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On December 30 2014 22:39 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 18:29 Squat wrote:
I may be a masochist, but I liked vanilla naxxramas a lot. Man, I must have wiped 50+ times per night there. We basically rotated between Naxx and selling MC/BWL boosts so we could afford pots and repairs.
For design, I don't think anything beats Kara. Really sad they don't make places like that anymore, or dungeons like BRD. Brd was top big. You'd have to spend a whole afternoon tot finish it and most of the time people just legt the group.
It was never intended to be pugged by people with less than thirty minutes to play. It was meant to be an actual dungeon crawler experience. I really wish we could get one of these each expansion, as a stand-alone feature outside the LFG queue.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On December 30 2014 23:04 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 22:49 Drazerk wrote:On December 30 2014 22:39 RvB wrote:On December 30 2014 18:29 Squat wrote:
I may be a masochist, but I liked vanilla naxxramas a lot. Man, I must have wiped 50+ times per night there. We basically rotated between Naxx and selling MC/BWL boosts so we could afford pots and repairs.
For design, I don't think anything beats Kara. Really sad they don't make places like that anymore, or dungeons like BRD. Brd was top big. You'd have to spend a whole afternoon tot finish it and most of the time people just legt the group. Old BRS was pretty good as a dungeon length. Not too short like all the cata / mop / wod dungeons but not too long like BRD / sunken temple. I honestly feel like I completed more BRD runs than I ever did trying to do heroic shadow labs / shattered halls / arcatraz (Although that might just be Kara attunement haunting me) But who actually cleared all of BRD in one run? It was just one mega dungeon and without the LFG-finder it wasn't necessary to beat the "endboss" to "finish" it. You had to leave the zone like 5 times and come back again to finish the onyxia quest... The same for strat, you either went baron or bastion. I really liked BRD, you would always find something new because it was just so huge and had so many shortcuts. For example you could jump down into the lava after the fire elemental boss and skip right to the room with the 7 guys or get to the MC entrance. That said, if they made something like it today they would split them up and make walls, so effectively it would still be seperate dungeons. Like Dire Maul. Dire Maul could have been the same as BRD, having them all connected but for some reason they didn't.
I think it was something in the BC dev notes they stated how much they liked the concept of Scarlet monastery / Dire maul wings which is why burning crusade / wotlk was literally just separate wings of the same dungeon
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While it is sort of a joke to point to clearly annoying vanilla mechanics and say "Nostalgia," I think BRD is a good example of how a lot of old timey, ostensibly annoying things from the older iterations of WoW made gameplay decisions feel more valuable, as the opportunity costs associated with doing simple things like running a dungeon used to be so much higher. So yeah, rose colored glasses aside, there is something to be said for how flawed and clumsy vanilla game design can seem appealing through a backward glance.
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On December 30 2014 23:04 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 22:39 RvB wrote:On December 30 2014 18:29 Squat wrote:
I may be a masochist, but I liked vanilla naxxramas a lot. Man, I must have wiped 50+ times per night there. We basically rotated between Naxx and selling MC/BWL boosts so we could afford pots and repairs.
For design, I don't think anything beats Kara. Really sad they don't make places like that anymore, or dungeons like BRD. Brd was top big. You'd have to spend a whole afternoon tot finish it and most of the time people just legt the group. It was never intended to be pugged by people with less than thirty minutes to play. It was meant to be an actual dungeon crawler experience. I really wish we could get one of these each expansion, as a stand-alone feature outside the LFG queue.
There's a difference between 30 minutes and literially hours. Not to mention with wipes you'd have to clear the trash that had respawned....
On December 30 2014 23:11 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 23:04 Warri wrote:On December 30 2014 22:49 Drazerk wrote:On December 30 2014 22:39 RvB wrote:On December 30 2014 18:29 Squat wrote:
I may be a masochist, but I liked vanilla naxxramas a lot. Man, I must have wiped 50+ times per night there. We basically rotated between Naxx and selling MC/BWL boosts so we could afford pots and repairs.
For design, I don't think anything beats Kara. Really sad they don't make places like that anymore, or dungeons like BRD. Brd was top big. You'd have to spend a whole afternoon tot finish it and most of the time people just legt the group. Old BRS was pretty good as a dungeon length. Not too short like all the cata / mop / wod dungeons but not too long like BRD / sunken temple. I honestly feel like I completed more BRD runs than I ever did trying to do heroic shadow labs / shattered halls / arcatraz (Although that might just be Kara attunement haunting me) But who actually cleared all of BRD in one run? It was just one mega dungeon and without the LFG-finder it wasn't necessary to beat the "endboss" to "finish" it. You had to leave the zone like 5 times and come back again to finish the onyxia quest... The same for strat, you either went baron or bastion. I really liked BRD, you would always find something new because it was just so huge and had so many shortcuts. For example you could jump down into the lava after the fire elemental boss and skip right to the room with the 7 guys or get to the MC entrance. That said, if they made something like it today they would split them up and make walls, so effectively it would still be seperate dungeons. Like Dire Maul. Dire Maul could have been the same as BRD, having them all connected but for some reason they didn't. I think it was something in the BC dev notes they stated how much they liked the concept of Scarlet monastery / Dire maul wings which is why burning crusade / wotlk was literally just separate wings of the same dungeon
I liked SM a lot but I think part of it is that it was a nice change of pace from the longer dungeons.
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On the topic of long vanilla dungeons, I will say that Blizzard did an excellent job of condensing the "feeling' of running a long dungeon into a digestible 30 minute experience in Wrath. Sure, they were short, but they simply had less buildup to their respective climaxes. You can't really say that Halls of Lightning, Pit of Saron, Forge of Souls, or Halls of Reflection were poorly designed; on the contrary, they each had interesting mechanics (enough to be challenging for undergeared pugs). In fact, most of the dungeons in Wrath had long, satisfying quest chains attached to them. Design-wise, the buildup of vanilla dungeons was simply displaced and relegated to these quest chains instead of the dungeons themselves. Prime example being the Storm Peaks quest chain leading to Halls of Lightning.
So you see, it's not so much that the "feeling" of running a long dungeon (like BRD) has been necessarily lost, rather the components of a dungeon crawl (much like the components of a good story) have been compartmentalized to different areas of the game, chopped into individually digestible pieces. It's like cutting your steak instead of eating the entire thing whole. This is the entire concept of winged dungeons.
I played Vanilla WoW when it came out, and more recently on a private server, and also played through Wrath, so I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about.
Edit: See also Magister's Terrace in BC.
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The dungeons/raids of olde were much more memorable and entertaining for me. Spending hours trawling through an actual dungeon full of enemies for the eventual rewards was amazing. They all had their own atmosphere and personalities if you will.
Nowadays dungeons and raids are just boss gauntlets with no soul. Just look at everyones favorite raids and dungeons, none of them are post-wotlk.
Its a shame that the experience and enjoyment of the game has taken a backseat to the gratification of getting gear and upgrades. Both are fun sure, but one is most definitely more memorable than the other.
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Italy12246 Posts
Some dungeons of old weren't that good tbh. Magtheridon's lair was meh, Mount Hyjal was pretty bad, t7 raid overall weren't great, and of course there's Trial of the Crusader which should just never have happened.
It's just that looking back we tend to remember the good ones and forget the bad ones.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On December 31 2014 01:10 Teoita wrote:
Some dungeons of old weren't that good tbh. Magtheridon's lair was meh, Mount Hyjal was pretty bad, t7 raid overall weren't great, and of course there's Trial of the Crusader which should just never have happened.
It's just that looking back we tend to remember the good ones and forget the bad ones.
Mag's lair was actually really enjoyable coming straight out of Karazhan it was a simple fight but still hard enough to feel like the first big threat in 25 man raiding.
Hyjal was enjoyable once. Only once and never again.
T7 had Sarth 3D and Malygos which were really cool fights (Screw naxx though)
TOGC was enjoyable it just got repetitive with how long the patch was (Similar to dragon soul)
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Netherlands45349 Posts
CoP dotweaving is hate love relationship, you mess up quite easily since there are so many fights where you have to move but is quite fun of a rotation compared to other classes.
We fucking suck on cleave/multitarget though, our dots hit like wet noodles.
As for old raids, I wager that a lot of the content and ideas up to WOTLK were already thought out, they killed off a lot of cool characters from the Warcraft Universe and those raids felt more epic to me because I could relate to them. The exception is Ulduar. MoP/Cata just had incredibly shitty world building compared to WOTLK or TBC which is odd since Cata is supposed to be the expansion where Deathwing literally shatters the world.
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Cata was ruined when they decided to destroy barrens chat. 9 million nerds all screamed Nooooooooo in unison.
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On December 30 2014 23:28 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 23:04 Squat wrote:On December 30 2014 22:39 RvB wrote:On December 30 2014 18:29 Squat wrote:
I may be a masochist, but I liked vanilla naxxramas a lot. Man, I must have wiped 50+ times per night there. We basically rotated between Naxx and selling MC/BWL boosts so we could afford pots and repairs.
For design, I don't think anything beats Kara. Really sad they don't make places like that anymore, or dungeons like BRD. Brd was top big. You'd have to spend a whole afternoon tot finish it and most of the time people just legt the group. It was never intended to be pugged by people with less than thirty minutes to play. It was meant to be an actual dungeon crawler experience. I really wish we could get one of these each expansion, as a stand-alone feature outside the LFG queue. There's a difference between 30 minutes and literially hours. Not to mention with wipes you'd have to clear the trash that had respawned.... Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 23:11 Drazerk wrote:On December 30 2014 23:04 Warri wrote:On December 30 2014 22:49 Drazerk wrote:On December 30 2014 22:39 RvB wrote:On December 30 2014 18:29 Squat wrote:
I may be a masochist, but I liked vanilla naxxramas a lot. Man, I must have wiped 50+ times per night there. We basically rotated between Naxx and selling MC/BWL boosts so we could afford pots and repairs.
For design, I don't think anything beats Kara. Really sad they don't make places like that anymore, or dungeons like BRD. Brd was top big. You'd have to spend a whole afternoon tot finish it and most of the time people just legt the group. Old BRS was pretty good as a dungeon length. Not too short like all the cata / mop / wod dungeons but not too long like BRD / sunken temple. I honestly feel like I completed more BRD runs than I ever did trying to do heroic shadow labs / shattered halls / arcatraz (Although that might just be Kara attunement haunting me) But who actually cleared all of BRD in one run? It was just one mega dungeon and without the LFG-finder it wasn't necessary to beat the "endboss" to "finish" it. You had to leave the zone like 5 times and come back again to finish the onyxia quest... The same for strat, you either went baron or bastion. I really liked BRD, you would always find something new because it was just so huge and had so many shortcuts. For example you could jump down into the lava after the fire elemental boss and skip right to the room with the 7 guys or get to the MC entrance. That said, if they made something like it today they would split them up and make walls, so effectively it would still be seperate dungeons. Like Dire Maul. Dire Maul could have been the same as BRD, having them all connected but for some reason they didn't. I think it was something in the BC dev notes they stated how much they liked the concept of Scarlet monastery / Dire maul wings which is why burning crusade / wotlk was literally just separate wings of the same dungeon I liked SM a lot but I think part of it is that it was a nice change of pace from the longer dungeons.
No one is asking for a BRD reboot. I want a similar experience in a WoD setting. Saying BRD-esque dungeons would never work because BRD had problems is just untrue, if anything they would be far easier to make with a more developed game and a wealth of design experience.
If it turns out to take hours to complete, so be it. There is a simple solution to that for those pressed for time; don't run it.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On December 31 2014 01:18 Kipsate wrote:
CoP dotweaving is hate love relationship, you mess up quite easily since there are so many fights where you have to move but is quite fun of a rotation compared to other classes.
We fucking suck on cleave/multitarget though, our dots hit like wet noodles.
I have a friend who just pretty much refuses to attack other targets because its just a dps loss for him. Need a buff to halo / cascade / divine star to kinda make aoe worth while again I think.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
So you are going to create content that a very large potion of the WoW population will not run? Namely 2/3h with a pug?
I have seen that before.
On December 31 2014 01:48 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2014 01:18 Kipsate wrote:
CoP dotweaving is hate love relationship, you mess up quite easily since there are so many fights where you have to move but is quite fun of a rotation compared to other classes.
We fucking suck on cleave/multitarget though, our dots hit like wet noodles.
I have a friend who just pretty much refuses to attack other targets because its just a dps loss for him. Need a buff to halo / cascade / divine star to kinda make aoe worth while again I think.
We are excellent on singletarget no movement fights
that limits us to Butcher and perhaps kargath, for the rest we are middle of the pack usually. We need some buffs to cleave or aoe, I would be fine with doing good singletarget damage if I could do it on the move as well, I can't.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On December 31 2014 01:48 Kipsate wrote:So you are going to create content that a very large potion of the WoW population will not run? I have seen that before. Show nested quote +On December 31 2014 01:48 Drazerk wrote:On December 31 2014 01:18 Kipsate wrote:
CoP dotweaving is hate love relationship, you mess up quite easily since there are so many fights where you have to move but is quite fun of a rotation compared to other classes.
We fucking suck on cleave/multitarget though, our dots hit like wet noodles.
I have a friend who just pretty much refuses to attack other targets because its just a dps loss for him. Need a buff to halo / cascade / divine star to kinda make aoe worth while again I think. We are excellent on singletarget no movement fights that limits us to Butcher and perhaps kargath, for the rest we are middle of the pack usually. We need some buffs to cleave or aoe, I would be fine with doing good singletarget damage if I could do it on the move as well, I can't.
Koragh can also be pretty kind depending on RNG / what tactic your guild uses. I've only DPS'd in LFR because healers aren't needed (Look at people's health bars on kargath or koragh and notice how little damage is done) so I can't comment on how bad it is on normal+.
Hopefully blackrock foundary is patchwork 11 times in a row
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Oh yeah Korgrah is a pretty decent fight too, the fact that SWD doesnt trigger Shadow Orb or triggers again annoys me to no end though .
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Italy12246 Posts
We live in a really wierd world when mages can do better damage on the move than spriests
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On December 31 2014 01:54 Teoita wrote:
We live in a really wierd world when mages can do better damage on the move than spriests
We live in a weird world where mind flay is useless
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I know I'm a bit late to the party but my favourite raids were (Haven't played Highmaul; didn't play in MoP and in TBC I didn't progress very far compared to Vanilla and Wotlk):
1. Karazhan (not that surpising)
2. Ulduar
3. Zul'Gurub
4. Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj (aq20 was awesome but aq40 was never very appealing to me)
5. Naxxramas (never played Vanilla Naxx)
6. Gruul's Lair
7. Molten Core
8. Zul'Aman
9. Trial of the Crusader (I actually enjoyed this raid a lot. I can see why a lot of people despise it though).
10. Onyxia (Vanilla version)
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So you are going to create content that a very large potion of the WoW population will not run? Namely 2/3h with a pug?
I have seen that before.
With that reasoning we might just as well do away with Mythic altogether, considering how few people run it. Hell, not too many people do HC either. There is nothing wrong with having content outside the coordinates of mainstream gameplay. As long as it's not needed for character progress, why the heck not. I don't give a shit about pet battles, but I recognise the value of the system for those that do.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Except Highmaul has HC, Normal , LFR and Mythic mode, meaning there is content for everyone inherently where everything can view and experience the same thing.
So unless you want raids to become 5 man dungeons its not going to work that way.
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EPT
