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On May 28 2013 02:26 willoc wrote: We need more abigor romance fan-fiction/pictures (It's already started on the sub-reddit)! Let's try to make them super un-fucking-comfortable.
No, no, no. That would ruin the game. We need Neal & Chat fanfic!
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I think metagaming is a big deal, especially when it is reading chat for suggestions. The entire idea of D&D's roleplaying is that you are supposed to be in character. Either you can't do that and you play something close to your actual character or you make an active effort to empathize with the situation and act as if the character.
I'm fine with it in some situations, like when they forget someplace / something / someone's name that their characters obviously would not have forgotten and things like HP counts. But, a lot of times and most notably with Abigael, they've taken actions that are not only strangely out of the character they've established, but obviously influenced by chat. Just recently, Abigael + Show Spoiler +actively trying to sneak around for sneak attacks after getting mocked for not knowing how to play her class's battle mechanics, avoiding even the possibility of getting a dead ferret (even if Neal says it wouldn't happen, we were still robbed of the anticipation it might), suggesting they go back to Wizard Commander Riker's house for the glasses.
But, if they're banning people who are giving suggestions, then I think that is probably a good way to stop it.
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On May 28 2013 00:01 Goldfish wrote: That Minotaur was kind of a jerk. Who doesn't like cow puns? (Even Taurens don't mind cow jokes themselves.)
Minotaurs are jerks by nature, it's not this particular minotaur
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Its like calling him a girl.
Now, if it was a girl minotaur... it'd be kind of like calling someone a female dog.
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Canada11359 Posts
On the otherhand, if the rogue starts sneak attacking, that will be great for the entire group.
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we need a word for female minotaur. maybe minocow? i don't know. neal should get on this
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On May 28 2013 12:54 Energycore wrote: we need a word for female minotaur. maybe minocow? i don't know. neal should get on this minocow seems sexist.
Minotauress is what i usually would use.
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On Metagaming. I've made these comments publicly a few times, and I'll say it again for those of you who may have missed it.
It's so not a big deal. If the players metagame too hard, I pull them back. So far, nothing has been damaged by metagaming, and the players do a good job of focusing on their characters most of the time. I think everybody in the party is having fun. As it stands, the discussion about metagaming from the audience is actually more disruptive (causing us distress and worry) than the few cases of metagaming that have happened.
If ever something is out of line, I will put a stop to it.
To the point off pulling players out of play - I've tried that. I've done it with live groups quite a bit, and I find it damages play in the long run, so I've stopped doing if for 95% of cases. I adds realism to pull people out, but it breaks immersion, and sometimes people can be pulled away for long enough that it damages other people's play sessions and fun. D&D is an approximation of events where we hold fun to be more important than realism. If players use knowledge they shouldn't have abusively, it will be halted.
I hope that clears up some things.
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Let me start this off with a disclaimer so I don't get totally flamed. I am a fan of the show and have seen every single episode. Typically watch the stream when possible, but when unable, watch the youtube vods instead. It is one of the few shows I watch on a regular basis. With that said, I do have some criticisms. Again, this is not because I am hating on the show, on the contrary, this is one of the few shows I actually look forward to each week and quite thoroughly enjoy.
It hurts me a little to say it, but Episodes 14 and 15 were a bit disappointing for me, despite a few good highlights.
+ Show Spoiler +The Estavon story arc ending was very anticlimactic. The final boss was the mastermind behind multiple towns being raided by monsters. He was responsible for unleashing goblins, ogres and the hill giant. Hundreds if not thousands were killed and/or raped, many with their homes and lifestyles burned to ashes. All done for the purpose of furthering his own political agenda. The party was jumping through hoops, unknowingly cleaning up the mess as best they could for weeks. As the man responsible for such heinous actions, I expected a grander final battle. Instead what we got was a handful of rent-a-guards that were one shot by Vincent or two shot by other party members. Did the party even take any damage that fight? Not only that, Estavon gets ganked by his own son. All in all, it was kind of pathetic. It kind of felt like Mass Effect 3 all over again. I would have expected the FINAL BADASS BOSS fight to have been more like the Commander Riker fight, which brings me to the next episode.
The first few hours of Episode 15 were quite honestly pretty dull. The players had no direction, almost forced to follow up on the whole Riker thing for lack of something better to do. They seemed to have zero interest, not invested at all, and were merely playing along with what Neal had outlined. The Riker fight started off pretty epic and was hella exciting. Very reminiscent of the Lord Feng escape, where they are once again on the brink of a full on wipe. That is how the battles should be, not one sided slaughterfests. It should be a battle of survival, where a mistake can cost them their lives. Or a smart move could change the tide. That move with Bregor trying to push Riker onto the tentacle was a brilliant move or would have been if it worked. Unfortunately, the way the fight "ended" left a bad taste. "Give me the sword or I am going to kill you!". Then Riker proceeds to not do anything for 3 rounds straight?!? WTF?!? And in the end, he's like, "I'm just kidding!" and flees? Seriously?
He had 3 players one hit from death...yet retreats. Wizards are typically weak physically, so it would not be surprising to discover he did not have much HP remaining. But in the D&D world, Wizards have access to a crap ton of defensive spells to balance out this inherent weakness. Mirror Image, Blur, Shield, Mage Armor, Protection from Arrows, Stoneskin, Globe of Invulnerability, etc. It would stand to reason he would have at least SOME other defensive spell besides Levitate and Improved Invisibility (assuming it was the 4th level version since he spoke and the invis didn't break). My point is that he could have cast a spell that protected himself and then recommenced his attack. He cast a total of 4 or maybe it was 5 spells: Levitate, Summon Monster (not sure which level, 2 or 3?), Evard's Black Tentacles, and Improved Invisibility...surely he has more spells than that memorized. Hell he could have cast a Level 1 Magic Missile and split off one missile each weakened player and potentially 1 shot 3 players. Bregor would have been the only remaining threat once he finished off the others. Keep in mind this was likely an ambush set by the Wizard, who should have EASILY pre-prepared his defensive spells before engaging the party.
The Riker encounter is not yet concluded, so he may be planning to ambush them again at a different point...but I can't shake the feeling that Neal is pulling yet another "Fake yet not Fake" roll. On several occasions monsters could have gotten in a finishing blow on a low health player, instead switching targets at the last minute to someone with more HP, usually to Bregor. I can understand why the DM does that, but it's kind of lame. The first thing that pops to mind is when the Hill Giant had Vincent down to almost no health...but then switches to attacking Bregor, despite Vincent being the one who is actually hurting him. This feels like just another one of those situations where the DM is no longer being neutral and instead actively but more importantly obviously and blatantly allowing the players to live. This is where fake rolls is actual better. "Vincent is one hit away from death, Cliffton attacks Vincent but misses!" (while the DM is secretly grinning that he actually rolled a natural 20). Resulting in the players and viewers being kept on edge as Vincent keeps narrowly avoids death time and time again. It maintains the sense that the players are mortal and can die, yet keeps things suspenseful. This ambiance is ruined when it becomes too apparent that the DM is being forgiving on purpose. If the player TAUNTED the mob off a player close to death, that would be believable at least, instead of a monster having a sudden change of heart finishing off a player.
Some positives to balance out the negatives: The highlights of the episode for me was when the gnome pickpocketed Tudagub and he didn't even realize it LOL! I bet ya the gnome was playing possum when he got kicked off. On such a low "successful" opposing Str check roll, seemed very likely the gnome tricked him. Really looking forward to what JP is going to do next as a followup. Also want to see if Abigael gets the hang of backstabbing. It was good to see her at least try to use this attack for the first time. In AD&D 2nd Edition, that is by far a rogues most damaging attack. Would like to see Neal allow her Backstab attempts if she can hit a humanoid target from behind anytime, rather than only being able to initiate the attack from full stealth mode. Bregor had some really good rollplay moments too. Good and very convincing dialogue. The whole magic hat thing is pure win. Vincent seemed like he was struggling to stay awake the first few hours from boredom and ended up being extremely frustrated from encountering a target he couldn't hit, which was made exponentially worse cuz he was stunned for the 4 rounds puking. I have to admit, it was entertaining in a slightly twisted way. Was also kinda hoping the minotaur would get some more play time, seemed like it could lead to an interesting side story.
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On May 28 2013 11:07 Brian333 wrote:I think metagaming is a big deal, especially when it is reading chat for suggestions. The entire idea of D&D's roleplaying is that you are supposed to be in character. Either you can't do that and you play something close to your actual character or you make an active effort to empathize with the situation and act as if the character. I'm fine with it in some situations, like when they forget someplace / something / someone's name that their characters obviously would not have forgotten and things like HP counts. But, a lot of times and most notably with Abigael, they've taken actions that are not only strangely out of the character they've established, but obviously influenced by chat. Just recently, Abigael + Show Spoiler +actively trying to sneak around for sneak attacks after getting mocked for not knowing how to play her class's battle mechanics, avoiding even the possibility of getting a dead ferret (even if Neal says it wouldn't happen, we were still robbed of the anticipation it might), suggesting they go back to Wizard Commander Riker's house for the glasses. But, if they're banning people who are giving suggestions, then I think that is probably a good way to stop it.
The ferret thing got blown out way out of proportion but I do agree it was a mistake/slip-up on my end and I apologize for that. It was a heat of the moment thing. Wouldn't do it again. However it is really upsetting that every time someone in the party or myself think of something remotely clever on our own without reading chat and that chat *happened* to have mentioned something similar people think we red chat. Sometimes people come up with the same solutions separately (especially when those things make sense). I do read some of the Youtube & Reddit comments and thought it would be nice to try to sneak attack more often. It's not like it's out of character and I don't see why I wouldn't try to use my character's abilities and skills as much as possible... Or why I should avoid doing so because chat mentioned it. That would make no sense. Also, + Show Spoiler +I thought of going for the glasses because it is actually the first thing that popped in my head when Ryan saw them at the wizard's house and then when he told our characters about it... And then when the wizard was invisible ofc I made the connection that we'd be seeing him with the glasses, I just didn't randomly yell it because it was pointless at the time. Also, I always think of what Abigael would do and obviously if she heard of loot she will obsess over it (so I always take note of potential loot). I haven't even seen a mention of the glasses in chat. I have fun with RollPlay and I wish people would move on from the whole 'meta-gaming by reading chat to have a living ferret when a living ferret would have been received no matter what' thing and move on to what actually takes up the 4 hours of the show instead of about 4 seconds.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50196 Posts
On May 28 2013 13:05 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:54 Energycore wrote: we need a word for female minotaur. maybe minocow? i don't know. neal should get on this minocow seems sexist. Minotauress is what i usually would use.
wominocow....but minotauress sounds better.
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On May 28 2013 22:03 Livinpink wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 11:07 Brian333 wrote:I think metagaming is a big deal, especially when it is reading chat for suggestions. The entire idea of D&D's roleplaying is that you are supposed to be in character. Either you can't do that and you play something close to your actual character or you make an active effort to empathize with the situation and act as if the character. I'm fine with it in some situations, like when they forget someplace / something / someone's name that their characters obviously would not have forgotten and things like HP counts. But, a lot of times and most notably with Abigael, they've taken actions that are not only strangely out of the character they've established, but obviously influenced by chat. Just recently, Abigael + Show Spoiler +actively trying to sneak around for sneak attacks after getting mocked for not knowing how to play her class's battle mechanics, avoiding even the possibility of getting a dead ferret (even if Neal says it wouldn't happen, we were still robbed of the anticipation it might), suggesting they go back to Wizard Commander Riker's house for the glasses. But, if they're banning people who are giving suggestions, then I think that is probably a good way to stop it. The ferret thing got blown out way out of proportion but I do agree it was a mistake/slip-up on my end and I apologize for that. It was a heat of the moment thing. Wouldn't do it again. However it is really upsetting that every time someone in the party or myself think of something remotely clever on our own without reading chat and that chat *happened* to have mentioned something similar people think we red chat. Sometimes people come up with the same solutions separately (especially when those things make sense). I do read some of the Youtube & Reddit comments and thought it would be nice to try to sneak attack more often. It's not like it's out of character and I don't see why I wouldn't try to use my character's abilities and skills as much as possible... Or why I should avoid doing so because chat mentioned it. That would make no sense. Also, + Show Spoiler +I thought of going for the glasses because it is actually the first thing that popped in my head when Ryan saw them at the wizard's house and then when he told our characters about it... And then when the wizard was invisible ofc I made the connection that we'd be seeing him with the glasses, I just didn't randomly yell it because it was pointless at the time. Also, I always think of what Abigael would do and obviously if she heard of loot she will obsess over it (so I always take note of potential loot). I haven't even seen a mention of the glasses in chat. I have fun with RollPlay and I wish people would move on from the whole 'meta-gaming by reading chat to have a living ferret when a living ferret would have been received no matter what' thing and move on to what actually takes up the 4 hours of the show instead of about 4 seconds.
Well said! Keep being awesome. There's only drama because the show is so popular 
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On May 28 2013 22:03 Livinpink wrote:The ferret thing got blown out way out of proportion but I do agree it was a mistake/slip-up on my end and I apologize for that. It was a heat of the moment thing. Wouldn't do it again. However it is really upsetting that every time someone in the party or myself think of something remotely clever on our own without reading chat and that chat *happened* to have mentioned something similar people think we red chat. Sometimes people come up with the same solutions separately (especially when those things make sense). I do read some of the Youtube & Reddit comments and thought it would be nice to try to sneak attack more often. It's not like it's out of character and I don't see why I wouldn't try to use my character's abilities and skills as much as possible... Or why I should avoid doing so because chat mentioned it. That would make no sense. Also, + Show Spoiler +I thought of going for the glasses because it is actually the first thing that popped in my head when Ryan saw them at the wizard's house and then when he told our characters about it... And then when the wizard was invisible ofc I made the connection that we'd be seeing him with the glasses, I just didn't randomly yell it because it was pointless at the time. Also, I always think of what Abigael would do and obviously if she heard of loot she will obsess over it (so I always take note of potential loot). I haven't even seen a mention of the glasses in chat. I have fun with RollPlay and I wish people would move on from the whole 'meta-gaming by reading chat to have a living ferret when a living ferret would have been received no matter what' thing and move on to what actually takes up the 4 hours of the show instead of about 4 seconds.
I'm totally on your side, I just did not like the way jp 'condemned' you for metagaming in chat... I am enjoying your rp so don't let any of the naysayers get you down.
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On May 29 2013 02:52 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 22:03 Livinpink wrote:The ferret thing got blown out way out of proportion but I do agree it was a mistake/slip-up on my end and I apologize for that. It was a heat of the moment thing. Wouldn't do it again. However it is really upsetting that every time someone in the party or myself think of something remotely clever on our own without reading chat and that chat *happened* to have mentioned something similar people think we red chat. Sometimes people come up with the same solutions separately (especially when those things make sense). I do read some of the Youtube & Reddit comments and thought it would be nice to try to sneak attack more often. It's not like it's out of character and I don't see why I wouldn't try to use my character's abilities and skills as much as possible... Or why I should avoid doing so because chat mentioned it. That would make no sense. Also, + Show Spoiler +I thought of going for the glasses because it is actually the first thing that popped in my head when Ryan saw them at the wizard's house and then when he told our characters about it... And then when the wizard was invisible ofc I made the connection that we'd be seeing him with the glasses, I just didn't randomly yell it because it was pointless at the time. Also, I always think of what Abigael would do and obviously if she heard of loot she will obsess over it (so I always take note of potential loot). I haven't even seen a mention of the glasses in chat. I have fun with RollPlay and I wish people would move on from the whole 'meta-gaming by reading chat to have a living ferret when a living ferret would have been received no matter what' thing and move on to what actually takes up the 4 hours of the show instead of about 4 seconds. I'm totally on your side, I just did not like the way jp 'condemned' you for metagaming in chat... I am enjoying your rp so don't let any of the naysayers get you down.
Let's keep things civil. No reason to choose sides or blow things out of proportion with accusations.
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I am bring civil. Would you disagree that JP accused her of metagaming in chat and that he put on subscribers-only mode specifically because 'Abigail ruined it for everyone' ?
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On May 28 2013 21:58 Duplicate wrote:Let me start this off with a disclaimer so I don't get totally flamed. I am a fan of the show and have seen every single episode. Typically watch the stream when possible, but when unable, watch the youtube vods instead. It is one of the few shows I watch on a regular basis. With that said, I do have some criticisms. Again, this is not because I am hating on the show, on the contrary, this is one of the few shows I actually look forward to each week and quite thoroughly enjoy. It hurts me a little to say it, but Episodes 14 and 15 were a bit disappointing for me, despite a few good highlights. + Show Spoiler +The Estavon story arc ending was very anticlimactic. The final boss was the mastermind behind multiple towns being raided by monsters. He was responsible for unleashing goblins, ogres and the hill giant. Hundreds if not thousands were killed and/or raped, many with their homes and lifestyles burned to ashes. All done for the purpose of furthering his own political agenda. The party was jumping through hoops, unknowingly cleaning up the mess as best they could for weeks. As the man responsible for such heinous actions, I expected a grander final battle. Instead what we got was a handful of rent-a-guards that were one shot by Vincent or two shot by other party members. Did the party even take any damage that fight? Not only that, Estavon gets ganked by his own son. All in all, it was kind of pathetic. It kind of felt like Mass Effect 3 all over again. I would have expected the FINAL BADASS BOSS fight to have been more like the Commander Riker fight, which brings me to the next episode.
The first few hours of Episode 15 were quite honestly pretty dull. The players had no direction, almost forced to follow up on the whole Riker thing for lack of something better to do. They seemed to have zero interest, not invested at all, and were merely playing along with what Neal had outlined. The Riker fight started off pretty epic and was hella exciting. Very reminiscent of the Lord Feng escape, where they are once again on the brink of a full on wipe. That is how the battles should be, not one sided slaughterfests. It should be a battle of survival, where a mistake can cost them their lives. Or a smart move could change the tide. That move with Bregor trying to push Riker onto the tentacle was a brilliant move or would have been if it worked. Unfortunately, the way the fight "ended" left a bad taste. "Give me the sword or I am going to kill you!". Then Riker proceeds to not do anything for 3 rounds straight?!? WTF?!? And in the end, he's like, "I'm just kidding!" and flees? Seriously?
He had 3 players one hit from death...yet retreats. Wizards are typically weak physically, so it would not be surprising to discover he did not have much HP remaining. But in the D&D world, Wizards have access to a crap ton of defensive spells to balance out this inherent weakness. Mirror Image, Blur, Shield, Mage Armor, Protection from Arrows, Stoneskin, Globe of Invulnerability, etc. It would stand to reason he would have at least SOME other defensive spell besides Levitate and Improved Invisibility (assuming it was the 4th level version since he spoke and the invis didn't break). My point is that he could have cast a spell that protected himself and then recommenced his attack. He cast a total of 4 or maybe it was 5 spells: Levitate, Summon Monster (not sure which level, 2 or 3?), Evard's Black Tentacles, and Improved Invisibility...surely he has more spells than that memorized. Hell he could have cast a Level 1 Magic Missile and split off one missile each weakened player and potentially 1 shot 3 players. Bregor would have been the only remaining threat once he finished off the others. Keep in mind this was likely an ambush set by the Wizard, who should have EASILY pre-prepared his defensive spells before engaging the party.
The Riker encounter is not yet concluded, so he may be planning to ambush them again at a different point...but I can't shake the feeling that Neal is pulling yet another "Fake yet not Fake" roll. On several occasions monsters could have gotten in a finishing blow on a low health player, instead switching targets at the last minute to someone with more HP, usually to Bregor. I can understand why the DM does that, but it's kind of lame. The first thing that pops to mind is when the Hill Giant had Vincent down to almost no health...but then switches to attacking Bregor, despite Vincent being the one who is actually hurting him. This feels like just another one of those situations where the DM is no longer being neutral and instead actively but more importantly obviously and blatantly allowing the players to live. This is where fake rolls is actual better. "Vincent is one hit away from death, Cliffton attacks Vincent but misses!" (while the DM is secretly grinning that he actually rolled a natural 20). Resulting in the players and viewers being kept on edge as Vincent keeps narrowly avoids death time and time again. It maintains the sense that the players are mortal and can die, yet keeps things suspenseful. This ambiance is ruined when it becomes too apparent that the DM is being forgiving on purpose. If the player TAUNTED the mob off a player close to death, that would be believable at least, instead of a monster having a sudden change of heart finishing off a player.
Some positives to balance out the negatives: The highlights of the episode for me was when the gnome pickpocketed Tudagub and he didn't even realize it LOL! I bet ya the gnome was playing possum when he got kicked off. On such a low "successful" opposing Str check roll, seemed very likely the gnome tricked him. Really looking forward to what JP is going to do next as a followup. Also want to see if Abigael gets the hang of backstabbing. It was good to see her at least try to use this attack for the first time. In AD&D 2nd Edition, that is by far a rogues most damaging attack. Would like to see Neal allow her Backstab attempts if she can hit a humanoid target from behind anytime, rather than only being able to initiate the attack from full stealth mode. Bregor had some really good rollplay moments too. Good and very convincing dialogue. The whole magic hat thing is pure win. Vincent seemed like he was struggling to stay awake the first few hours from boredom and ended up being extremely frustrated from encountering a target he couldn't hit, which was made exponentially worse cuz he was stunned for the 4 rounds puking. I have to admit, it was entertaining in a slightly twisted way. Was also kinda hoping the minotaur would get some more play time, seemed like it could lead to an interesting side story.
1) if you read the AMA's, neal has said roughly a hundred times that he doesn't weigh the dice in any way, so claiming otherwise is obnoxious. bregor is technically just as much of a threat as vincent re: the hill giant: in full plate with more health, was doing some sort of ranger zerker rage thing at the time, and I also think there might be racial hatreds involved.
2) the comparisons you're making to video game pacing are similarly problematic. this isn't a video game, and this statement applies to both your statements about a lack of a "final boss" in the istevan questline and riker's evacuation.
a) istevan had already sent...8?... brigands after the party on the road, which failed pretty miserably. by the time he could have realized how little they'd been able to do, the party was already back in fitchview and basically on his doorstep. even then, he could have prepared better but likely didn't expect the party to just walk into his public chambers and start things off. the public chambers in particular, with all the citizen NPC's, ended up segmenting the guards and letting vincent and bregor just wail on them in small groups instead of being surrounded. there's no obligation whatsoever that it has to be some sort of epic fight; instead, the epicness should come from bringing down such a douchebag of a villain, which I would say was in evidence.
b) with riker, I think you're failing to immerse yourself in the mind of the character. he might have had a fireball or a magic missile left to throw, but he'd been shot twice before he could ready his defenses because bregor took the risks of dodging lizards and tentacles to get at him. what use is killing 1-3 adventurers if the able-bodied one snipes you out of the sky in the end? you don't walk away with your sword or your life that way. if your complaint would then be that riker is dumb and should have been stoneskinned prior to the fight, maybe he should have, but then geoff probably shouldn't have poisoned himself for 4 rounds either. the imperfections are what make conflicts interesting, because otherwise it's just "7th level wizard vs. average of 5th level party, calculate odds".
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Or.. we can just say, that we are excited for rollplay and the lack of the players doing this every single day just to amuse us is driving us insane.
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On May 29 2013 04:13 PrinceXizor wrote: Or.. we can just say, that we are excited for rollplay and the lack of the players doing this every single day just to amuse us is driving us insane. What he said
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On May 29 2013 04:27 Koibu0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:13 PrinceXizor wrote: Or.. we can just say, that we are excited for rollplay and the lack of the players doing this every single day just to amuse us is driving us insane. What he said if we had more final fantasy tactics perhaps we'd be less insane
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Looking forward to watching my first stream of this, now that I've caught up on the YT videos!
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