|
On January 16 2014 00:57 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:26 Sufficiency wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game. The ! System is crucial. Otherwise it just causes the player to talk to every single freaking NPC and it is frustrating. This is especially true if a quest unlocks only after certain condition. Quest should not be hidden. Maybe you enjoy these things, but it will turn off 99% of the player base because it is frustrating to no ends when you do not k ow what to do. See and that's the problem. Why not speak to all NPCs? Unraveling the world is the magic of RPGs and the ! removes at least 50% of the immersion and creates tunnel-vision. It's only frustrating because 99% f the playerbase is degraded so that they don't even know how to use their brains. Conditions/Follow Up Quests should mostly be handled by telling you if you return the quest. No problem there.
So you are the 1%.
MMORPG is not about story. Sorry this is just not true. If you want story go play a single player game.
MMORPG is about progression. If you make it frustrating (e.g. talk to every NPC to progress to the next quest) 99% of the people won't like it.
|
On January 16 2014 02:28 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:57 Miragee wrote:On January 16 2014 00:26 Sufficiency wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game. The ! System is crucial. Otherwise it just causes the player to talk to every single freaking NPC and it is frustrating. This is especially true if a quest unlocks only after certain condition. Quest should not be hidden. Maybe you enjoy these things, but it will turn off 99% of the player base because it is frustrating to no ends when you do not k ow what to do. See and that's the problem. Why not speak to all NPCs? Unraveling the world is the magic of RPGs and the ! removes at least 50% of the immersion and creates tunnel-vision. It's only frustrating because 99% f the playerbase is degraded so that they don't even know how to use their brains. Conditions/Follow Up Quests should mostly be handled by telling you if you return the quest. No problem there. So you are the 1%. MMORPG is not about story. Sorry this is just not true. If you want story go play a single player game. MMORPG is about progression. If you make it frustrating (e.g. talk to every NPC to progress to the next quest) 99% of the people won't like it.
How do you come up with that definition of an MMO? -.- MMOs can be very diverse. I see MMOs as a world to sink in with a character. It doesn't have to have story but it certainly can. But the single important point is: It's about you and your interaction with the world _and_ other players. And I think enough people would play such a game. Not every game needs to be a wow caliber and it can't. So trying to make more niche is actually healthy imho.
|
On January 16 2014 02:28 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:57 Miragee wrote:On January 16 2014 00:26 Sufficiency wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game. The ! System is crucial. Otherwise it just causes the player to talk to every single freaking NPC and it is frustrating. This is especially true if a quest unlocks only after certain condition. Quest should not be hidden. Maybe you enjoy these things, but it will turn off 99% of the player base because it is frustrating to no ends when you do not k ow what to do. See and that's the problem. Why not speak to all NPCs? Unraveling the world is the magic of RPGs and the ! removes at least 50% of the immersion and creates tunnel-vision. It's only frustrating because 99% f the playerbase is degraded so that they don't even know how to use their brains. Conditions/Follow Up Quests should mostly be handled by telling you if you return the quest. No problem there. So you are the 1%. MMORPG is not about story. Sorry this is just not true. If you want story go play a single player game. MMORPG is about progression. If you make it frustrating (e.g. talk to every NPC to progress to the next quest) 99% of the people won't like it.
Again this is only a problem with the wow clone mmo's. Linear progression is not necessary. Sideways progression systems can be just as effective. Hence the whole idea of a sandbox.
|
Wow has side way progression as do most mmos once they reach end-game because levels are not important as items at max level. I cant think of any mmo since early 2000 that didnt follow this except maybe guild wars. Or maybe its because i didnt understand the itemization haha.
|
I don’t have statistics and can only argue on anecdotal evidence, but a majority of players in an MMORPG wants to be "skilled" to be able to do every piece of game content (I.e. beating the game, in a sense). By "skilled" I mean high level (does not always apply depending on how easy it is to reach max level), good gear, good game knowledge and mechanical skills, and often, good people to play with. How this progresses depends on PvE level/loot design, how easy PvE is (how much organization do you need?) and how PvP gear are acquired. Interaction with the world and other players is often a mean to an end.
A lesser group of people like to focus on building guilds and roleplaying. I don’t deny that. But I am sure you will agree that they are fewer people of this category.... thus less incentives for developers to focus on.
|
On January 16 2014 02:28 Sufficiency wrote:
MMORPG is not about story.
MMORPG is about progression.
*raises goblet*
If you all don't mind I would like to take a moment here, and thank World of Warcraft for all the great things it has accomplished in the world of online role-playing games. Huzzah! Huzzah! huzzah!
|
There is another group that simply wants a realistic world which allows for a good immersion.
One of the worst things in MMO's is in my oppinion the enemy placement. Why would they stand around as perfectly split as possible? That makes no sense.
|
Because Blizzard has always expressed the view of gameplay first, logic second.
|
On January 16 2014 00:35 HackBenjamin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:31 trainRiderJ wrote:On January 15 2014 17:58 FFGenerations wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. this is called taskmaster system and has been used in games since forever. many MUDs use it and Darkfall uses it Two reasons I don't like this: Too grindy and/or exploitable by people using bots I do want to get better at the game by playing it, but I don't want that to be artificially enforced by a timesink that says I must swing my axe 100 times before getting the "swing your axe even harder" skill. So what is your solution or alternative?
Something altogether different, something you wouldn't normally see in an mmo.
Perhaps you could gain new abilities by "finding" them or "crafting" them, in a game world that puts a large focus on exploration or cooperation with other players. Maybe abilities could be tied to equipment in a sort of materia system. You could have a sci-fi mmo where to get a new gun skill you have to do an elaborate quest to find a special computer chip for your mod-able pistol.
I don't think that quests should be done away with entirely, the quests should just matter more. Imagine SWTOR where the only quests were the story or class quests, and instead of bullshit filler quests there was something else to do to pass the time, or the quests themselves were much more elaborate.
EDIT: I wish that there were more sci-fi MMOs in general. I get that it's easier to create fantasy MMOs because the game world can be 90% fields, mountains, sparse forests, and other areas that are easy to design. There's a lot more to model and build in a futuristic dystopian cityscape.
|
On January 16 2014 03:57 trainRiderJ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:35 HackBenjamin wrote:On January 16 2014 00:31 trainRiderJ wrote:On January 15 2014 17:58 FFGenerations wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. this is called taskmaster system and has been used in games since forever. many MUDs use it and Darkfall uses it Two reasons I don't like this: Too grindy and/or exploitable by people using bots I do want to get better at the game by playing it, but I don't want that to be artificially enforced by a timesink that says I must swing my axe 100 times before getting the "swing your axe even harder" skill. So what is your solution or alternative? Something altogether different, something you wouldn't normally see in an mmo. Perhaps you could gain new abilities by "finding" them or "crafting" them, in a game world that puts a large focus on exploration or cooperation with other players. Maybe abilities could be tied to equipment in a sort of materia system. You could have a sci-fi mmo where to get a new gun skill you have to do an elaborate quest to find a special computer chip for your mod-able pistol. I don't think that quests should be done away with entirely, the quests should just matter more. Imagine SWTOR where the only quests were the story or class quests, and instead of bullshit filler quests there was something else to do to pass the time, or the quests themselves were much more elaborate. EDIT: I wish that there were more sci-fi MMOs in general. I get that it's easier to create fantasy MMOs because the game world can be 90% fields, mountains, sparse forests, and other areas that are easy to design. There's a lot more to model and build in a futuristic dystopian cityscape.
I think you'd like GW1
|
On January 16 2014 03:35 Yrr wrote:
There is another group that simply wants a realistic world which allows for a good immersion.
One of the worst things in MMO's is in my oppinion the enemy placement. Why would they stand around as perfectly split as possible? That makes no sense.
Because people could complain about getting adds, or not finding mobs. Yeah, i am with you, but you have to realize that we are not the target audience for the most part. I would totally love to have another sandbox experience, but this time, with a decent combat system, which is where most of the sandbox really fail.
|
On January 16 2014 03:35 Yrr wrote:
There is another group that simply wants a realistic world which allows for a good immersion.
One of the worst things in MMO's is in my oppinion the enemy placement. Why would they stand around as perfectly split as possible? That makes no sense.
that's actually not true in TES, there are many groups of 2 and 3 and you have to fight them all at once
|
On January 16 2014 03:25 HeatEXTEND wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 02:28 Sufficiency wrote:
MMORPG is not about story.
MMORPG is about progression. *raises goblet* If you all don't mind I would like to take a moment here, and thank World of Warcraft for all the great things it has accomplished in the world of online role-playing games. Huzzah! Huzzah! huzzah!
I don’t see why this is bad. Multiplayer games are bad for telling stories, because the world is persistent and mobs/bosses/key characters respawn.
Imagine Alduin was in "Skyrim MMO". What would happen? Once you defeat him, it does not make sense that other players can defeat him too... since, you know, you already defeated him. You also can't defeat him a second time because in MMO you can't reload.
So yeah, MMO is terrible for story telling. It is not Blizzard's fault.
|
On January 16 2014 04:12 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 03:57 trainRiderJ wrote:On January 16 2014 00:35 HackBenjamin wrote:On January 16 2014 00:31 trainRiderJ wrote:On January 15 2014 17:58 FFGenerations wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. this is called taskmaster system and has been used in games since forever. many MUDs use it and Darkfall uses it Two reasons I don't like this: Too grindy and/or exploitable by people using bots I do want to get better at the game by playing it, but I don't want that to be artificially enforced by a timesink that says I must swing my axe 100 times before getting the "swing your axe even harder" skill. So what is your solution or alternative? Something altogether different, something you wouldn't normally see in an mmo. Perhaps you could gain new abilities by "finding" them or "crafting" them, in a game world that puts a large focus on exploration or cooperation with other players. Maybe abilities could be tied to equipment in a sort of materia system. You could have a sci-fi mmo where to get a new gun skill you have to do an elaborate quest to find a special computer chip for your mod-able pistol. I don't think that quests should be done away with entirely, the quests should just matter more. Imagine SWTOR where the only quests were the story or class quests, and instead of bullshit filler quests there was something else to do to pass the time, or the quests themselves were much more elaborate. EDIT: I wish that there were more sci-fi MMOs in general. I get that it's easier to create fantasy MMOs because the game world can be 90% fields, mountains, sparse forests, and other areas that are easy to design. There's a lot more to model and build in a futuristic dystopian cityscape. I think you'd like GW1
I enjoyed GW1 quite a bit, yes.
|
On January 16 2014 05:33 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 03:25 HeatEXTEND wrote:On January 16 2014 02:28 Sufficiency wrote:
MMORPG is not about story.
MMORPG is about progression. *raises goblet* If you all don't mind I would like to take a moment here, and thank World of Warcraft for all the great things it has accomplished in the world of online role-playing games. Huzzah! Huzzah! huzzah! I don’t see why this is bad. Multiplayer games are bad for telling stories, because the world is persistent and mobs/bosses/key characters respawn. Imagine Alduin was in "Skyrim MMO". What would happen? Once you defeat him, it does not make sense that other players can defeat him too... since, you know, you already defeated him. You also can't defeat him a second time because in MMO you can't reload. So yeah, MMO is terrible for story telling.
You can do the same thing over and over in Borderlands 2 or Diablo 3 and those games told a story pretty well, at least Borderlands 2 did. The point is you can have story in any game, just write in an engaging quest series and you're done. It doesn't even have to be required but it can be there.
|
On January 16 2014 03:24 Sufficiency wrote:
I don’t have statistics and can only argue on anecdotal evidence, but a majority of players in an MMORPG wants to be "skilled" to be able to do every piece of game content (I.e. beating the game, in a sense). By "skilled" I mean high level (does not always apply depending on how easy it is to reach max level), good gear, good game knowledge and mechanical skills, and often, good people to play with. How this progresses depends on PvE level/loot design, how easy PvE is (how much organization do you need?) and how PvP gear are acquired. Interaction with the world and other players is often a mean to an end.
A lesser group of people like to focus on building guilds and roleplaying. I don’t deny that. But I am sure you will agree that they are fewer people of this category.... thus less incentives for developers to focus on.
Yeah, but if there are 100 dev-teams and each one is creating a game with aiming to get 80% of the cake then something will go terribly wrong. Most MMOs coming out today are actually not that much worse than wow as the low player bases would suggest. The market ist just filled over the top with MMOs aiming at the same group of gamers.
And yes, persitent worlds are bad at telling linear stories that have a clear beginning, course and ending. You can tell good stories via quests but they will be somewhat immersion breaking. But thats the only problem and quests that are just bad are even more immersion breaking. The story that a persistent MMO can tell well is the story of your character. And with story I mean everything what happens. You killing an NPC, conversations, joining a guild and winning huge pvp wars conquering land etc. etc. A story doesn't need a narrator. Games are generally there to deliver an interactive story, not a linear told one.
|
On January 16 2014 05:33 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 03:25 HeatEXTEND wrote:On January 16 2014 02:28 Sufficiency wrote:
MMORPG is not about story.
MMORPG is about progression. *raises goblet* If you all don't mind I would like to take a moment here, and thank World of Warcraft for all the great things it has accomplished in the world of online role-playing games. Huzzah! Huzzah! huzzah! I don’t see why this is bad. Multiplayer games are bad for telling stories, because the world is persistent and mobs/bosses/key characters respawn. Imagine Alduin was in "Skyrim MMO". What would happen? Once you defeat him, it does not make sense that other players can defeat him too... since, you know, you already defeated him. You also can't defeat him a second time because in MMO you can't reload. So yeah, MMO is terrible for story telling. It is not Blizzard's fault.
I will give you an example, SWG preCU. You built cities, you opened shops, met people, formed guilds, alliances, built bases and tried to destroy enemy bases, meanwhile cantinas were full of people resting with musicians and entertainers just chatting between them and their audience, tips flying over, shoppers would or not accept special orders, giving different kind of treatment to their clients, or prices, their shops would be decorated, medics would be around to heal or buff, forming lines in adventure or war zones selling the precious buffs. Resources spot would be generated, and people would need to scout the zones, and fly over to plant their resource gatherers before other people did, renting those resource gatherers was also normal. War would rage for months, forums would become flame festivals, and in some cases, one faction could dominate the another for some time making them quit. The worlds were not just paths to level up.
If there is something than MMORPGs can do amazingly on a sandbox enviroment, is to give players the tools to create their own story, which is in my opinion way more rewarding as a player than guided storytelling.
|
On January 16 2014 07:04 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 05:33 Sufficiency wrote:On January 16 2014 03:25 HeatEXTEND wrote:On January 16 2014 02:28 Sufficiency wrote:
MMORPG is not about story.
MMORPG is about progression. *raises goblet* If you all don't mind I would like to take a moment here, and thank World of Warcraft for all the great things it has accomplished in the world of online role-playing games. Huzzah! Huzzah! huzzah! I don’t see why this is bad. Multiplayer games are bad for telling stories, because the world is persistent and mobs/bosses/key characters respawn. Imagine Alduin was in "Skyrim MMO". What would happen? Once you defeat him, it does not make sense that other players can defeat him too... since, you know, you already defeated him. You also can't defeat him a second time because in MMO you can't reload. So yeah, MMO is terrible for story telling. It is not Blizzard's fault. I will give you an example, SWG preCU. You built cities, you opened shops, met people, formed guilds, alliances, built bases and tried to destroy enemy bases, meanwhile cantinas were full of people resting with musicians and entertainers just chatting between them and their audience, tips flying over, shoppers would or not accept special orders, giving different kind of treatment to their clients, or prices, their shops would be decorated, medics would be around to heal or buff, forming lines in adventure or war zones selling the precious buffs. Resources spot would be generated, and people would need to scout the zones, and fly over to plant their resource gatherers before other people did, renting those resource gatherers was also normal. War would rage for months, forums would become flame festivals, and in some cases, one faction could dominate the another for some time making them quit. The worlds were not just paths to level up. If there is something than MMORPGs can do amazingly on a sandbox enviroment, is to give players the tools to create their own story, which is in my opinion way more rewarding as a player than guided storytelling.
Big thumbs up. In my MMO career SWG preCU was one hell of an amazing experience. Totally open world, huge planets and amazing crafting system. People made careers out of that crafting system, cities would be full with players that offered tons of different stuff. It was a real breathing econemy. Also the class system, you could study and mix tons of classes i remember. Like Doctor and Teras Kasi for example.
So good memories from that MMO, its never been an MMO like it ... Thinking back on it, it was probably the most advanced MMO. Cant think of any that come close to it now. Sure MMO today have more exciting combat but man, here you had open world PvP. It was amazing.
|
On January 16 2014 05:21 greggy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 03:35 Yrr wrote:
There is another group that simply wants a realistic world which allows for a good immersion.
One of the worst things in MMO's is in my oppinion the enemy placement. Why would they stand around as perfectly split as possible? That makes no sense.
that's actually not true in TES, there are many groups of 2 and 3 and you have to fight them all at once
It's not the number of a single encounter that bothers me, It's the spread of them. Imagine you are an enemy would you group up with your kind or wait 10m away when humans are on a hunt. That makes no sense. Not even animals behave like that.
|
On January 16 2014 07:35 Yrr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 05:21 greggy wrote:On January 16 2014 03:35 Yrr wrote:
There is another group that simply wants a realistic world which allows for a good immersion.
One of the worst things in MMO's is in my oppinion the enemy placement. Why would they stand around as perfectly split as possible? That makes no sense.
that's actually not true in TES, there are many groups of 2 and 3 and you have to fight them all at once It's not the number of a single encounter that bothers me, It's the spread of them. Imagine you are an enemy would you group up with your kind or wait 10m away when humans are on a hunt. That makes no sense. Not even animals behave like that.
dude, what.
it's like a camp. you don't have all 200 people huddle in one tent. think of it this way: you split up in groups of ~10 and then assign responsibilities. so some guys are making fire, others are sentries, while the rest are just having a hearty wank. this is where you come in and pick them off one at a time. i mean i'm not in the military or anything but that kinda makes sense to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
