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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On August 23 2013 03:06 solsken wrote: You got a point, however the feeling of playing a normal MMO but bathed in syrup trumps the raised skill level imo. Raised skill level? Is that what increasing the gcd does? what if it was 4 sec? would the skill level be even higher? I don't quite see it that way. | ||
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KillerSOS
United States4207 Posts
On August 23 2013 03:52 Tachion wrote: Raised skill level? Is that what increasing the gcd does? what if it was 4 sec? would the skill level be even higher? I don't quite see it that way. Agreed, anyone who says the lower GCD in Wow made it less skill based obviously never played PvP | ||
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Vaporeon
Canada68 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On August 23 2013 03:52 Tachion wrote: Raised skill level? Is that what increasing the gcd does? what if it was 4 sec? would the skill level be even higher? I don't quite see it that way. While it might be a weak point, he's not saying 4 secs would raise the skill cap, he's really just saying that at 2,5 seconds, speed isn't an issue and focus is put elsewhere. Whether it's 2,5 sec, 4 sec or 10 sec wouldn't matter since it's all above the threshold. Now, I personally disagree with him... going with a high enough cooldown for "slower" people to pull of the combos etc they want makes it a more level playing field, but it certainly doesn't make it harder since it lowers the skill ceiling. The margin of error isn't affected since high level WoW players will punish mistakes just like a decent player will do in FF14, and higher level people in FF14 won't be able to do anything more since the speed is so slow. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On August 23 2013 04:12 KillerSOS wrote: Agreed, anyone who says the lower GCD in Wow made it less skill based obviously never played PvP I don't think ff14 is trying to be a skill based mmo. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On August 23 2013 03:52 Tachion wrote: Raised skill level? Is that what increasing the gcd does? what if it was 4 sec? would the skill level be even higher? I don't quite see it that way. If GCD is 4 sec, the game would be impossibly hard, as you can only do 62.5% the damage, heal 62.5% the HP compare to now. Now, that's not what you meant, I know that. On the other hand, it is exactly what I was talking about: GCD by itself has nothing to do with difficulty of the game. Note that I never said it raised skill ceiling, which has nothing to do with how hard things is, just the differences between players. Something can have very low skill ceiling and impossibly hard at same time, or high skill ceiling but fairly easy: for example, run 100 meter has a pretty low difficulty, as even the most out of shape people can still manage it, but the ceiling is incredibly high. My point was that GCD increases difficulty, which is a fact and not an opinion, in that if you remove the GCD and everything else remains the same, the game is much easier. I don't mind people who doesn't like GCD, just that the people who think that it's existence somehow make the game easy mode doesn't know what they are talking about. As for GCD itself, of course it's a trade off. The more move you make, the weigh of each move decreases and you can afford to make more mistakes, on the other hand, your reaction time and # of moves you make become more important. As for lower skill ceiling + higher base difficulty, it just means equipment matters more than how fact you can react, it reward grind more than raw skill, and that people can be very powerful if they put in enough time to obtain powerful gear. It is a very JP thing as they love grind + higher age group for MMO players. In addition, the 2.5 GCD is not really global, as most buff are not affected by it. It is also faster paced than FFXI. I don't see anyone have much free time during boss fight end game, and I don't see more than limited group be able to beat hardest content. PvP on the other hand... well, JPs always hate PvP and I highly doubt they would implement it if not for western customers. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On August 23 2013 04:12 KillerSOS wrote: Agreed, anyone who says the lower GCD in Wow made it less skill based obviously never played PvP Did you just say skill based and WoW in the same sentence? Please tell me you didn't. This must be a bad joke. Let me tell you how much skill I had to use on my rogue. Wait one minute, pop shadow dance, blow every cooldown known to man within three seconds and hide for three minutes. Rinse and repeat. For every class. Anyhow, the CD is perfectly fine. It allows for much more fluid and controlled combat. You don't have to worry about doing 4,000 things a minute. The depth is just as much as any other game. It's more tactical, which honestly we need more games to do this. Instead of flash reactions you should have strategies and tactics. | ||
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Railgan
Switzerland1510 Posts
On August 23 2013 05:13 Infernal_dream wrote: Did you just say skill based and WoW in the same sentence? Please tell me you didn't. This must be a bad joke. Let me tell you how much skill I had to use on my rogue. Wait one minute, pop shadow dance, blow every cooldown known to man within three seconds and hide for three minutes. Rinse and repeat. For every class. Anyhow, the CD is perfectly fine. It allows for much more fluid and controlled combat. You don't have to worry about doing 4,000 things a minute. The depth is just as much as any other game. It's more tactical, which honestly we need more games to do this. Instead of flash reactions you should have strategies and tactics. I am not sure what kind of PvP you played... I was one of the highest ranked players ever in WoW... I currently play on arena-tournament where i was rank 1 for a long time mulitple times let me show you my interface... and all the buttons I use every single arena + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/48kkp.jpg) and might I add that DK argueably is the easiest class to PvP with... my Mage interface has 1.5x as many spells in it. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On August 23 2013 05:21 Enema wrote: I am not sure what kind of PvP you played... I was one of the highest ranked players ever in WoW... I currently play on arena-tournament where i was rank 1 for a long time mulitple times let me show you my interface... and all the buttons I use every single arena + Show Spoiler + and might I add that DK argueably is the easiest class to PvP with... my Mage interface has 1.5x as many spells in it.WoW definitely takes skill and requires a full keyboard of skills to fully utilize a class/talent spec. But again, I don't think that is really the goal for ff14. I could be wrong, I only reached lvl 19 during the beta (damn you error 3102!), but it really felt like an oldschool take on MMOs with a friendly welcoming to brand new players that have never touched a game like this before. The gorgeous graphics and cool class system are the main draws for me personally. Oh, and it's Final Fantasy <3 | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
It's an oldschool MMO with oldschool combat in a Final Fantasy Universe... That's not really a public you can count in millions. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On August 23 2013 05:44 Noocta wrote: I'm really doubtful about this game staying subscription based for long. It's an oldschool MMO with oldschool combat in a Final Fantasy Universe... That's not really a public you can count in millions. Actually that's exactly the customer base MMO can count on: loyal, long history, in for the long run rather than the "flavor of the month", and most are in work age and can afford a sub. SE would rather have 1 salary man playing an MMO than 10 poor college student any day. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On August 23 2013 05:44 Noocta wrote: I'm really doubtful about this game staying subscription based for long. It's an oldschool MMO with oldschool combat in a Final Fantasy Universe... That's not really a public you can count in millions. I might be wrong but I think ff11 is still subscription based, even though it came out in 2002. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657017 Incredibly well done | ||
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`Rab
United States13 Posts
As for MMOs in general, the challenge is mainly just keeping 40, 25, 18, 10 people happy and motivated rather than the game being hard itself. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On August 23 2013 05:21 Enema wrote: I am not sure what kind of PvP you played... I was one of the highest ranked players ever in WoW... I currently play on arena-tournament where i was rank 1 for a long time mulitple times let me show you my interface... and all the buttons I use every single arena + Show Spoiler + and might I add that DK argueably is the easiest class to PvP with... my Mage interface has 1.5x as many spells in it.I'm sorry, since when did having to push a lot of buttons translate to skill? You can have all the buttons you want, that's cool, it doesn't make it skilled. You use 1/4 of the buttons in CS than you do in WoW and yet it has a much higher skillcap. Macros, UI that tells you everything that's happening, instant cast full heals, instant cast cc's, 400k+ health. Those are all things that take "tactics" out of the game and make it twitch based. There is skill in twitch games, I admit. However not near the amount of actual thought process that goes into other games. I can make a macro in WoW to pop all my trinkets and hardest hitting skills the second I hit Shadow dance to instant kill someone. That's not skill. | ||
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zz_
Sweden1022 Posts
All in all I don't think it's a big deal. But I really want EA to start now ;..; | ||
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heartlxp
United States1258 Posts
On August 23 2013 08:48 Infernal_dream wrote: I'm sorry, since when did having to push a lot of buttons translate to skill? You can have all the buttons you want, that's cool, it doesn't make it skilled. You use 1/4 of the buttons in CS than you do in WoW and yet it has a much higher skillcap. Macros, UI that tells you everything that's happening, instant cast full heals, instant cast cc's, 400k+ health. Those are all things that take "tactics" out of the game and make it twitch based. There is skill in twitch games, I admit. However not near the amount of actual thought process that goes into other games. I can make a macro in WoW to pop all my trinkets and hardest hitting skills the second I hit Shadow dance to instant kill someone. That's not skill. I think the idea here is that you have nothing to base your thoughts on while the other guy actually knows what he's talking about. I don't know where your examples are even coming from, have you ever actually done competitive pvp? Try your "macro" and see what rating you get to. BTW, what was your highest arena rating? I mean it takes no skill according to you, so you must be what, 2.5k? | ||
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`Rab
United States13 Posts
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carraway
264 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On August 23 2013 10:32 `Rab wrote: PVP in WoW came a long ways since it's release. Keep in mind it took them over 2 years before we even saw Arena s1. I guess in my mind I am going to compare FF's pvp to something more like Tarren Mill/Southshore era until SE develops something PVP centric. Never been a fan of pvp in pve dominant games, besides daoc/shadowbane I never really felt like it was done right. (Plus i get my pvp fix from sc/sc2/dota/dota2 over the years of playing mmorpgs, so my opinion is biased) That's because Guild Wars 1 hadn't been out yet for them to copy at release. That excuse doesn't fly anymore, everyone should be copying Guild Wars 1 by now. | ||
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