield because jumping frees up all your other options - you can SH aerial, insta-rising-aerial (Sheik, Falcon), up smash, up B, shine, and wavedash out of shield all because of jumping.
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^ that being said, depending on the type of pressure, rolling might be your best/only option. so if you find yourself in a longer block-string eating away at your shield that you're not sure you can challenge with "good" out-of-shield options, just hold the C-Stick left/right to buffer Roll as soon as there's a gap in shieldstun.
also, probably the most important aspect of dealing with shield pressure is acting as soon as you're out of shieldstun, which is something a lot of players are bad at. so practice practice practice, because a pretty common good-player playstyle is to just bully or bait you into shield and then punish you.
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I know getting out of the habit of rolling is a high priority for new players, but honestly if your friends don't know how to space/punish rolls then just keep rolling until you can wd oos consistently, then replace most of your rolls with wd oos since it's often a better option against decent players and up. Attacks oos or even jump oos are often more punishable than a wd back oos at most spacings. That said rolls are not inherently bad, everyone use them, I roll to reset neutral position and need to turn around but is too close to dash dance safely.
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yea, i wouldn't say go crazy about eliminating rolls after block. but rolling in neutral is a really awful habit that most new-ish players have, and i think it's probably worth it to totally weed that out of your game (even if they go unpunished) until you reach a certain level and can start thinking about reincorporating it.
the situations in high level play where you want to roll and you're not being hammered with blockstring are extremely rare, and most of the time there will be other (usually movement) ways to accomplish what you want. and it's better to learn those things and depend on those things in general, saving rolling for the rare emergency or genius uses as they crop up. being too light to roll gives your opponent the ability to bait it out of you, and rolling is one of the most punishable things you can do.
but otherwise, i agree with Count9 re: replacing roll oos with WD oos when you can and not being overzealous about trying not to roll after blocking an attack. though, definitely experiment with other oos options, like aerials and grabbing also, because those are direct punishes, and it's handy to be able to recognize situations where you can get them—which comes from experimenting.
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why aren't people playing the lastest smash bros game?
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On March 27 2014 09:40 DW-Unrec wrote: why aren't people playing the lastest smash bros game?
You could refer to the opinions that I posted in the thread that I started if you wish, but the TLDR is
The games are too different with SSBB being a slower game and removing a lot of mechanics that were in SSBM that people loved, as in all of the advanced techniques. SSBB is more campy and slow and has random tripping as well.
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