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Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne - Page 64

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Spaylz
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan1743 Posts
June 10 2015 05:40 GMT
#1261
On June 10 2015 03:49 3point14 wrote:
im very happy with Wc3s story. Doesnt matter if they copied it from somewhere else, it fits perfectly.
Arthas' story is better than many movies, the orcs get their own lovely story and the nightelves get a truly epic worldsaving one.
What games are the best storywise for you?
Prob Deus Ex for me (despite it being deliberately overloaded with conspiracys), BG2, Wc3 ^^ , Jedi knight 2 and many more, just cant think of them right now


Easy. Final Fantasy games are really up there for me. Currently playing FFX for the first time, and it's outstanding. My absolute favourite would be FFIX though.

But besides FF, for games that are story-oriented, I typically go with RPGs/JPRGs really. The older games from the "golden age", i.e. Star Ocean 2 or The Legend of Dragoon. Or more recently, Bravely Default. The end phase of that game was horribly and needlessly repetitive, but the story remains excellent.
I like words.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
June 10 2015 09:32 GMT
#1262
Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines is my favorite, especially when you play as Malkavian and get dialogue tailored to the madness of your character. I loved that game so much I was actually looking forward to the World of Darkness MMO that was in development, but afaik they canceled it to focus more on developing Eve Online.

What touched me in that game is the fact that the world is so dark and gloomy, with rampant cynicism, and the character you play is no saint by definition, but the focus is still on preserving humanity with various small acts of kindness and decency. Because "in a world of darkness a single flame can light the world" or something like that. I know it sounds a bit sappy. :p
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Topin
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Peru10081 Posts
June 10 2015 16:04 GMT
#1263
im considering buying Warcraft books from amazon or blizz, you guys recommend any of them?
i would define my style between a mix of ByuN, Maru and MKP
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-10 19:17:10
June 10 2015 19:15 GMT
#1264
On May 29 2015 00:35 Grumbels wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 28 2015 05:43 Grumbels wrote:
I wanted to do a post about retracing development of Warcraft 3, without sources just by looking at what would be likely first causes and extrapolate from there to see if it matches up with the final result. I wanted to promote the idea that basically every idea in Warcraft 3 derives from two fundamental ideas, the first being simply that Blizzard was now poised to develop a Warcraft sequel and the second that they wanted to take this game into a more tactical direction because people seemed to enjoy the unit control aspect.

Starcraft was successful with its three asymmetrical races and it seemed like a natural idea to extend this approach and devise four asymmetrical races. Two of them, humans and orcs, were legacy factions from earlier Warcraft iterations and had to feature in the sequel for obvious reasons. As Warcraft is based on Warhammer, -- originally it was supposed to be a direct adaptation, it made sense to draw from its universe for the additional races. Available are humans, orcs, ogres, goblins, lizardmen, skaven, dwarves, undead, chaos and elves. Out of these dwarves, high elves and humans are already coupled as an existing faction, so are orcs, ogres, goblins. Lizardmen and skaven are more creatively conceived (i.e. weird) races that don't entirely fit the simple fantasy story line of Warcraft which draws not only on Warhammer but also on the recently released Lord of the Rings movie for inspiration. Even so, you can find traces of the lizardmen in trolls and the naga. The Warhammer wood elves are the most similar to the elves of Lord of the Rings and are the natural enemies of various chaos factions and naturally suggest themselves as an available faction.

Undead and chaos would serve to round out the set since originally chaos was supposed to be the fifth races titled as the burning legion, but this was cut before release. Here might be an explanation why, since I recall this being mentioned in the podcast, but I couldn't find an exact quote. Perhaps it's the case that having three (including orcs) evil races would have been too much. The undead faction is already strongly derivative of the human faction, with the dark knight, ghoul, necromancer and banshee being in some sense twisted variations on alliance units (paladin, footman, priest, archer). The burning legion uses satyrs and corrupted beasts and could be seen as the dark mirror to the elvish race and the developers could have been accused of formulaic design. Furthermore, the undead and burning legion draw on some of the same concepts such as the dreadlord, which would otherwise have been a burning legion hero. Having to develop an additional race is simply quite difficult and is more ambitious than necessary because even four races represents a higher number than was the case for Brood War. On a side note, I'm wondering what races will feature in Warcraft IV because WoW added so many potential factions.

So, I think the decision to create a game with four (or five) asymmetrical races makes perfect sense given the context.

I actually wanted to look more at gameplay with this post, since the number of races is sort of besides the point I wanted to make, but I'll save that for my next post tomorrow (stay tuned ^^ ).

Next post!

Historically Blizzard developed Warcraft: Legends before changing it to RTS gameplay and calling it Warcraft 3, but some concepts of that title survived in the form of the focus on smaller army combat and the inclusion of heroes. However, if you ignore this bit of historical information the decision to use heroes still makes sense. If Blizzard asked itself what would be an interesting approach to a micro-focused RTS game, the concept of special units with abilities seems like a good answer because that's something people enjoyed from the Starcraft campaign. I don't know what was the exact chain of decisions, but I think that placing heroes in your game is one of those fundamental decisions that affects the shape of the game a lot.

The obvious issue historically with having heroes in the game is that they don't scale. People often put aside heroes in the Starcraft campaign as they were a liability and would die too easily. This immediately suggests the following four ideas: 1) heroes should be able to respawn; 2) heroes should be able to scale over the course of the game; 3) units in the game should have a high health : damage ratio to avoid heroes dying too quickly; 4) unit numbers should stay relatively similar throughout the game.

Some of these points can be connected to other ideas. The first point leads to the altar building where you can then choose your hero, which leads to the higher starting resources to be able to build an altar right away. The second point becomes the idea that you can upgrade your hero, above and beyond the already existing unit upgrades. Of course the implementation chosen for this is the experience mechanic, but that doesn't strictly follow from the second point since you could imagine buying upgrades or even items too, so more on that later. The third point stands on its own, but is also related to unit design choices. The fourth point informs the need for upkeep (a tax on higher army size) and the change from growing to static economy since WCII & Starcraft. After all, if you can constantly improve your economy then even with upkeep, unless the latter is extremely taxing, you will eventually be able to overpower heroes easily, again unless heroes can become extremely strong and able to face hundreds of units.

Now you've created an environment where heroes can be used, but you haven't really created incentives to use heroes. You're also left with implementation details about the number of abilities that heroes should have. Experience is an obvious mechanic that was already used in other games, including Blizzard's very own Diablo. By letting heroes be affected by experience the player has an incentive to use his hero units in fights directly rather than indirectly.

Some ideas combine here and the leveling system as a way to upgrade the hero, based on experience points can take shape, with new abilities to purchase every level. Because the hero needs to scale, the abilities should have different levels of strength too, which is why you have three levels per ability.

There still is a problem though, maybe there are now incentives to use heroes in fights, but in a zero-sum multiplayer game you might still want to avoid fights in order to not give your opponent a chance to get an advantage. And since the economy had to be changed you can easily run out of things to do. For the game to work there need to be constant fights, since that's where heroes shine and that's what's supposed to replace the focus on economy. Creeps suggest themselves here, which by the way already existed in Starcraft alpha as a mechanic before they settled on empty maps. Hostile, neutral units that give you some reward for fighting them, which encourage you to be out on the map and which still encourage player interaction because of creepjacking.

Two additional points about the experience mechanic: there is an issue with experience in that you'll probably get more of it later on since there will be more units around, so you might have most of the game with no exp points to spend, and second of all experience counts as a positive feedback loop mechanic that doubles your gameplay advantage after killing an enemy unit. That's why you need increasingly more experience to level up as the game progresses. And of course experience should simply be given after killing a unit, which is the simplest and clearest approach, and that's what later on became last hit and denies in moba games.

Finally to diversify hero usage and to make killing creeps more exciting there would be item drops and items you could use, which of course is a standard idea in rpg games as well. This means that shops can exist in the game and it also suggests neutral buildings, different sort of shops for different types of items and neutral shops where you can buy units instead of items.

So the point is that the Warcraft III economy, unit balance and hero system seem to naturally follow from the idea to have a smaller scale, micro focused game.

Tomorrow I might do one about the unit design and the symmetries in game, based on 3point14's very interesting post on the last page.

So, further ideas regarding Warcraft 3 design, not touching units yet but looking at resources and heroes.

There are some legacy aspects that Blizzard had to deal with first. One of them is naval combat and oil as a resource. While games like Age of Empires had success with a myriad of resourcing options, Starcraft showed that just two resources (gas, minerals) already created functional gameplay without complicating the game. Balancing different resources functions with only two resources, much like decision making requires at least two choices, but not necessarily more. The introduction of experience can be framed as the addition of a new fundamental resource, further weakening the case for a third natural resource. Experience might not be a natural resource, but it functions like one because creeps are placed in strategic locations on the map and experience can be gathered from them using a special unit. There are clear analogues with gold and lumber and because there is only finite space on the maps different resources directly compete with each other in terms of map space.
It was already clear that naval combat could not have been a focus of the game. If you've ever played an island map in Warcraft 3 you'll see that the gameplay suffers for taking the spotlight away from unit interactions. Heroes can not meaningfully interact with naval forces and although the result can still be fun it becomes non-essential.
I think that's why it makes a lot of sense that Blizzard elected to keep gold and lumber as the two main resources. I've already said that due to hero scaling gold mines had to be changed to give a fixed and not a linearly growing income.

This would still count as a legacy concept that Blizzard had to resolve: adapting RPG characters into a real-time strategy game. Two aspects to focus on are item storage and design and stat points allocation. Regarding items, there are two constraints here. One is that both players need to be able to inspect the item set at first glance and the second one is that in a real-time strategy game you do not have time to carefully deck out your hero character with pop-up windows like in conventional RPG's. This means that the number of items per hero needs to be limited and that they should probably operate independently of item slot (if the number of possible slots is quite small then there is a significant luck factor for whether item drops can even be functional, because you might get two gloves in a row etc.). There are graphical limitations to discourage this further, because of the isometric and zoomed-out gameplay view making it difficult to distinguish items by subtle graphical distinctions. This also suggests on-use items and tomes, because there is no good reason to have spare item storage and you want to discourage the player from having to constantly leave items behind or walk back and forth to item shops. Tomes and the like introduce an additional class of item drops, allowing for more creeps to give (fun) rewards. If you follow this same logical path you might wind up with runes as well.
Similar constraints exist for stat point allocation: you can't have too many different types of stat points because the game becomes too complicated quickly. Warrior, ranger, wizard are the three archetypal classes in virtually every RPG and therefore strength, agility and intelligence are as good a choice as any. The inability to choose your stat point allocation also makes sense. Very often it's a chore because the right choice is obvious (especially if you already have the notion of a primary stat with damage bonus) and might lead to heroes with extremely specified stats or to heroes who have all their weaknesses rounded out, which is not good to have in a strategy game.

I think that once more it's difficult to see how Blizzard could have done any better. I think one area which is a bit arbitrary is the idea of choosing your abilities and leveling them up, which tellingly does not exist in Heroes of the Storm. I think it would have been equally viable to have every ability scale with the primary stat and to remove the decisions on leveling, which is an RPG flourish perhaps besides the point in an RTS game. But on the other hand, it works out fine anyway and it gives you some decisions and dynamics to play with.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
June 10 2015 19:18 GMT
#1265
On June 11 2015 01:04 Topin wrote:
im considering buying Warcraft books from amazon or blizz, you guys recommend any of them?

My brother owns some of the Richard Knaak novels and I think he considers them passable, but adequate entertainment. He has bad taste in most things though. >.> afaik usually the Christie Golden novels are considered best, but last I heard of it is from ~2007.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Spaylz
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan1743 Posts
June 10 2015 19:49 GMT
#1266
On June 11 2015 04:18 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2015 01:04 Topin wrote:
im considering buying Warcraft books from amazon or blizz, you guys recommend any of them?

My brother owns some of the Richard Knaak novels and I think he considers them passable, but adequate entertainment. He has bad taste in most things though. >.> afaik usually the Christie Golden novels are considered best, but last I heard of it is from ~2007.


That's funny. Christie Golden is a pretty terrible writer.

Here's a fun activity for you: buy Rise of the Lich King and count how many times she uses any form of the word "grin". I guarantee you it's almost one per page, if not more.

I read a fair amount of them. All the books from the Ancient War trilogy, as well as Lord of the Clans, the one about Jaina and Theramore (forgot the name), and probably a couple more about Khadgar and Medivh. They're okay. I was young though. I think that if I read them again today, I'd likely find them bad.
I like words.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-10 21:25:07
June 10 2015 20:46 GMT
#1267
On June 11 2015 04:49 Spaylz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2015 04:18 Grumbels wrote:
On June 11 2015 01:04 Topin wrote:
im considering buying Warcraft books from amazon or blizz, you guys recommend any of them?

My brother owns some of the Richard Knaak novels and I think he considers them passable, but adequate entertainment. He has bad taste in most things though. >.> afaik usually the Christie Golden novels are considered best, but last I heard of it is from ~2007.


That's funny. Christie Golden is a pretty terrible writer.

Here's a fun activity for you: buy Rise of the Lich King and count how many times she uses any form of the word "grin". I guarantee you it's almost one per page, if not more.

I read a fair amount of them. All the books from the Ancient War trilogy, as well as Lord of the Clans, the one about Jaina and Theramore (forgot the name), and probably a couple more about Khadgar and Medivh. They're okay. I was young though. I think that if I read them again today, I'd likely find them bad.

I'll take your word for it, I've never read them myself.

I feel like virtually all fantasy works are really fun when you're young because the Warhammer/LotR tropes are so engaging to young minds, but as you get older some of it doesn't hold up. I personally thought that the RoC story was more classical, with hints of tragedy, so that it contrasts positively with the TFT story which is a bit more cheesy. And I felt the WCII story was still engaging when I reread the manual a few years ago.

In the future when these games are played only as curios from the past I think people will find the story lines of SCII and Diablo III to negatively stand out and distract from the gameplay, while the earlier installments of those series will still have stories that contribute to the atmosphere of the game.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
June 10 2015 21:10 GMT
#1268
On June 10 2015 03:49 3point14 wrote:
im very happy with Wc3s story. Doesnt matter if they copied it from somewhere else, it fits perfectly.
Arthas' story is better than many movies, the orcs get their own lovely story and the nightelves get a truly epic worldsaving one.
What games are the best storywise for you?
Prob Deus Ex for me (despite it being deliberately overloaded with conspiracys), BG2, Wc3 ^^ , Jedi knight 2 and many more, just cant think of them right now


The story I absolutely adored was the one from the Legacy of Kain and Soul Reaver series. Truly awesome and tragic/dramatic tone with a couple of twists and surprises.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
Spaylz
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan1743 Posts
June 11 2015 05:55 GMT
#1269
On June 11 2015 05:46 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2015 04:49 Spaylz wrote:
On June 11 2015 04:18 Grumbels wrote:
On June 11 2015 01:04 Topin wrote:
im considering buying Warcraft books from amazon or blizz, you guys recommend any of them?

My brother owns some of the Richard Knaak novels and I think he considers them passable, but adequate entertainment. He has bad taste in most things though. >.> afaik usually the Christie Golden novels are considered best, but last I heard of it is from ~2007.


That's funny. Christie Golden is a pretty terrible writer.

Here's a fun activity for you: buy Rise of the Lich King and count how many times she uses any form of the word "grin". I guarantee you it's almost one per page, if not more.

I read a fair amount of them. All the books from the Ancient War trilogy, as well as Lord of the Clans, the one about Jaina and Theramore (forgot the name), and probably a couple more about Khadgar and Medivh. They're okay. I was young though. I think that if I read them again today, I'd likely find them bad.

I'll take your word for it, I've never read them myself.

I feel like virtually all fantasy works are really fun when you're young because the Warhammer/LotR tropes are so engaging to young minds, but as you get older some of it doesn't hold up. I personally thought that the RoC story was more classical, with hints of tragedy, so that it contrasts positively with the TFT story which is a bit more cheesy. And I felt the WCII story was still engaging when I reread the manual a few years ago.

In the future when these games are played only as curios from the past I think people will find the story lines of SCII and Diablo III to negatively stand out and distract from the gameplay, while the earlier installments of those series will still have stories that contribute to the atmosphere of the game.


I read a lot of fantasy books! And I'm 25.

As of late, I've read a few books from the Discworld series, the first book of the Broken Empire trilogy, and I'm currently reading the second book of the Blood Song saga. I like fantasy.

Next up I will read more Discworld, and also the His Dark Materials trilogy, and possibly reread Harry Potter. The Kingkiller Chronicle is also out there.

I don't think fantasy is bad by any means. There's good stuff out there. It's just that Warcraft books are not often that well written, and the story never was truly literature worthy.
I like words.
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
June 11 2015 06:10 GMT
#1270
gahd please. Nothing from Knaak is passable
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 11 2015 06:34 GMT
#1271
On June 11 2015 01:04 Topin wrote:
im considering buying Warcraft books from amazon or blizz, you guys recommend any of them?

I got a copy of Lord of the Clans #2 when I bought the game. It's been a while but I remember enjoying it.
3point14
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany890 Posts
June 11 2015 12:41 GMT
#1272
On June 11 2015 01:04 Topin wrote:
im considering buying Warcraft books from amazon or blizz, you guys recommend any of them?

Here is a link to a number of Wc3 fanmade campaigns, the first of which, is apparently made after a Wc3 novel.
I have neither read it nor played it though
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
June 11 2015 19:56 GMT
#1273
Random question about the WC3 editor for those that may be good with it:

How do you change the notification speeches that are given at various parts of the game? (E.g. "You're under attack", "you need more gold", "can't build there", etc.).

I have a mod that, for some reason, has these in a foreign language and I'm trying to go into the game file and just switch them back to the base English version.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Baardmeester
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1 Post
June 12 2015 10:07 GMT
#1274
Why did they revert the mappool? Now we are back playing on the old boring maps.
lestye
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4163 Posts
June 12 2015 23:32 GMT
#1275
On June 12 2015 19:07 Baardmeester wrote:
Why did they revert the mappool? Now we are back playing on the old boring maps.

Lots of people on the Classic forums were bitching about it nonstop. If you look at the news , a message from the classic team says they want to change the maps, but with the community so there's no controversial/stupid maps in the pool.
"You guys are just edgelords. Embrace your inner weeb desu" -Zergneedsfood
wickedmeout
Profile Joined March 2010
United States18 Posts
June 13 2015 23:51 GMT
#1276
Is wc3 worth getting?
I've never played it but I wanna play online and also beat the campaign
And what sites have a big/active community?
Emerson_H
Profile Joined March 2014
United States460 Posts
June 14 2015 00:30 GMT
#1277
On June 14 2015 08:51 wickedmeout wrote:
Is wc3 worth getting?
I've never played it but I wanna play online and also beat the campaign
And what sites have a big/active community?


Yes, definitely. It's probably the best single-player campaign out of all Blizzard RTS's.

For multiplayer, check out W3Arena (http://tft.w3arena.net). Still an active community and a fairly competitive ladder.
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
June 14 2015 02:15 GMT
#1278
On June 11 2015 04:18 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2015 01:04 Topin wrote:
im considering buying Warcraft books from amazon or blizz, you guys recommend any of them?

My brother owns some of the Richard Knaak novels and I think he considers them passable, but adequate entertainment. He has bad taste in most things though. >.> afaik usually the Christie Golden novels are considered best, but last I heard of it is from ~2007.


I read a few of Knaak's books, namely two of the Diablo ones and 1 of the Warcraft ones. Both were fantastic. I was a teenager at the time tho but I remember them being aweosme.
wickedmeout
Profile Joined March 2010
United States18 Posts
June 14 2015 04:32 GMT
#1279
On June 14 2015 09:30 Emerson_H wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2015 08:51 wickedmeout wrote:
Is wc3 worth getting?
I've never played it but I wanna play online and also beat the campaign
And what sites have a big/active community?


Yes, definitely. It's probably the best single-player campaign out of all Blizzard RTS's.

For multiplayer, check out W3Arena (http://tft.w3arena.net). Still an active community and a fairly competitive ladder.


Do you need a copy of both wc3 and frozen throne to play on w3arena?
3point14
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany890 Posts
June 14 2015 13:24 GMT
#1280
yes you do, you need both keys.
but I would rather suggest you to start by playing 4on4 or 3on3 teamgames on Blizzards bnet. w3arena is rather tough.
also on bnet, there is still a nice community for custom games, like Dota and many cool RPGs.
from my experience, the custom games are better in Wc3 than in Sc2.
hf!
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