NBA Playoffs 2013 - Page 168

On May 22 2013 14:50 On_Slaught wrote:
Fair point Jibba. But then that should be reviewable as well. It's obvious he "faked" the head injury and that he was absolutely fine from the fall, making it a moot point in considering whether the foul was flagrant.

I think the strongest argument in favor was the "vulnerability" of Allen (sub point 4). I think it's easy to argue that Manu was making a play on the ball considering he initially hit Allen less than a foot from. the ball itself, between his elbow and wrist. The pulling down is what did him in.

On May 22 2013 14:53 DystopiaX wrote:

People stop them from scoring, but they do not pull them down mid leap.

On May 22 2013 15:50 cLutZ wrote:Allen created the danger himself by going for the layup the way he did. He would have faceplanted foul or no foul. His actions were reckless to say the least.

I made a post earlier. The Gist: Manu could not prevent the easy 2 without doing AT A MINIMUM what he did (without a significant risk of 3 point play). IF you want the game to be called how it was in this situation you just say "All fouls on jumping players during fast breaks are flagrant". Anything else will be totally inconsistent.

The only reason the foul was dangerous at all was because Allen apparently never has played at a YMCA, where fouls like this occur several times per game, and thus decided that letting his torso get that far ahead of his hips while sprinting and trying to finish was a good idea. Allen should be fined, MINIMUM.

Why minimum? Because if what he did worked, there is no recourse. Its not like the NBA is able to invalidate the result of the game and replay it from that point. In that sense the fine is not nearly enough, he should be suspended.

On May 22 2013 15:09 DystopiaX wrote:
The series isn't over and Memphis showed they could hang in there. In fact, the Spurs didn't pull ahead until Conley sat because of foul trouble- and the replay showed that he didn't even touch the guy when he "fouled"... a couple bad breaks both games but that doesn't mean that they're suddenly the worst team. Their lineup with more spacing (Bayless/Pondexter) really took it to the Spurs in the 4th and getting Zbo to hit shots again was huge. The scores were deceiving but watching the games made it appear a lot closer than it ended up being. The Spurs aren't going to hit that many 3s again and Bonner isn't going to hit 4, like in game 1. Shitty reffing won't hit them for 2 more games, and they've started to figure shit out.

On May 22 2013 16:18 XaI)CyRiC wrote:


I don't see how he would have faceplanted without the foul. If Manu hadn't touched him, he would have gone up and landed on his feet.




I don't think you can say that a foul should not be considered flagrant simply because it was the only reliable way to prevent a player from scoring. At some point, the welfare of players should outweigh the need to prevent a basket. This has been touched on in a Truehoop article, but at what point does fouling to prevent a basket or 3-point play outweigh potentially injuring a player?

Fouls are by definition violations of the rules. You're not supposed to grab someone to prevent them from scoring in lieu of legitimate defense. Does it happen all the time in the NBA? Is it widely accepted that you're supposed to foul a player to prevent an "easy" score to make them "earn" the points at the FT line? Yes. But that doesn't make it okay, not reckless/dangerous, or not worthy of a flagrant foul call.

I firmly believe that Manu's foul was not malicious or intended to cause injury, but it was worthy of a flagrant call. Manu "followed through" by grabbing and holding Allen's arm down while Allen was moving upwards, which he should have known would result in flipping Allen in the air. Manu wasn't making a "legitimate basketball play" as he clearly wasn't trying to block the shot or strip the ball from Allen, and instead went straight for the arm grab. The potential for injury was high, as it always is when you hit or grab a an airborne player or a player who is about to take off.

Whether or not grabbing Allen's arm was the only way Manu could prevent the basket is irrelevant because there's nothing in the rules that allows a player to do whatever it takes to prevent breakaway layups, not even in late-game situations. It's an unwritten policy of "playoff basketball", but that doesn't make it an exception to the rules that determine what's a foul or a flagrant foul. Players do not have a right to do whatever it takes to try to win, and the rules regarding flagrant fouls were written to try to define some point (however poorly) where the welfare of the players being fouled outweighs the need to stop him from scoring.

As for Allen, he clearly exaggerated and flopped. I don't think his actions prior to him hitting the ground were inappropriate, as he seemed to be trying to go up strong and catch himself as he flipped, but his conduct after he fell were inexcusable. I hope he gets fined for that as well.

On May 22 2013 16:58 cLutZ wrote:Your post, is a glowing endorsement of the 2nd sentiment of my postulate: That you make everything a flagrant in that situation.

Reality: We saw a bunch of slow motion replays that made it look like manu dragged down Allen, reality is he tugged him for a fraction of a second, in real time it was not a flagrant (especially for the refs who are sprinting behind the play, and that is the initial call). Then you go to replay, you maybe say, "Well Manu went overboard with the pull, flagarant 1", HOWEVER if you do do that, you cannot refrain from saying "Tony Allen Flopped, ejection".

On May 22 2013 16:59 PerkyPenguin wrote:Plays like that happen several times per game? Really? I would hate to play at that YMCA. Fouling people on fast breaks and potentially hurting them doesn't seem worth it in a pick up game.

On May 22 2013 17:17 XaI)CyRiC wrote:


Those types of plays do not happen all the time in pickup games, at least not where I play. Most people know not to do something that could so clearly result in a serious injury, particularly when it's a casual game with nothing on the line. If someone does try something like that, they're taken to task for it and risk getting their ass kicked for it. They certainly wouldn't be excused for trying to prevent a layup.

On May 22 2013 18:09 RowdierBob wrote:
Lol, wtf? Who was the kid at the lotto draw representing Cleveland?!

On May 22 2013 18:08 RowdierBob wrote:


Yep, it's really one of the worst things you can do in basketball because you have little to no way of protecting yourself once you're airborne.

On May 22 2013 18:08 RowdierBob wrote:


Yep, it's really one of the worst things you can do in basketball because you have little to no way of protecting yourself once you're airborne.

On May 22 2013 22:12 Jibba wrote:

I think there was a play where Lebron was on a fast break and a little guy like Nate Robinson (or maybe it was a Buck) intentionally pushed him from behind, sending him flying and almost into the backboard.

All the idiots were like "omg Lebron 260 lbs no way someone that small can send him flying that far!" except he was already in the air and even a small amount of added force from a push could've caused a lot of damage given how fast he was already moving.