[wow] Warlords of Draenor - Page 16

On November 14 2013 03:54 Grumbels wrote:

Well, in Starcraft you are an important commander that follows the orders of some lore figures and that accomplishes many things. But I think it would be in bad taste if the story would start to talk about "this amazing commander that should be revered as a hero for accomplishing all those things", since you're just the player and you don't matter. These events don't happen because of you, it's just that the game gives you a chance to participate in them.

On November 14 2013 03:56 micronesia wrote:

Except for in vanilla SC I think the player is not part of the story. In BW they don't refer to the player. In WoW you control an actual character.

On November 14 2013 04:02 Grumbels wrote:

But Illidan is still there waiting for you in Black Temple even if you took him down last week. He dies not because you kill him but because the story progresses and marks him as dead. (e.g. in WotLK where he is considers dead afair)

I mean, you always have to construct a narrative around your own character. If you prefer to think of your character as one of the small group of elite commandos that took down Illidan then more power to you, but I don't think that means that the game should automatically extend this to all player characters, or even to all pc's that participated in an Illidan boss fight. Maybe if you had the legendary item associated with him, but otherwise I don't think so.

On November 14 2013 03:56 micronesia wrote:

Except for in vanilla SC I think the player is not part of the story. In BW they don't refer to the player. In WoW you control an actual character.

On November 14 2013 04:09 FromShouri wrote:


If I remember correctly, you are just some commander in vanilla, in BW they retconned that and said you were kerrigan, jim, and artanis/that other guy that Im blanking on that is constantly bitching about how no one's following the rules.

On November 14 2013 04:08 micronesia wrote:

The story typically progresses under the assumption that all players completed the final raid content before the next expansion (although this doesn't come up that often to be honest). The fact that you can get to Cata without having killed the Lich King is just an inherent weakness of storytelling in MMOs, and they kinda go into it in this blog:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=434433

On November 14 2013 04:16 Grumbels wrote:

That blog is very shallow in my opinion and I wouldn't take anything the author says seriously. If I complete a quest line and save the town of Elwynn from the menace of gnoll raids it is up to me to turn that into a meaningful experience. That's a real enough consequence and I shouldn't have to be bothered by respawning gnolls because it doesn't detract from my accomplishment.

On November 14 2013 04:20 micronesia wrote:

Given your stance on the issue, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this comic (which is probably inspired 95% by Wow):

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/6/60551/1465892-dickwolvespt1..jpg

On November 14 2013 04:16 Grumbels wrote:

That blog is very shallow in my opinion and I wouldn't take anything the author says seriously. If I complete a quest line and save the town of Elwynn from the menace of gnoll raids it is up to me to turn that into a meaningful experience. That's a real enough consequence and I shouldn't have to be bothered by respawning gnolls because it doesn't detract from my accomplishment.

On November 14 2013 04:33 Acrofales wrote:


I agree. While Hogger will respawn into infinity, the first time you kill him, you can see it as a meaningful completion of the story, or you can see it as just another grind, depending on how you, as a player, approach the game. As far as roleplaying: respawns are simply an artifact of the fact that you share the world with other players, and Hogger needs to be killable for them as well. Raids and dungeons need to be repeatable for farming purposes, but for roleplaying purposes you should ignore that as "non-canonical" and treat all the bosses you killed as definitively dead. It is thus somewhat strange that a ROLEplaying game (regardless of its MMO quality) does not actually progress YOUR story. Blizzard has done some things, like the phasing parts of the world, to make it feel more like your story, but in the end, you don't feel like you are truly playing the role of a super badass Illidan-slaying hero. Compare this to more traditional RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, or more modern ones like Oblivion or The Witcher 1 or 2: your choices truly make a difference in the world, and in the way people treat you. Due to the single-player nature it is easier to make non-linear storylines with completely different outcome, but Blizzard could do a little bit of this. There are some quests I remember where Thrall specifically asked to see you, to consult on important matters. They could do things like this... and if you answer "no, we should definitely not go through the dark portal", then the armies stay at home (for you), until you go to the leaders that be (Vol'jin nowadays, I suppose) and tell them "yeah, Garrosh is a threat that we shouldn't ignore, lets go beat him silly. Prepare the armies to storm the Dark Portal".

It's a semantic difference: in the end all players will choose to play further through the content, but in one situation your super badass raidboss-slaying hero is an integral part of the world, consulted on important questions, and in the other situation you are a super badass raidboss-slaying nameless adventurer.

It also doesn't have to happen for everything... some things just happen. But if you were treated as an important advisor from time to time (rather than just being called on to dispose of evil badguy X who Vol'jin has decided must die), it'd be a more immersive feeling.

To tie this back into garrisons: minions that depend on you are a decent way of making your hero feel more important in the world.They depend on you to keep you safe, and give them orders.

On November 14 2013 04:11 micronesia wrote:

I got the impression they retconned you out, but didn't assign you a role to one of the major characters... just that you were observing the story progress and controlling the armies. Either way, SC is very different from WoW in terms of the role the player plays in the story.

On November 14 2013 05:09 Spaylz wrote:
Blizzard could learn from this, although I doubt they will, they are not big on taking inspiration from other games and they tend to stick their head in the ground and keep doing things their own way, even if some more profitable or simply better ways are introduced by competitors.

On November 14 2013 05:21 SKC wrote:
In WoW lore you are never the super badass hero that kills the big bad boss though. Maiev is the hero against Illidan, Tirion was the hero against Arthas, etc. You are part of the backstage group of adventurers that help them assault the fortress. You could have more recognition, you were part of it in the end, but you are just a little bit more than a random unit in WC3.

It's something really weird to put in practical terms, but Blizzard has definatelly avoided saying you were the main guy responsible for killing the major villains.

You are not Raynor, Furion or Thrall, you are at most that elite unit with higher stats, sometimes named, that follows them in a mission (ussually the ones where you don't control a base).

On November 14 2013 07:11 Acrofales wrote:

Fine, but we took down Onyxia, Kael'thas, Vashj, Archimonde, Ragnaros, Nefarion, Kel'thuzad, a load of corrupted titans and two old gods without any help (not sure anymore about Kil'jaeden, but I think we did him without a lore character too). If I'm an elite soldier, I'm at least as awesome as Bolvar Fordragon, or Varok Saurfang. Their greatest claims to fame in WoW are that they got their asses kicked by Arthas (and Bolvar earlier got bedazzled by Onyxia too)

On November 14 2013 07:11 Acrofales wrote:

Fine, but we took down Onyxia, Kael'thas, Vashj, Ragnaros, Nefarion, Kel'thuzad, a load of corrupted titans and two old gods without any help (not sure anymore about Kil'jaeden, but I think we did him without a lore character too). If I'm an elite soldier, I'm at least as awesome as Bolvar Fordragon, or Varok Saurfang. Their greatest claims to fame in WoW are that they got their asses kicked by Arthas (and Bolvar earlier got bedazzled by Onyxia too)

Edited out Archimonde. Forgot the mechanics of that fight and Tyrande et al. coming to help. And at the guy below me: fine, we beat Kil'jaeden senseless and sent him back into the Twisting Nether. Still sounds like a victory to me

On November 14 2013 05:11 arb wrote:


Actually in SC, I forget what you are for the Terrans I wanna say youre the guy over Raynor but im not sure, but as Zerg youre a Cerebrate and as Protoss you're Artanis

But in BW I don't think you have a role, I think they say youre a Captain in the Terran campaign at the start, when shes telling you about the cryostim or whatever tho.

On November 14 2013 08:34 Teoita wrote:
A WoW character, strictily speaking, is simply a means to tell several stories of good vs evil (more or less). All these threats do get dealt with by someone, and the rest is up to the player's imagination.

Some people might like to think of their characters as badasses that save the world over and over again, others might instead prefer to see them as more "completementary" characters, perhaps helping out with the quests leading up to a bad guy's demise but not being the one to actively struck the kiling blow.

At the end of the day it's still an RPG, so a lot of it is left to your own imagination and how you interpret and think of your character.

Personally i think it's kind of silly to think that my mage would have been a major part in the deaths of (counting only the major raid bosses i've downed at some point in my career so that's really reducing it too) Ragnaros, Onyxia, Nefarian, C'Thun, Hakkar, Gruul, Magtheridon, Vashj, Kael'Thas, Kel'Thuzad, Sartharion, Malygos, Yogg'Saron and Arthas. Someone doing that would at least be as powerful, famous and revered as Thrall or any other major lore character. That's a subjective thing though, someone else might be ok with their characters doing that.