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On November 24 2013 06:35 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 06:20 Grumbels wrote:
But not everyone does 25m heroic, 99% of the game is not challenging in any way. Solo and 5m content used to be much more difficult in TBC for instance. I did pre nerf TBC heroic 5 mans. No it wasn't fun. Plus dont forget that any 5man your going to be doing now is a joke. Your not in the quest greens/blues you were supposed to. Heroic 5mans were fine at the start of MoP.
Prenerf TBC 5man heroics were in the time where people didn't have the gear yet, they would have been fine if we had had gear to do them, but heroic Black Morass in questing blues and greens was hard for that specific reason.
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On November 24 2013 13:36 Qaatar wrote:
It's why Method can down new encounters after a few weeks, while back in TBC, guilds were stuck on content for months. Like it or not, it HAS gotten easier overall, but not necessarily because the bosses themselves are easier.
No boss has survived long unless they were bugged or had arbitrary blocks (resist gear for example) so no this isn't true either.
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On November 24 2013 21:41 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 06:35 Gorsameth wrote:On November 24 2013 06:20 Grumbels wrote:
But not everyone does 25m heroic, 99% of the game is not challenging in any way. Solo and 5m content used to be much more difficult in TBC for instance. I did pre nerf TBC heroic 5 mans. No it wasn't fun. Plus dont forget that any 5man your going to be doing now is a joke. Your not in the quest greens/blues you were supposed to. Heroic 5mans were fine at the start of MoP. Prenerf TBC 5man heroics were in the time where people didn't have the gear yet, they would have been fine if we had had gear to do them, but heroic Black Morass in questing blues and greens was hard for that specific reason.
yeah most of the time you had to do PVP to get some good items which was kinda weird..
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On November 24 2013 13:36 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 09:51 Brett wrote:
I found them (tbc heroics that is, particularly shadowlabs, sethek and the TK instances) fun... MoP heroics were a faceroll by comparison with a competent group.
I'm talking at release of course. My point being that it's largely personal preference. It's why Method can down new encounters after a few weeks, while back in TBC, guilds were stuck on content for months. Like it or not, it HAS gotten easier overall, but not necessarily because the bosses themselves are easier.
No, thats not why Method can down new encounters after a few weeks. you have not the slightest of a clue. Several things are the reason:
First and most importantly, there is a long long PATCHREALM phase where guilds like Method practice every time a boss is scheduled, so they get the hang of it.
Second and almost as important: They dont need less time. They just raid 24/7 until that boss is fucking down. Its not bc where "pro" guilds still raided 4 hours maybe not even 7 days a week. They raid 24 fucking 7 and rotate through members for ideal composition, this is somewhat made easier by the fact that you dont have to run to the city to fucking reskill anymore.
Third, there are no arbitrary gearcheck encounters anymore. The ragetimers are tight but not impossible even with previous tier gear. Your healers dont run oom because their gear is ilvl 550 instead of 555 and the dds dont get onehitted because they didnt have time to farm that resistance gear. Bosses have 10 times as many abilities these days as in classic, bc or wotlk. They just dont 100% hit anymore, especially for tanks its about dmg mitigation and healing themselves rather than holding aggro at any cost. So the whole fight is way more about positioning now.
And last but not least, the dungeon design got a whole lot better. Wiped on Cthun? thats 30 minutes of running between two tries for you, bad luck. Wiped on ragnaros? 10 minute running. Wiped on garrosch? Some rogue or hunter probably managed to survive and mass rezzes and if not its only 2 minutes of running anyway. This doesnt make anything easier, its just convenient and reduces the boring time.
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On November 24 2013 23:36 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 13:36 Qaatar wrote:On November 24 2013 09:51 Brett wrote:
I found them (tbc heroics that is, particularly shadowlabs, sethek and the TK instances) fun... MoP heroics were a faceroll by comparison with a competent group.
I'm talking at release of course. My point being that it's largely personal preference. It's why Method can down new encounters after a few weeks, while back in TBC, guilds were stuck on content for months. Like it or not, it HAS gotten easier overall, but not necessarily because the bosses themselves are easier. No, thats not why Method can down new encounters after a few weeks. you have not the slightest of a clue. Several things are the reason: First and most importantly, there is a long long PATCHREALM phase where guilds like Method practice every time a boss is scheduled, so they get the hang of it. Second and almost as important: They dont need less time. They just raid 24/7 until that boss is fucking down. Its not bc where "pro" guilds still raided 4 hours maybe not even 7 days a week. They raid 24 fucking 7 and rotate through members for ideal composition, this is somewhat made easier by the fact that you dont have to run to the city to fucking reskill anymore. Third, there are no arbitrary gearcheck encounters anymore. The ragetimers are tight but not impossible even with previous tier gear. Your healers dont run oom because their gear is ilvl 550 instead of 555 and the dds dont get onehitted because they didnt have time to farm that resistance gear. Bosses have 10 times as many abilities these days as in classic, bc or wotlk. They just dont 100% hit anymore, especially for tanks its about dmg mitigation and healing themselves rather than holding aggro at any cost. So the whole fight is way more about positioning now. And last but not least, the dungeon design got a whole lot better. Wiped on Cthun? thats 30 minutes of running between two tries for you, bad luck. Wiped on ragnaros? 10 minute running. Wiped on garrosch? Some rogue or hunter probably managed to survive and mass rezzes and if not its only 2 minutes of running anyway. This doesnt make anything easier, its just convenient and reduces the boring time.
Saying that I "do not have the slightest of a clue" is rather aggressive, considering that I was giving some of my own perceptions of why people feel the content is easier relative to TBC (note that I ONLY include TBC...TBC is not some code word for older content). Again, maybe I wasn't clear, but I agree that Soo is some of the more challenging content since TBC. You and the other people seem to enjoy quote-mining and harping on maybe the fact that I wrote "it HAS gotten easier"...perhaps I shouldn't have typed that, or made it more clear that it isn't the boss encounters themselves that feed this perception.
Your second and third reasons are valid, but the first is overstating the significance of PTR. The PTR testing saves hours at best; it wouldn't even save a week. This is especially considering that some boss mechanics are things that vet raiders have seen time and time again, but perhaps wrapped in a different skin. If you can't learn something fast enough in a few hours, you probably don't deserve to be in a guild like Method anyways. Yes, there are some encounters that PTR would make more beneficial than others, but it still doesn't make a significant difference.
I agree that arbitrary gearchecks are also a major reason, but I still feel that my own perception, that players have just gotten much more comfortable/better with the gameplay, the ui, etc. is the biggest reason.
Edit: Back in TBC, even I raided like 8 hours a day, 7 days a week in a barely world top 100 guild. People raided just as much back then as they do now. And, perhaps even many more guilds did the same, as there were more hardcore raiders then as well. I felt like practically everyone raided TBC, even some of the old-time pvp players who wouldn't step foot in a dungeon nowadays like Venruki, Azael, Reckful, etc.
Edit 2: I don't want to keep arguing about this, so if you feel that your reasons are more valid than mine, feel free. We don't fundamentally disagree on this issue anyways (at least I don't).
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On November 24 2013 20:26 TS-Rupbar wrote:
I'm thinking about starting to play again on a new server. Is it possible to send heirlooms across realms?
Not at this time. With WoD looms will be come a "collection" like pets/mounts, and will be able to be used on any toon on your account.
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United States24745 Posts
On November 24 2013 20:26 TS-Rupbar wrote:
I'm thinking about starting to play again on a new server. Is it possible to send heirlooms across realms?
No, not normally (and people complain about this a lot). There might be paid server transfer services you can utilize for this purpose...
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On November 25 2013 00:06 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 20:26 TS-Rupbar wrote:
I'm thinking about starting to play again on a new server. Is it possible to send heirlooms across realms? No, not normally (and people complain about this a lot). There might be paid server transfer services you can utilize for this purpose...
With 5.4.2 there probably will be cross realm heirloom mail http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10587459185#1
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Like it or not, it HAS gotten easier overall, but not necessarily because the bosses themselves are easier. Time taken correlates with difficulty but it is not equal to difficulty. There are a myriad of reasons why bosses took way longer in vanilla and TBC but actual encounter difficulty is not one of them - raiding has not gotten easier at all, old raid bosses are a complete and utter joke to the ones we have today.
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On November 25 2013 01:41 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +Like it or not, it HAS gotten easier overall, but not necessarily because the bosses themselves are easier. Time taken correlates with difficulty but it is not equal to difficulty. There are a myriad of reasons why bosses took way longer in vanilla and TBC but actual encounter difficulty is not one of them - raiding has not gotten easier at all, old raid bosses are a complete and utter joke to the ones we have today.
Mmmmmmhhhmmmmmmmm, maybe its because you out level the content by 20-30 levels and have more dps then a 40 man lvl 60 raid. At the time of TBC ~2% of the population had killed ragnaros let alone been in bwl/aq40/naxx. Right now estimates are ~10% have killed garrosh on heoric difficulty. If we adjusted the numbers for raid size/game population then and now id bet money on the fact more people have killed heroic garrosh now then have killed ragnaros.
At 60.
What does that mean? Few things, it could be easier or the reduced raid sizes have opened up raiding to more people. Also people have played this game for years so they are use to the rythme and reason of "dodge spell focus adds dodge spell beat boss before enrage".
Also i can tell you didnt kill rag at 60, the fight was far from a joke. If no one was in melee range rag would wipe the whole raid with a room sized aoe, you had sons of rag you needed to tank/aoe down that spanwed infinitely every minute and a half or so till rag gets to ~15%. It was a death sentence usually just getting more then 3 of those in one boss fiht because mana would be oom. You also had tanks having to switch when one got knocked back so the afore mentioned room aoe wouldnt wipe the raid.
Nor did you raid in tbc mmmm? Tell me kael'thelas/illidan/kiljaden were easy fights for the gear/70 cap. Even today you can still wipe on some of the mechanics just because they do % of life damage instead of static numbers. You can die to archimonde in hyjal because he throws you 50 feet in the air and makes you take 80% of your hp in falling damage.
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Mmmmmmhhhmmmmmmmm, maybe its because you out level the content by 20-30 levels and have more dps then a 40 man lvl 60 raid. At the time of TBC ~2% of the population had killed ragnaros let alone been in bwl/aq40/naxx. Right now estimates are ~10% have killed garrosh on heoric difficulty. If we adjusted the numbers for raid size/game population then and now id bet money on the fact more people have killed heroic garrosh now then have killed ragnaros.
At 60. It is impossible to compare completion rates between now and then. The game is too different.
Also i can tell you didnt kill rag at 60, the fight was far from a joke. If no one was in melee range rag would wipe the whole raid with a room sized aoe, you had sons of rag you needed to tank/aoe down that spanwed infinitely every minute and a half or so till rag gets to ~15%. It was a death sentence usually just getting more then 3 of those in one boss fiht because mana would be oom. You also had tanks having to switch when one got knocked back so the afore mentioned room aoe wouldnt wipe the raid. I'm sorry, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. Those tactics are the pinnacle of Vanilla raiding while they would barely qualify for first boss of the first tier mechanics these days.
Raids would be artificially difficult due to insane gear checks, limited class toolkits, the need to spend tons of time farming consumables, resistance gear, etc.
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On November 25 2013 02:34 Thorakh wrote:
I'm sorry, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. Those tactics are the pinnacle of Vanilla raiding while they would barely qualify for first boss of the first tier mechanics these days.
What ??
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On November 25 2013 01:41 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +Like it or not, it HAS gotten easier overall, but not necessarily because the bosses themselves are easier. Time taken correlates with difficulty but it is not equal to difficulty. There are a myriad of reasons why bosses took way longer in vanilla and TBC but actual encounter difficulty is not one of them - raiding has not gotten easier at all, old raid bosses are a complete and utter joke to the ones we have today.
i beg to differ but raid bosses has gotten WAY easier than they were in vanilla and tbc, even Kungen has said this clearly on his stream.
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On November 25 2013 02:47 Copymizer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 01:41 Thorakh wrote:Like it or not, it HAS gotten easier overall, but not necessarily because the bosses themselves are easier. Time taken correlates with difficulty but it is not equal to difficulty. There are a myriad of reasons why bosses took way longer in vanilla and TBC but actual encounter difficulty is not one of them - raiding has not gotten easier at all, old raid bosses are a complete and utter joke to the ones we have today. i beg to differ but raid bosses has gotten WAY easier than they were in vanilla and tbc, even Kungen has said this clearly on his stream. Kungen is an idiot. I bet you aren't even playing WoW right now, let alone having done any heroic modes the last 2-3 expansions. Or are you talking about LFR (lol)?
What ?? What Vanilla boss comes close to The Stoneguard (the first boss of the first tier of MoP) in terms of tactics? Tell me, please.
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On November 25 2013 02:19 FromShouri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 01:41 Thorakh wrote:Like it or not, it HAS gotten easier overall, but not necessarily because the bosses themselves are easier. Time taken correlates with difficulty but it is not equal to difficulty. There are a myriad of reasons why bosses took way longer in vanilla and TBC but actual encounter difficulty is not one of them - raiding has not gotten easier at all, old raid bosses are a complete and utter joke to the ones we have today. Mmmmmmhhhmmmmmmmm, maybe its because you out level the content by 20-30 levels and have more dps then a 40 man lvl 60 raid. At the time of TBC ~2% of the population had killed ragnaros let alone been in bwl/aq40/naxx. Right now estimates are ~10% have killed garrosh on heoric difficulty. If we adjusted the numbers for raid size/game population then and now id bet money on the fact more people have killed heroic garrosh now then have killed ragnaros. At 60. What does that mean? Few things, it could be easier or the reduced raid sizes have opened up raiding to more people. Also people have played this game for years so they are use to the rythme and reason of "dodge spell focus adds dodge spell beat boss before enrage". Also i can tell you didnt kill rag at 60, the fight was far from a joke. If no one was in melee range rag would wipe the whole raid with a room sized aoe, you had sons of rag you needed to tank/aoe down that spanwed infinitely every minute and a half or so till rag gets to ~15%. It was a death sentence usually just getting more then 3 of those in one boss fiht because mana would be oom. You also had tanks having to switch when one got knocked back so the afore mentioned room aoe wouldnt wipe the raid. Nor did you raid in tbc mmmm? Tell me kael'thelas/illidan/kiljaden were easy fights for the gear/70 cap. Even today you can still wipe on some of the mechanics just because they do % of life damage instead of static numbers. You can die to archimonde in hyjal because he throws you 50 feet in the air and makes you take 80% of your hp in falling damage.
Im sorry but i cant read this with a strait face :D
10% killed HC Garrosh? where the fuck do you get these numbers from?
23343 guilds killed the first boss on normal.
102 killed HC Garrosh. totaly 10%
Kil'jaeden died 4 days after he was reachable. Illidan took 1 day to die between him and the boss before him. Kael'thas took a lot longer but i cant remember if that was because he was bugged or not.
And no-one said Rag was a joke fight in classic but dont pretend like its mechanics are even remotely difficult. Omg he kills you when no one is in melee. Like every single static boss that has ever been released.....
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10% killed HC Garrosh? where the fuck do you get these numbers from? Lmao I didn't even read that sentence. 10%?
H: Garrosh Hellscream 102 (0.43%) <- this percentage is the percentage of total raiding guilds that have killed him
102 raiding guilds in the world have killed hc Garrosh by now. If we split them 10/25 50-50 and assume every 10 man guild has 12 players and every 25 man guild 35 and take 7.6mil as the total population (figures from Q3 this year) we arrive at the conclusion that 0.032% of all players have killed Garrosh on heroic. In what world is that 10%?
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On November 25 2013 02:19 FromShouri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 01:41 Thorakh wrote:
old raid bosses are a complete and utter joke to the ones we have today. maybe its because you out level the content by 20-30 levels and have more dps then a 40 man lvl 60 raid.
I don't think he meant what you think he meant.
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On November 25 2013 02:52 Thorakh wrote:What Vanilla boss comes close to The Stoneguard (the first boss of the first tier of MoP) in terms of tactics? Tell me, please.
do you really think Ragnaros was the pinnacle of vanilla tactics ?
Tell me, please.
I won't compare, say if anything is harder now, easier, or whatever, since i do not play the game from a long long time, and i would only make a silly of me, for deluding myself thinking i have a clue how the high end works now, but it was so blatantly obvious your experience on vanilla was zero with that bit i quoted from you, that neither should you compare them if you don't have a clue about vanilla raiding.
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I was gonna say, I remember first trying The Four Horsemen at the end of vanilla in old Naxx and thinking, "fuck me these guys are never coming down" lol
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On November 25 2013 03:34 farvacola wrote:
I was gonna say, I remember first trying The Four Horsemen at the end of vanilla in old Naxx and thinking, "fuck me these guys are never coming down" lol
And you were almost right 
7 weeks till they went down. One of the hardest encounters.
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EPT
