On August 23 2013 18:33 itsdamuffinman wrote: In which way does GDDR5 slow down the CPU compared to DDR3?
Edit: I guess it's the latency. But how much higher is it really compared to DDR3? If not much we shouldn't worry about it. High Bandwidth (DDR 2000+) RAM outperforms low latency RAM (DDR 1333) in pc games by a two digit percentage iirc. Not that it mattered much because mostly loading times are affected and CPU&GPU are the deciding factors in PC gaming.
It's partly latency the latency is massive in terms of timings on system ram and that does effect cpu performance as cpu's use latency much more then the highly parallel gpu's of today. But it's also how is the cpu linked to this memory how the controller which is unknown. GDDR is just DDR with laxer timings and different little things but the base is just that, the timings are also effected by the gpu itself a ddr3 is like sub 20ns for the routine while gddr5 is up wards of 200ns. Focusing of bandwidth instead of timings. I have no doubt the ps4 will push and stream textures better but i wonder about the other stuff.
It wont hurt games too much hopefully but it could hurt the ps3 competing with the xbox1 in terms of multi tasking being able to do everything that sort of all in one that xbox is pushing, fast switching between apps etc.
Memory latency when switching between apps will not be noticeable, especially since they will probably use some kind of animation when switching.
Strongly depends on the systems o/s it has to be written with the consideration with how the memory is set up. Seeing as sony has fudged up every other ps3 update forcing them to make a quick 2nd update to fix that one in 1000 chance that they bricked your system with their update i don't have much faith in that department.
I guess well see how graphics quality comes out in the countless side by side picture quality comparisons between games on both systems that review sties will post up. But i do wonder about the other things the systems can do, i guess they do run benchmarks on like their Internet browsers etc
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On August 23 2013 18:33 itsdamuffinman wrote: In which way does GDDR5 slow down the CPU compared to DDR3?
Edit: I guess it's the latency. But how much higher is it really compared to DDR3? If not much we shouldn't worry about it. High Bandwidth (DDR 2000+) RAM outperforms low latency RAM (DDR 1333) in pc games by a two digit percentage iirc. Not that it mattered much because mostly loading times are affected and CPU&GPU are the deciding factors in PC gaming.
It's partly latency the latency is massive in terms of timings on system ram and that does effect cpu performance as cpu's use latency much more then the highly parallel gpu's of today. But it's also how is the cpu linked to this memory how the controller which is unknown. GDDR is just DDR with laxer timings and different little things but the base is just that, the timings are also effected by the gpu itself a ddr3 is like sub 20ns for the routine while gddr5 is up wards of 200ns. Focusing of bandwidth instead of timings. I have no doubt the ps4 will push and stream textures better but i wonder about the other stuff.
It wont hurt games too much hopefully but it could hurt the ps3 competing with the xbox1 in terms of multi tasking being able to do everything that sort of all in one that xbox is pushing, fast switching between apps etc.
Memory latency when switching between apps will not be noticeable, especially since they will probably use some kind of animation when switching.
Strongly depends on the systems o/s it has to be written with the consideration with how the memory is set up. Seeing as sony has fudged up every other ps3 update forcing them to make a quick 2nd update to fix that one in 1000 chance that they bricked your system with their update i don't have much faith in that department.
I guess well see how graphics quality comes out in the countless side by side picture quality comparisons between games on both systems that review sties will post up. But i do wonder about the other things the systems can do, i guess they do run benchmarks on like their Internet browsers etc
PS3 performance problems are very, very well documented and the only recent OS problem with the PS3 was update 4.45. What other recent updates have bricked PS3s? If you want to be critical about a system, learn why the system is bad before going "hey, Sony did this bad thing, they'll be just as bad in the future". Need I remind you that Microsoft too has released an update that bricked some Xbox 360 systems.
The main problem with the PS3 was the Cell processor, the separate memory pools and a far inferior GPU (Xenos had unified shaders for one). The Cell processor is shit at anything that isn't crunching numbers, the separate RAM pools proved troublesome for OS tasks and games alike and the Xenos was a monster at the time. Throw in initially underdeveloped development tools and you've got a system that didn't to very well out of the gate.
But look at the PS4 today. They've pretty much given developers everything they wanted, the tools they want and incorporated what they learnt with the Cell into the GPU. They've also shown that the OS is much better than the PS3's OS by demoing a build of it at Gamescom. It seemed pretty OK to me!
You keep bringing up latency but nothing I've seen has convinced me that GDDR5 will bring the PS4 to its knees. If you want to talk RAM, Hynix's GDDR5-5500 is like CL16-18, which will hardly impact performance of a gaming console. Everything is hardware accelerated these days through the GPU so OS performance should be snappy enough in the long run. Really, its the 256bit bus that does the damage...
...but Sony thought ahead and is implementing hUMA (its obvious it supports some iteration of it despite what some sites claim) into their SoC, which cuts down latency associated with GPU/CPU memory management significantly. As for performance, its dead obvious that the PS4's GPU is basically a continuation of the Cell considering how compute focused it is.
If you want to say that latency will tank the PS4's CPU performance, can you post proof of it? Because everything suggests that Sony tried their best to create the most simple development machine on the market and has taken appropriate steps to fix hardware weaknesses. I mean its possible latency will bring CPU performance to its knees but they chose it over an embedded memory solution and they actually consulted developers this time round so I'd like to think they made an informed hardware design decision.
Off the top of my head PS3: 4.45, 4.40, 4.21, 3.70 3.55, 3.41, 3.21, 3.0 - 3.01(which resulted in a class action lawsuit), 2.40 Which is about every other update, so sorry if i have no faith in Sony programming a proper o/s to use unified memory. Hell we already know that the ps4 it takes up .5Gigs more under system reserved memory then xbox1.
PS3 other problem was the use of an emulation layer in order to use openGL because that was a design choice by sony and it's use of it's LibGCM kit which made openGL the last thing you ever wanted to use on the PS3. Not just the quarks of the cell processor, the quarks of the cell processor made it necessary to optimize very specifically but at the end of the day LibGCM set the tone for that performance.
Hynix's GDDR5-5500 is like CL16-18 Not quite at all right the chips themselves between it's own banks can have a faster response but then you actually put them on a AMD APU/GPU you get results based on that arch. There is the problem AMD's APU were designed with DDR memory in mind not GDDR which although they are based on similar architect as memory, they way they are attach and interact with the boards are very different. Which means AMD had to rework it's memory controller for sony and what results would that yield for it's CPU performance which on an AMD APU the GPU waits on the CPU to complete cycles so yes latency is a big deal. http://www.sisoftware.net/?d=qa&f=gpu_mem_latency
My argument isn't that the PS4 will be gimped out of relevance but rather the PS4 hardware and software limits itself to only being as good as the Xbox1. There is a decent probability that both systems will performance about the same at the end of the day. Which wont be day 1, xbox1 choice of eSRAM which may require special in-hour solutions to properly use hopefully not as it should be a proper cache and only require developers to be aware of it not be all that specific to design around it, it's known to work and work well ala ps3 and xbox360 although they used edram(the difference is esram is lower latency and doesn't need to be refreshed but is larger physically so die-space).
4.45 and 3.0 - 3.01 were the problem patches. But for basically all of the others, what I find on google are 99% problems with homebrew patches associated with the patch versions you listed...so that's to be expected. Like for 4.21, I get one result from Whirlpool and a billion from ps3hax.net.
Latency is not going to be an issue. Bringing up benchmarks of Llano (are you being serious, really serious here?)...what? The PS4 has HSA. That's why the GDDR5 memory decision works. If it wasn't an option, Sony would have opted for the embedded memory solution they were contemplating. But they obviously didn't.
The latency caused by copying data back and forth between CPU and GPU are minimised because of HSA. It is the huge elephant in the room. Bringing up Llano out of all architectures is hilarious...do you also think Pentium 4s are representative of modern Intel processors?
Also there hasn't been proof of the amount of RAM the PS4 uses. The minute Digital Foundry made that claim, a crapload of devs basically said "uuhhhh that doesn't sound entirely right". I mean its obvious that its going to have a bit of RAM fenced off but no one knows anything.
UPDATE: But not at launch. Microsoft's Marc Whitten just told us that devkit functionality will be added at a later date
Our vision is that every person can be a creator. That every Xbox One can be used for development. That every game and experience can take advantage of all of the features of Xbox One and Xbox LIVE. This means self-publishing. This means Kinect, the cloud, achievements. This means great discoverability on Xbox LIVE. We'll have more details on the program and the timeline at gamescom in August.
UPDATE: Don't worry—Microsoft assures us that self-published indie games won't be relegated to the wasteland of the Xbox Live Indie Marketplace. There will be one big area to access all kinds of games, Whitten says.
I'll try to keep a tally of how many consoles we sell of each at the store I work at (Best Buy). I'll be working all day selling them for both release days.
I'm sure that I'll get one eventually. No point right now, though. I don't care about any of the release games. I also would rather wait and see whether there are any technical problems. I got my 360 fairly early on last time around and basically did nothing with it until Gears of War came out.
EDIT: What may prompt me to get an Xbox One more than anything else is if there's some NFL Sunday Ticket tie in.
On November 22 2013 18:58 Atreides wrote: I would have been standing in line if one of the Final Fantasy titles was on release day. Will buy for that 100% though.
I am way behind in the AC series and don't want to skip to 4 but if I had finished revelations and 3 I'd have considered buying for that.
FF games have been disappointing lately. I'll wait awhile on it.
EPT
. Anyone else picking the system up?
