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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 23 2015 20:11 Teoita wrote:
To a certain extent yes, and mages for example do this perfectly; you can go frost and be super versatile while really not having any true "strength", fire for aoe, or arcane for single target. The last two also more or less want the same gear so that's a plus.
Warlocks at the highest level during HM needed to literally respec during raids to play optimally, which imo is going too far. Swapping between 2 specs is fine (and every pure dps more or less does it), between 3 is too much.
Clearly pures should just have 2 PVE specs and 1 PVP spec and go like that
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Italy12248 Posts
Two specialized specs and one versatile spec (for PvE) works better i think. The "PvP" spec can be any one of those.
Again, Frost works extremely well both as a PvP and versatile PvE spec.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On February 23 2015 20:11 Teoita wrote:
To a certain extent yes, and mages for example do this perfectly; you can go frost and be super versatile while really not having any true "strength", fire for aoe, or arcane for single target. The last two also more or less want the same gear so that's a plus.
Warlocks at the highest level during HM needed to literally respec during raids to play optimally, which imo is going too far. Swapping between 2 specs is fine (and every pure dps more or less does it), between 3 is too much.
Reason also Blizzard needs to give us a 3rd spec imo too. People in borderline gear for mages can do 10k more dps as frost to arcane if they are not used to the playstyle. But Arcane is a must to learn for fights like Gruul or Beast lord. But you don't want to keep having to hearthstone and respec specialization etc. I want 3 talent specs!
Plus with the way tier gear is now, the true hybrid specs of Pala/Druid Priest and Warrior to a certain aspect would love to have a full tier set of all 3 without having to hearthstone and pay 90g to re specialize.
SO GIEF 3RD TALENT SPECIALIZATION!
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Italy12248 Posts
If people do 10k more dps on single target as frost than as arcane it's because they suck balls at arcane (i should know, one mage in my guild does just that lol), not because of gear. With the exception of fire single target and 4set, the relative strength of the 3 mage specs actually hardly changes as item level increases. This has been true since the last round of hotfixes, which were during HM progression so none really bothered to respec then:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6QjkmSp.png)
Also how is Arcane a must for Gruul or Beastlord (which are completely different fights)? Im not sure on a 3rd talent spec though, realistically only pures would use it and tbh the idea of having one versatile spec and two specialized specs sounds better design to me.
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On February 23 2015 20:02 Duvon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2015 17:47 Teoita wrote:Unfortunately it's so fight dependant that you end up having to play 3 specs to perform optimally which is just silly even for a pure dps class. Isn't this good? Some sort of balance between all the specs?
If there's a tri spec implemented sure, before then fuck no spending all that time and gold between bosses is fucked, also on the topic of demonbolt being nerfed I still can't think of a justification. If cataclysm/demonbolt was baseline then yeh I could see there point of view, as is the different lvl 100 talents wildly swing between decent st dps to decent aoe dps. Just seems nuts to nerf one and not the other if they really think ones a problem.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 23 2015 21:28 Teoita wrote:If people do 10k more dps on single target as frost than as arcane it's because they suck balls at arcane (i should know, one mage in my guild does just that lol), not because of gear. With the exception of fire single target and 4set, the relative strength of the 3 mage specs actually hardly changes as item level increases. This has been true since the last round of hotfixes, which were during HM progression so none really bothered to respec then: Also how is Arcane a must for Gruul or Beastlord (which are completely different fights)? Im not sure on a 3rd talent spec though, realistically only pures would use it and tbh the idea of having one versatile spec and two specialized specs sounds better design to me.
As a disc priest who can't get into groups because 2 discs are the devil's play thing I'd really enjoy 3 specs
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When we downed beastlord we found the first few attempts we way overdid with aoe damage, cataclysm locks, boomkins, fire mages, arms warriors etc. In reality only a couple of them is needed at most, burning down the boss asap is way better.
This is on mythic btw
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Italy12248 Posts
Realistically though people are more likely to ask you to go Holy than Shadow. I mean i wouldn't complain about having a 3rd spec, i just don't think it's -that- important in most cases, and in the others they could design things better (like disc not being so reliant on pw:s).
When we downed beastlord we found the first few attempts we way overdid with aoe damage, cataclysm locks, boomkins, fire mages, arms warriors etc. In reality only a couple of them is needed at most, burning down the boss asap is way better.
Yeah i can see that. It really depends on your raid comp though, so i still wouldn't call arcane mandatory for Beastlord.
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Holy with the 4 set isn't too bad, it's not a disc priest but our priest still pulls out 45-50k hps in 675 with pretty good cds
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Italy12248 Posts
Yeah our priest changes between holy and disc depending on fight/raid comp and does just fine with both
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Yeah but that has its own issues with taking forever to do solo content (Although if the holy buffs are good enough I may deal with the Holy dps)
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Why can't Frost DKs be good? I get that the spec has been massively oversimplified to the point where it's essentially 2 buttons, but huge burst and BIG NUMBERS are so much fun to play with. Unholy is much less satisfying, though more involved.
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On February 23 2015 16:05 ViperPL wrote:Oh man, combat is such a stupid spec. My ilvl for combat is 666  (however not all the pieces have good secondary stats, and I have no set bonuses, but I got 685+680 weapons), which is on average 12-14 lower than other dpsers in my guild, yet on Iron Maiden hc I'm easily 2nd on dps with 70% of my dmg being passive (auto attack + instant poison + blade flurry). I guess I should be happy that only 4 fights in BRF really require combat due to aoe.
I agree with this. I can pull 1st or 2nd damage on Darmac and Thogar (Haven't done maidens or blast furnace yet) with combat just because of my passive damage. Only 662 in combat with good secondary stats though, 23% haste unbuffed woo. I usually am behind a DK in our group who has 680ilevel but that isn't anything to be ashamed of.
On other fights though I run assa and am middle of the pack. Depending on the fight I can run from 21k (oregorger) to 28k (hanz/franz and flamebender).
Still a little disappointed that all of the rogue changes are in 4 or 5 lines of this patch =/.
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This seems like a somewhat appropriate thread to ask about something that has been bothering me for a while. I have raided from t1 up to t11 with no breaks. Then I did some on and off raiding through cata and skipped mop entirely. In WoD, what I am noticing is that the bosses feel way more fucking complicated than they used to. I'm sure to some degree, they are more complicated, but the mechanics seem like overkill to me. I went 6/7 normal and 6/7 heroic highmaul without ever defeating imperator because after reading guides and watching videos, the fight seemed like such an un-fun pain in the dick that I could not bring myself to even want to do it. I've found the same problem with BRF already. Gruul was a manageable and fun fight that punishes mistakes but really only has a couple of gimmicks. Now, when I got to oregorger that same opening night, my enthusiasm went into the toilet. The same old tank swap bullshit with a bunch of mechanics that (in my opinion) make the fight terribly boring. I applaud blizzard for new mechanics. Don't get me wrong. I like variety and such, but the fights are getting to the point that you could probably put in the same amount of time and get a college degree ffs. Is anyone else noticing this creep toward overly complicated fights or just flat out not fun mechanics? Or am I just not the raider I used to be? Inb4 you're just bad and don't raid anymore fgt. I'm looking for people to think about how raid tiers and mechanics have evolved over their WoW "careers".
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Italy12248 Posts
Fights are definitely more complicated, but that's fine. People over the years have gotten better, the game has evolved, it's normal that things become more complex as the game goes on. If Molten Core was released today it would be boring beyond reason.
Using Gruul as an example - yeah it's an ok fight, but mechanics wise there really isn't much happening at all. If you get petrify you move out of your group, otherwise you just nuke him. Don't stand in the bad. Tanks switch on x and turn him around towards whatever group doesn't have stacks of the debuff. An entire raid with mechanics that simple would get pretty old pretty quickly imo.
It's likely that you are just burnt out on the game. I felt exactly the same during t11 and ended up quitting shortly after, but i've really been enjoying raiding again in the past year or so.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
The issue is that most of these mechanics that make fights "complicated" really aren't. I mean imperator is stupidly simple (that said I didn't do mythic imp) since there wasn't anything to that fight other than 10 minutes of pure boredom and it is the same with a lot of BRF fights the train boss seemed really fun and interesting at first but having done it 8 times now its just become a tank and spank and the trains are an annoyance rather than fun meanwhile Kromog is considered a tank / spank but is one of the funner fights without having any gimmicks
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most of the fights are deceptively complicated like Drazerk said. There are many different mechanics going on but generally speaking, they don't effect everyone. If you're ranged you have different issues than melee, if you're a tank you have different issues than healing. If you use any of the wide array of boss mods, and focus only on the things that effect you, you can reduce the complexity quite a lot. Find how to avoid X, pay attention to X, and win the game. ;D
This is purely speaking about clearing content at a normal or slightly advanced progression. This isn't about coming up with strategy for cutting edge content and world/region/realm firsts.
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As mentioned, as the wow player base collectively gets stronger and better at the game then you will have to come up with more complex mechanics/fights to entertain them.
As a raid leader there is a lot to tell everyone, but overall it is not extroadinarily hard since there is so much information out there.
On Oregorger for example I have ran pug's where we assign interrupt cycles, explain to tanks what to do for acid torrent, tell ranged to follow the icon for stack and in phase 2 to not get rolled over in any way. I have killed Oregorger with that 2 minute explanation. Its very basic and gets the important pieces of the fight across without explaining what each skill does specifically.
I think that you are just getting burned out for teaching people that they have to do more than kill a boss and move out of one or two things. Just take some time and relax. You also could be stressing out over non raiding things (are the people you raid with still fun to raid with? This can change over time).
Imperator as Drazerk said is a pretty boring fight for me (I have not done mythic either, but it seems to be more of the same for the first 2/3rd of the fight in mythic). I spend most of the fight dpsing Imp in melee, killing apperations, and killing the adds in the intermissions. Outside of that I just mitigate any other damage I can in the later phases to help our healers out. While the first part of learning the fight had a lot to do until I got it down, its now a 10-11 minute fight that I do the same thing every time.
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Haven't raided since Wrath, but I sincerely doubt that mechanics have gotten more complex than Kael'thas (or in its own way, Vashj). Maybe they have, but then other parts of the fight have been tuned down (Kael'thas was, in addition to being stupidly complex, quite a bit of a gear check). Simply judging by the speed that people charge through the instances now in comparison to back then. Mythic clears within the first reset are pretty stupidly fast. Remember that Kil'jaeden and original Naxxramas weren't ever on farm except to the really really really elite guilds at the time, and they had spent months progressing there.
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EPT
14 guilds now 9/10
