EPTThere are a lot of problems with RTS games and how they are designed. From the start of the game to the win conditions.
Guardians of Atlas - Page 29
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
There are a lot of problems with RTS games and how they are designed. From the start of the game to the win conditions. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 25 2016 02:03 Plansix wrote: The burden for knowledge for Mobas is way higher, but you only face 5 enemy heroes at a time. And if you don't know what they do and it causes you to mess up, you die once and respawn. In an RTS like BW, you lose the match and have to surrender to your opponent, maybe typing GG or not. And then you get to start over from the beginning of the match again. There are a lot of problems with RTS games and how they are designed. From the start of the game to the win conditions. Sure i agree with this. I am not 100% sure that losing the match outright is way more punishign than dying over and over again in a game that keeps going on for another 30 minutes though. Not sure if the game experience is actually a lot worse. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9358 Posts
Grumbels: I remember a buddy of mine got into SC2, but kept losing to zerg because he didn’t wall in properly. He learned how and then quit the instant the map pool changed because he didn’t want to have to go through the process of relearning how to build bases. I also got a similar story here. I was a in group of friend of 5, and one of the other guys had also bought the game. He tried it a few times before giving up, and suggested to me that it seemed Zerg was way too strong..... Note that this was 2 weeks after release where Zerg was insanely weak at the competitive level so most likely it was a result of him not knowing how to wall of and not being willing to spend the time to watch tutorials/read builds. On the other hand we would often in that friend group play Fifa, and all of them were quite good at it playing alot of online (1v1) as well. The difference is that you can learn Fifa by playing it. It's somewhat intuitive to get better at. Sc2 is simply way too punishing for those who (a) doesn't know and (b) isn't willing to spend a lot of time looking at 3rd party informations to get better at. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9358 Posts
On August 25 2016 02:10 Plansix wrote: As someone who have been in that role of having no idea what heroes do, you get to murder them back. Especially in Dota 2. In BW and SC2, you get to admit defeat and sign up for a new match. Yeh, when 10 relatively new players get matched up in a MOBA, the killing goes back and fourth. Everyone makes tons of mistakes and those are unlikely to actually be good at snowballing the game. If you make a mistake in Sc2 as a new player --> You lose the game which imo is a big difference. | ||
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lestye
United States4148 Posts
When I was learning Dota/HoN, I remember losing so many games because people freaked the fuck out when it came to heroes like bloodseeker/ riki | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Apparently GoA uses the moba style of defenders advantage here. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Dota for being an evil, terrible game that ruin lives, there is almost always come back potential even in the worst game. It is baked into soul of the game. Epic high ground defenses can lead to entire games turning around. Maybe players cite those come backs as the reason they play the game. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On August 25 2016 02:13 Hider wrote: Yeh, when 10 relatively new players get matched up in a MOBA, the killing goes back and fourth. Everyone makes tons of mistakes and those are unlikely to actually be good at snowballing the game. If you make a mistake in Sc2 as a new player --> You lose the game which imo is a big difference. But that needn't be the case, honestly if you play BW you have a lot of comeback potential. And re: base building, I've always thought something like the old map of Xel Naga Caverns with the open natural was a better standard to balance the game around, don't know why wall-offs had to be the standard. While there are some interesting strategic points about it, it becomes very binary about breaching the wall yes / no and it requires out of game knowledge about the importance of walling off. That said, most people aren't playing the game correctly in any sort of fashion and for new players to some extent the game almost has to play itself like it does in DotA if you want to reach the biggest audience. I don't really know how to achieve that for SC2, but imo WC3 was like that since you could just build a hero and some units, go creeping and if you were out of position you had a town portal etc. It also has to do with defender's advantage and comeback potential and being psychologically guided into making correct-ish decisions as a beginner. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
The thing is though: In mobas the actual defenders advantage comes into play because you respawn after death. You don't need to pay anything for this, it's automatic. I am not sure how GoA will pull this off tbh | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On August 25 2016 01:47 travis wrote: Looks to me like a lot of people saying that a game won't be good with basically nothing to back up their views other than experience with a handful of games they didn't like and one game they did like. Maybe people will enjoy this game, maybe they won't. I Don't see why anyone would claim the game will be bad before they've played it when we haven't seen a game like this before. yeah why should people discuss/theorize/speculate about a big upcoming rts game on you know, an RTS forum xD. but okay, thanks for your contribution to the discussion. and i mean, it's not like most of the people in the thread have been in the alpha either... noooo, no chance of that. and a trailer that shows off key gameplay mechanics? totally irrelevant too | ||
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lestye
United States4148 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 25 2016 02:52 lestye wrote: I think you guys need to address the scale of "defender's advantage", the defender's advantage in brood war is nothing like pushing tier 3s in Dota, that's not even talking about the tiers of towers with fortification before it, and how gold and experience catchup mechanics on top of that play into the game. Yeah good point. In rts games it's really simple actually: You have an army which is built by buildings. You need to pay for it. If you lose a good junk of your army you cannot be active anymore (because you need to rebuild it), which typically leads to the opponent gaing a huge advantage. The comeback mechanic is almost non existant, the defenders advantage is basically only the mapsize. In mobas if you lose your hero it respawns again automatically. You lose a bit of time and the enemey gains a bit of gold on you, but overall it doesn't snowball nearly as hard because you still can use your abilities, etc. Atm i only saw that there will be towers in GoA which will basically defend you from immediately losing the game when you lose your army. That's not really enough though i feel like. So i am excited to see what the basic comeback mechanic is in GoA. | ||
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Samcai
Belgium58 Posts
So you only loose placement, but no overall power. I don't know where they are on that idea tough. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On August 25 2016 03:01 The_Red_Viper wrote: Yeah good point. In rts games it's really simple actually: You have an army which is built by buildings. You need to pay for it. If you lose a good junk of your army you cannot be active anymore (because you need to rebuild it), which typically leads to the opponent gaing a huge advantage. The comeback mechanic is almost non existant, the defenders advantage is basically only the mapsize. In mobas if you lose your hero it respawns again automatically. You lose a bit of time and the enemey gains a bit of gold on you, but overall it doesn't snowball nearly as hard because you still can use your abilities, etc. Atm i only saw that there will be towers in GoA which will basically defend you from immediately losing the game when you lose your army. That's not really enough though i feel like. So i am excited to see what the basic comeback mechanic is in GoA. For example, supply depots are a comeback mechanic in Starcraft because they are a cost not incurred by the player recouping losses, but borne by the player expanding his army after victory. The BW economy serves as a comeback mechanic because the most cost efficient workers will be the last ones killed, so the hit to your worker force might not be as significant as it would appear on first glance. It's also the case that bases become progressively harder to take and that your first base has nine mineral patches versus seven for all others, furthermore workers can give return on investment for a while even on a limited base count, this means that a person who is contained can nevertheless still continue investing into economy. The mechanical difficulty in Brood War serves as comeback mechanic because a stronger army and economy becomes harder to control and you will be more prone to slip-ups. Examples in Warcraft 3 are the experience rubberbanding, the powerful base defenses, the upkeep mechanic, the fact that your workers are so resilient so that even an enemy inside your base can't easily stop your economy, the high health of the units allowed a defending player to get out some units even from production facilities that were under siege and heal them up somewhere else. Some general ones would include high-impact spells or timings to give opportunities to players to deal some sort of damage to restore parity. Another important one is the ability to turtle to create a powerful army or do an attack at a powerful timing. Starcraft 2 can feel like it has no comeback potential, I think because every sign of damage you take can be leveraged into some economic timing that can kill you. Timings are incredibly powerful in SC2 and at a lower level they play themselves because units move so intelligently. I think the streamlining of the game plays a role here. Keep in mind that a player who is defending against a direct attack technically has an advantage because he gets to focus all of his attention on his base, while the opponent gets to divide his attentions among reinforcements and his own base and his main force. But in SC2 that already doesn't matter as much. So I think there are lots of ways of affecting comeback potential in some way in the RTS genre. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Not much experience with wc3 so i cannot really comment on that. I still think it is fair to say that even in bw you can lose fairly easily to "allins" (a fast mnm push can kill zerg fairly easily if sunkens aren't up, etc) Mobas defenders advantage and comeback mechanics are way stronger which makes the game more enjoyable for the masses i think. You always know that a game will take around 30-40 minutes because of that. Respawning without cost is as unpunishing as you can design it pretty much, if you lose your first push in sc2/rts in general you have to build another force and if you for whatever reason didn't trade well enough you might outright lose the game. So GoA has towers which protect you, but what if you lose your army? Excited to test it! | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
There is something to be said about the clarity of Starcraft's gameplay though. The divergences in the outcome of the game reflect some sort of principled approach to the core mechanics, not artificially altered to force certain outcomes. It's not nice to instantly lose after some cannon rush or all-in, in fact that's one of the main reasons I don't play the game myself, but it does show integrity to not add crude constraints removing those strategies. I think ideally comeback potential should naturally arise from the design and not be forced in by a unit like the mothership core. It's difficult to explain though. | ||
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lestye
United States4148 Posts
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