EPTInstead people just join in on the internet outrage and then preorder the next product.
Which is what i said would happen after last year's outrage.
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne - Page 203
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9649 Posts
Instead people just join in on the internet outrage and then preorder the next product. Which is what i said would happen after last year's outrage. | ||
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castleeMg
Canada761 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On February 04 2020 22:57 Wombat_NI wrote: I think the problem RTS has is it’s not easily monetisible as you say, but I don’t think it has to be as relatively niche as it is now. Starcraft 2 did rather well, and it wasn’t just returning players from the original. However in that same rough era, before loot boxes and monetisation really catching on, other franchises with recognition and legacy were allowed to tank. EA and CnC being a real prime example. It’s like the big publishers made bad RTS games and then used that as evidence nobody likes RTS games anymore. Technically you can monetize RTS. Just not as hardcore and easy as FPS games. You can make alternate skins (but that's a lot more work than for FPS gun for example or just a hat), you can add paid DLC/expansions with additional factions, game modes, campaigns etc. And speaking of EA and CnC, I personally think that CnC 3: Tiberium Wars was pretty dope. The story was rather crap but this game looks absolutely wonderful even today (it's much better looking than SC2 and it came 3 years earlier and wasn't updated as much, it even looks better than CnC 4, which uses this new RA3 engine that I'm not super fond of). | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On February 04 2020 23:06 Jockmcplop wrote: Its sad but all of this could be fixed if all the people who were going to boycott Blizzard actually did it. Instead people just join in on the internet outrage and then preorder the next product. Which is what i said would happen after last year's outrage. I dindt pre-order and helped a friend to get a refund. Im doing my part.gif | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On February 04 2020 23:06 Jockmcplop wrote: Its sad but all of this could be fixed if all the people who were going to boycott Blizzard actually did it. Instead people just join in on the internet outrage and then preorder the next product. Which is what i said would happen after last year's outrage. Depends. I’m not sure people by and large stuck to their guns over Hong Kong related shenanigans. On Reforged it’s purely to do with the product really and I guess I wouldn’t even use the boycott term, it’s potential and past customers being dissatisfied with what’s being offered. And while tying in to the wider dissatisfaction with Blizzard’s direction lately I guess it’s a separate case and people do seem to be actually voting with their wallets. While I did cancel my Reforged order over the former, I was both drunk and in a shit mood, so I can’t really say I would have stuck to that. On the other hand concerns with its performance and my rather ropey rig, lack of a launch day ladder (my primary concern really) etc and I wasn’t convinced to break whatever ‘boycott’ I had in mind. It’s pretty easy for me not to buy Blizzard things as I’m not really a huge fan of Diablo, Overwatch doesn’t interest me too much, etc. | ||
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Yurie
11836 Posts
On February 04 2020 22:57 Wombat_NI wrote: I’ve never played AoE for, whatever reasons. Think I was too engrossed in other RTS games in my youth. The Definitive Edition seems a perfect way for someone like my to experience the full AoE game having missed out. Quite excited to give it a shot. From what I’ve read that sounds how a modernisation of a classic should be done. I think the problem RTS has is it’s not easily monetisible as you say, but I don’t think it has to be as relatively niche as it is now. Starcraft 2 did rather well, and it wasn’t just returning players from the original. However in that same rough era, before loot boxes and monetisation really catching on, other franchises with recognition and legacy were allowed to tank. EA and CnC being a real prime example. It’s like the big publishers made bad RTS games and then used that as evidence nobody likes RTS games anymore. They’re awkwardly placed for the indie market to plug the gap, especially for games that are competitive in nature. I’m not sure why, I’d assume it’s harder to make an RTS that’s balanced and interesting for small indie teams. Indies have made some of my favourite games of the last decade but they tend to be in certain genres like platforms. AI War seems like a good indie game. Very hard for him to finance AI War 2 and get it out the door though. By all accounts 2 is still a good to great RTS. Generally speaking variants that isn't the classical RTS tends to do better. Too much APM required to perform ones thoughts in many RTS games is the likely explanation to me. If I want to be creative in a strategic sense I don't launch up SC2 or BW, those are build order games (same reason I quit Chess in the end). A 4X or Grand History game allows for greater amount of strategic creativity and doesn't require high APM to perform it. Though I will agree most 4X games also become build order games. But a session can easily be 10h, thus there isn't the same quick feedback loop on it. On February 04 2020 09:26 Amarok wrote: Cut it out with that drone bullshit. You know how much harder it is to defend the game at this point? Reforged is an overall upgrade to WC3 in my experience and the community reaction is insane. That's my opinion and I'm voicing it. Piling on or staying quiet would be the easy way out. Everyone who disagrees with you is not a shill. It's funny you mention DotA. The situation was pretty similar. Less than half the hero roster was ported from DotA1 and there were numerous bugs on release. I don't remember the release patch having any sort of ladder either (though I may be wrong about that, it's been a while) and there certainly wasn't clan support or anything like that. It would have been easy to build a narrative that the game was a downgrade from WC3 DotA but that didn't happen. Valve had plenty of goodwill for the project at the time (something Blizzard does not have for a variety of reasons, some well deserved) and the community was broadly excited to have HD DotA. In other words the major difference is perception, not the relative quality of the two products in comparison to their predecessors. As to the rest, the shortcomings of Reforged do bother me and I was pretty clear about that. My issue is with the scale and ferocity of the community reaction. This is still one of the greatest games ever made and there's a degree of glee with which some are proclaiming it a corpse which I find revolting. Dota 2 was released a free to play closed (invite only) beta. At the point it actually went fully live it played better than the original in my eyes. I had stopped with DotA at that point since the experience of the new one was simply superior. It also had MM based on MMR very early on, just didn't show it in a ladder. It was one of the reasons it was superior even early on. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On February 05 2020 02:30 Yurie wrote: AI War seems like a good indie game. Very hard for him to finance AI War 2 and get it out the door though. By all accounts 2 is still a good to great RTS. Generally speaking variants that isn't the classical RTS tends to do better. Too much APM required to perform ones thoughts in many RTS games is the likely explanation to me. If I want to be creative in a strategic sense I don't launch up SC2 or BW, those are build order games (same reason I quit Chess in the end). A 4X or Grand History game allows for greater amount of strategic creativity and doesn't require high APM to perform it. The problem is that 4x games don't really suffer as much as RTS games these days. You have some excellent titles recently (ie: in the past decade) like Endless Space 2, Sins of the Solar Empire: Rebellion, Endless Legend, Age of Wonders: Planetfall, Galactic Civilizations III and Civ series. All were pretty well received with very little drama even though some of them were pretty hyped. RTS games have been a disaster for the past decade. CnC4, which wasn't even supposed to be a real RTS but rather some dumbed down mini-game for the Chinese market, CnC: Rivals (RTS on mobile, please...), SC2 (people will argue this but to me it was fail from the get go, played it for maybe 1-2 hours before uninstalling), BW remaster was mediocre, Homeworld Remasters have met with lukeworm reception, CoH 2 wasn't super bad but still disappointing, DoW III was an atrocity, there have been some inconsequential titles along the way, like A Year of Rain, now WC3. Even DoW II and Deserts of Kharak were met with mixed feelings. The world needs another RTS that wouldn't necessarily be a remaster or a rehash of some old IP. Something that would blow people's minds and breathe some fresh air into the genre. But for that you need a studio that has the love and dedication required to focus on just making a great game and not short term financial gains... Speaking of old IPs, I'd gobble up new installment of Dark Colony instantly if it were made properly. Horror RTS is where it's at, I'm telling you. Just not with zombies... Edit: In actual WC3R news, an info from Blizz insider revealed their concern about this new custom map ownership EULA. It seems that some spiteful people have created some pretty unsavory maps (with some pretty hardcore stuff in them) that are now fully owned by Blizzard. To each his own I guess. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
I wonder what a really good hypothetical RTS that does something different (or, largely the same but better a la how classic Blizzard operates) would look like? One thing that annoys me most other RTS games I’ve sampled is they are a pain to micro in, which I enjoy a lot (hence playing a bunch of Blizzard’s offerings) A bunch of friends who like the more grand strategy, think rather than click a lot approach find classic RTS too fast and mechanically focused. I sampled Star Wars:Empire at War there (bought a 40 game classic Star Wars collection, only getting into them 2 years later), quite enjoying it. I liked its multiple theatres and levels, although I know it’s not unique in this regard. Got me thinking that a hybrid grand strategy/classic RTS, which would likely lend itself more to cooperative play would be pretty sweet. You could sort of scratch both the issues of the grand strategist and the micro maniac by having them both play together, one would be like the overall general and the other a field general. Would likely be a pain to do really well, but would be nifty. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On February 05 2020 04:00 Wombat_NI wrote: Cool posts guys, (although I disagree on SC2 Manitou :p) I wonder what a really good hypothetical RTS that does something different (or, largely the same but better a la how classic Blizzard operates) would look like? One thing that annoys me most other RTS games I’ve sampled is they are a pain to micro in, which I enjoy a lot (hence playing a bunch of Blizzard’s offerings) A bunch of friends who like the more grand strategy, think rather than click a lot approach find classic RTS too fast and mechanically focused. I sampled Star Wars:Empire at War there (bought a 40 game classic Star Wars collection, only getting into them 2 years later), quite enjoying it. I liked its multiple theatres and levels, although I know it’s not unique in this regard. Got me thinking that a hybrid grand strategy/classic RTS, which would likely lend itself more to cooperative play would be pretty sweet. You could sort of scratch both the issues of the grand strategist and the micro maniac by having them both play together, one would be like the overall general and the other a field general. Would likely be a pain to do really well, but would be nifty. This has been done before. Unfortunately the game was way ahead of its time and didn't get enough traction. If it were released today as a modern thing it would be glorious. We're talking about Savage series here (Savage 2 especially), where some players play an FPS moba basically, getting exp, skilling up and one player on the team is the commander, building the base and buildings for the players on the ground to use (which let them switch to a higher tier unit if they accumulated enough cash and exp), gold mines, expansions, casting buffs on players etc. I've enjoyed it a lot. Edit: Holy crap! It seems they did a remaster in Unreal Engine 4! On it. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9649 Posts
Those were some really good RTS and were all really well received, although they probably barely made any money. The format of those games is great though and with a space/fantasy setting there's potential in that kind of format for something huge imo | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
He also thinks that new audio that were added to the game sounds stupid (new peasents deathsound in particular) And indeed if you make a comparison of old sounddesign with the newly added one, then you can tell there is a big difference for sure. Either you delete the old soundset, or you remain with new one, third choice is to make new ones to sound exactly like their classic counterpart stylistically speaking.. #Blizzardhasleftthegame | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 05 2020 07:30 Dav1oN wrote: Even Grubby gave up on new graphics :D He also thinks that new audio that were added to the game sounds stupid (new peasents deathsound in particular) And indeed if you make a comparison of old sounddesign with the newly added one, then you can tell there is a big difference for sure. Either you delete the old soundset, or you remain with new one, third choice is to make new ones to sound exactly like their classic counterpart stylistically speaking.. #Blizzardhasleftthegame They need to give us the option to toggle off new death sounds (same for skins, by the way). I don't want them, I'm too used to the classic ones to count how many units died. | ||
GTR
51449 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/n52l9clh0ze41.jpg) DID YOU NOT GET AN RTS GAME?!?!?! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On February 05 2020 08:45 GTR wrote: the icing on the cake ladies and gentleman DID YOU NOT GET AN RTS GAME?!?!?! I said earlier that I had a lot of sympathy for their customer service department over this debacle but not this particular individual. Seems a bit of a lottery on refunds or not, everyone I know in our local Starcraft community who tried managed to get one. Puts it rather into perspective how much of a fuckup this all is that the guys who were pushing the likes of myself who organise our annual SC2 tourney (think we’re approaching the ninth year) to add WC3 as they wanted a new game to learn and some variety are getting refunds. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On February 05 2020 08:04 TheDwf wrote: They need to give us the option to toggle off new death sounds (same for skins, by the way). I don't want them, I'm too used to the classic ones to count how many units died. Meh, developers don’t like giving users options these days. For some reason. Lock down the ability to mod, but lock down user choice too. Of course some mods may confer some kind of advantage, but I used to enjoy playing SC2 with the swapped out BW sounds and music way back when. It’s hardly hard to implement such a thing officially, likewise ‘classic WC3 sounds’ I could still recollect Brood War/WC3 death sounds half a decade+ after touching either game, I hadn’t even realised they’d changed some of them. God that would be really jarring for me haha. Probably more so than graphical changes | ||
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AssyrianKing
Australia2111 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Latham
9560 Posts
On February 05 2020 10:26 ProMeTheus112 wrote: i just saw a short footage with a small chat section in the bottom right of the screen, is this what they did to the chat? man war3 had one of the best bnet interfaces, just a bit slower transition between screens than others. Also remember it saved a bit less text, couldn't scroll up as much as d2/bw but still several pages. if thats what the chat is now thats just sad, well refund it Dude I don't know if you know but the people who made Battle.net that we both know and love have long since departed Blizzard. They started up their own company called Arena.net ... that was in the very early 2000s and Warcraft 3 was the very last game to use that iteration of Battle.net https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArenaNet Early WoW also used it apparently? but they ditched it in favor of a newly developed Battle.net 2.0 they showcased back in Starcraft 2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle.net I dunno who made the call that chatrooms were old and not cool and tried to make instant messaging the "thing" back then, but they shot the company in the foot lol. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On February 05 2020 11:06 Latham wrote: Dude I don't know if you know but the people who made Battle.net that we both know and love have long since departed Blizzard. They started up their own company called Arena.net ... that was in the very early 2000s and Warcraft 3 was the very last game to use that iteration of Battle.net https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArenaNet Early WoW also used it apparently? but they ditched it in favor of a newly developed Battle.net 2.0 they showcased back in Starcraft 2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle.net I dunno who made the call that chatrooms were old and not cool and tried to make instant messaging the "thing" back then, but they shot the company in the foot lol. <3 ArenaNet, GW forever in my heart. And it's true, nowadays in-game chat is usually pretty crap. I remember I used to love hanging out in the lobbies in WC3. And in general, the battle.net features back then were pretty dope with automated tournaments and what not. I wonder how long will it take them to re-introduce those in WC3R. I was a big fan of tournament player icons back then. | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
And it's so fucking sad. | ||
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