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WoW 's business model is at an end. You can't get money with monthly subsceiption anymore.
These online games are ultimately built by the community, and having the free to play is advantageous because:
1. You get more people playing the game.
2. You earn at least as much money as subscription, because some people are willing to pay more.
I am sure almost all gamers know this... the issue is that investors do not. They see opportunity in replicating a business model that has worked in the past, which seems to reduce their risks... but they obviously don't see the issues with wow's business model.
In retrospect, I feel wow was REALLY LUCKY to be this successful.
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I agree with that video but things are slowly evolving. Guild Wars 2 is a HUUUUGE leap compared to WoW, a lot more action oriented and you can move around when attacking stuff and u have to actually hit the NPC's. Also u had dynamic events going on.
Elder Scrolls Online has even evolved more with its combat system, more slower and responsive system with the same combat system as found in Skyrim. It plays more like a singleplayer game. I could never play MMO's like WoW cause of its boring combat system. I need more action. MMO's like Age of Conan, Guild Wars 2 and now Elder Scrolls Online is a huge leap forward.
Also for those expecting 100% realtime stuff happening in every system u cant, even Battlefield 4 cant do it. They have a netcode that "guess" where the enemy player is. We dont have the networking capability yet for a more realtime system.
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The teso survey had this ridicilous question :
"Are you more into MMO's or more into TES?" something along these lines. This question really annoyed me because it implied MMO's and elder scrolls are somehow irreconcilable. When I think of mmo's I actually think of an open world where I have a lot of freedom to whatever I want. This is exactly how rpg's used to be and elder scrolls is no exception. I think it really shows how rotten it is the way these designers consider this game.
I would like to see an MMO that changes the focus from combat and questing and grinding and all these notions people associate with mmo's today, and back to social interaction. To me this is what makes MMO's interesting in the first place. The fact that rather than interacting with npc's I can talk to actual players. That rather than getting gold by completing quests I can sell my wares on the market. this type of thing. Rather than being confined to some small arena I want to fight with people in the open world - over things that might actually matter in that world.
There seems to be a theme with games in general, the technology gets more and more mature but the gameplay is actually regressing to a much more shallow state. Also everquest next seems to suffer from the same issues, it's tech is looking great, but how can anyone argue the premise of the game has the same depth as a game like everquest had?
I think many people feel the same, they want to have some freedom and impact on the world. This is evidenced by games like minecraft.
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On January 15 2014 02:07 fmod wrote:
The teso survey had this ridicilous question :
"Are you more into MMO's or more into TES?" something along these lines. This question really annoyed me because it implied MMO's and elder scrolls are somehow irreconcilable. When I think of mmo's I actually think of an open world where I have a lot of freedom to whatever I want. This is exactly how rpg's used to be and elder scrolls is no exception. I think it really shows how rotten it is the way these designers consider this game.
I would like to see an MMO that changes the focus from combat and questing and grinding and all these notions people associate with mmo's today, and back to social interaction. To me this is what makes MMO's interesting in the first place. The fact that rather than interacting with npc's I can talk to actual players. That rather than getting gold by completing quests I can sell my wares on the market. this type of thing. Rather than being confined to some small arena I want to fight with people in the open world - over things that might actually matter in that world.
There seems to be a theme with games in general, the technology gets more and more mature but the gameplay is actually regressing to a much more shallow state. Also everquest next seems to suffer from the same issues, it's tech is looking great, but how can anyone argue the premise of the game has the same depth as a game like everquest had?
I think many people feel the same, they want to have some freedom and impact on the world. This is evidenced by games like minecraft.
Your argument about debts is something that is often discussed and talk about. The thing is that technology is expensive but more or less mandatory.
You used to have text adventures which had dozens of paths and different conclusion. It was a very deep game because of that but if you try to have a dozen distinct and highly different endings now you have to spend large amounts of money to produce it with today's technology. So instead you get shallower and shallower games because it costs are just to high.
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On January 14 2014 15:54 HackBenjamin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 15:24 TerransHill wrote:
Biggest disappointment was the world. For an Elder Scrolls game I expected an open world with lots of stuff to explore but It cant beat WoW in that regard. The biggest weakness is that it is not actually an open world. You were playing on an unfinished build that was being used to test specific things, like how the server will stand up against swarms of nerds. Not sure if you explored too much, but if you ran too far into neighbouring zones, the world kind of abruptly cuts off because the bulk of the game is not included in this build. There is a lot of nay saying going on in this thread, and I understand if you guys don't want to get your hopes up because of IP ruining MMO's but please save your reviews for open beta at least...
Thats not what I mean. I know that you cant visit all the zones in the stress test. What I mean is that the next zone is locked until you finish the main quest in the current zone. Ebonheart pact example: I started in Bleakrock and in order to go to the next zone (Morrowind) I had to finish the quest. Thats ok I guess because its the starting area. However, arriving in Morrowind, I had to finish the main quest again in order to "unlock" the next zone.
Theres only one path to the next zone and its blocked by a gate which can only be opened after finishing the quest.
Thats highly unrealistic and spoils the immersion. It also removes alot of possibilties. It sucks because I dont like to be guided that way in an MMO and I didnt expect this by an mmo thats branded as elder scrolls.
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I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game.
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On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game.
GW2 wanted to do this but ended up not because they found that people would be confused and lost without the guidance of xp/quests.
Yes I think it can work aswell and I would like to try a game like that but reality is that with the budgets these games have they cant afford to alienate that much of there potential player base.
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On January 15 2014 06:18 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game. GW2 wanted to do this but ended up not because they found that people would be confused and lost without the guidance of xp/quests. Yes I think it can work aswell and I would like to try a game like that but reality is that with the budgets these games have they cant afford to alienate that much of there potential player base.
GW1 kinda tried doing this as well, arguably to a more intense degree than GW2. There are still quests and experience points and levels, but the level cap is only 20 and can be reached fairly quickly very early on, sometimes even in the starting zone if you try hard enough. Progression from then on was through acquiring better gear, more spells, and skill points to spend on unlocking those spells, in addition to progressing through a linear story campaign and some other side content like grinding out titles.
Of course, GW1 was more limited in scope and audience compared to GW2, with the former being a lot more PvP focused and comfortable with a very unique PvE system compared to competing MMOs like WoW.
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Also wish there would be more archaic, more back to the roots questing. Without any hand holding and overly comfortable quest logs and waypoints + marks. Imagine people would actually need to listen to npcs to find out in which next city they should go for person X. People would get mad with rush clicking through quest text and no waymarks anymore lol.
Maybe because of that many people also quite liked the story from dark souls etc.
edfit: I mean all companies right now could spare writers and drawers for their quests. They can just write BLA the whole quest text. No one would notice lol.
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On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game.
I think the closest thing that gets to this currently is Eve. They have a system in which you do not need a bad ass ship in order to be relevant to the game. There are plenty of things to do from day one. Sure, there are skills to train and what not, but I think that once you find something to do that you enjoy, it becomes irrelevant.
Most companies think that an MMO's job is to keep you coming back, and from a business model, they're not wrong. So they way they do that is to present a goal that you want to reach. The place that most MMOs fail is when people do not feel a need to log in anymore. I quit playing WoW for a while because they didn't give me a reason to log in and accomplish something. When I realized I hated dailies, and that was all that there was to do, then it was not worth my time. I recently bought another month to WoW so that I could prepare some characters for the next expansion. I know I'm not alone in resubbing to WoW for the expansion, but I also know a lot of other people that don't feel the need to resubscribe.
ESO will have to sell the fact that they are worth it. I really liked playing the beta for ESO, and if I could afford more than 2 monthly subscriptions, I would probably buy ESO, but right now it comes in 3rd in my list of MMOs. I actually prefer a subscription model to microtransactions, but every company out there feels like they need to be f2p or else they're not viable. Maybe we'll reach a point where companies are able to sell a product and feel like they're getting enough money for it, and the players don't feel like they're being shafted because they didn't buy the stuff from the in-game store. If runescape was a nicer looking game that wasn't still grid based, I think the $4.99 price point is a good one, but I also understand why these larger games can't afford to sell their product that cheap. I also notice that I'm leaving out the companies that sell a monthly subscription, to milk all the money they can, before they announce f2p. I'm just not sold on the idea of microtransactions and f2p games, except for LoL. Even then, I've only spent $50. It's the same that I would have spent on any other game at the store.
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On January 13 2014 07:37 Avean wrote:
I think it beats the combat system of Guild Wars 2 and thats a impressive feat if you ask me. While GW2 can be extremely hectic and button mashy, ESO is very slow and you can focus more on defensive part of the game.
Blocking in this game which is active is really necessary. Fighting just a normal mob you will get stunned and pummeled to the ground if he lands a hit on you. But if you block it, he will get stunned. Also some mobs with shields and when they block u will get stunned as well. And you can roll away from attacks like GW2.
In PvP this must be extremely fun. The biggest issue i had with GW2 was it was too fast, in PvP there was an explosion of particle effects filling my screen. I couldnt focus on beeing skillfull with my Warrior, it ended up beeing button mashing. Watching a GW2 stream today i see the same thing. Its so totally different than ESO. ESO feels alot more mature and good, the devs have written that they plan to make it even more responsive so looking forward to that.
So i think they have nailed the world itself which is beatiful, questing is your typical MMO but the combat system will make this game a really good contender for todays MMO's. Really didnt expect that from Zenimax, they have actually done a good job on this.
The combat you are talking about only works in PvE. I can tell you haven't tried PvP as it is currently just a button mash just like Guild Wars 2. It could just be the lag that will get fixed by release but I wouldn't make any assumptions or conclusions until it (or if it) works.
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On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example.
this is called taskmaster system and has been used in games since forever. many MUDs use it and Darkfall uses it
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On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game.
The ! System is crucial. Otherwise it just causes the player to talk to every single freaking NPC and it is frustrating. This is especially true if a quest unlocks only after certain condition.
Skill progression based on useage is a terrible system. Did you not play Skyrim? It is a super bad system which forces players to grind in monotone motion (e.g. cast Water Breathing in shallow water, take hits intentionally to level up armor, and heal youraelf around a slaughterfish to level restoration).
Quest should not be hidden. Maybe you enjoy these things, but it will turn off 99% of the player base because it is frustrating to no ends when you do not k ow what to do.
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On January 15 2014 17:58 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. this is called taskmaster system and has been used in games since forever. many MUDs use it and Darkfall uses it
Two reasons I don't like this:
Too grindy and/or exploitable by people using bots
I do want to get better at the game by playing it, but I don't want that to be artificially enforced by a timesink that says I must swing my axe 100 times before getting the "swing your axe even harder" skill.
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On January 16 2014 00:31 trainRiderJ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 17:58 FFGenerations wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. this is called taskmaster system and has been used in games since forever. many MUDs use it and Darkfall uses it Two reasons I don't like this: Too grindy and/or exploitable by people using bots I do want to get better at the game by playing it, but I don't want that to be artificially enforced by a timesink that says I must swing my axe 100 times before getting the "swing your axe even harder" skill.
So what is your solution or alternative?
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On January 16 2014 00:26 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game. The ! System is crucial. Otherwise it just causes the player to talk to every single freaking NPC and it is frustrating. This is especially true if a quest unlocks only after certain condition. Quest should not be hidden. Maybe you enjoy these things, but it will turn off 99% of the player base because it is frustrating to no ends when you do not k ow what to do.
See and that's the problem. Why not speak to all NPCs? Unraveling the world is the magic of RPGs and the ! removes at least 50% of the immersion and creates tunnel-vision. It's only frustrating because 99% f the playerbase is degraded so that they don't even know how to use their brains.
Conditions/Follow Up Quests should mostly be handled by telling you if you return the quest. No problem there.
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On January 16 2014 00:57 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:26 Sufficiency wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game. The ! System is crucial. Otherwise it just causes the player to talk to every single freaking NPC and it is frustrating. This is especially true if a quest unlocks only after certain condition. Quest should not be hidden. Maybe you enjoy these things, but it will turn off 99% of the player base because it is frustrating to no ends when you do not k ow what to do. See and that's the problem. Why not speak to all NPCs? Unraveling the world is the magic of RPGs and the ! removes at least 50% of the immersion and creates tunnel-vision. It's only frustrating because 99% f the playerbase is degraded so that they don't even know how to use their brains. Conditions/Follow Up Quests should mostly be handled by telling you if you return the quest. No problem there.
If I wanted to read what NPCs in MMOs had to say, I would buy a book. A bad one at that.
A good MMO is not an MMO which forces you to read what every douchebag in city 10293 has to say. It works out in singleplayer RPGs (though it's generally boring anyway) because those are limited and most NPCs can be made interesting. The NPCs in MMO are completely uninteresting, there's way too much content to fill with interesting NPCs.
I mean, yeah, it would be awesome with an MMO where every NPC in the game has something interesting to say, every city is planned in massive detail and every quest feels important. Then again, it would be awesome with a GTA where you can do 100% of everything you can do in real life, in a game world which is a direct 1 to 1 copy of the real world. Then again, there's something called "realism" also, it's just not feasible.
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Some people like to interact with the world and explore everything and others want to grind quests and level their char.
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On January 16 2014 01:12 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:57 Miragee wrote:On January 16 2014 00:26 Sufficiency wrote:On January 15 2014 06:09 TheFish7 wrote:
I would like to see an MMO that simply does away with experience points and the "!" quest system. Progression could be based on having your character develop their skills by using them, for example. Or base it on gear progression like the materia system from FF7 and kind of FF14. Or base it on increasing professions. Quests should be hidden, rather than in your face. Unlocking new quests could be tied to exploration, or tied to faction reputation gains, or having enough charisma skill to convince a character to give it to you. It's a shame we have to have the same damn system in every game. The ! System is crucial. Otherwise it just causes the player to talk to every single freaking NPC and it is frustrating. This is especially true if a quest unlocks only after certain condition. Quest should not be hidden. Maybe you enjoy these things, but it will turn off 99% of the player base because it is frustrating to no ends when you do not k ow what to do. See and that's the problem. Why not speak to all NPCs? Unraveling the world is the magic of RPGs and the ! removes at least 50% of the immersion and creates tunnel-vision. It's only frustrating because 99% f the playerbase is degraded so that they don't even know how to use their brains. Conditions/Follow Up Quests should mostly be handled by telling you if you return the quest. No problem there. If I wanted to read what NPCs in MMOs had to say, I would buy a book. A bad one at that. A good MMO is not an MMO which forces you to read what every douchebag in city 10293 has to say. It works out in singleplayer RPGs (though it's generally boring anyway) because those are limited and most NPCs can be made interesting. The NPCs in MMO are completely uninteresting, there's way too much content to fill with interesting NPCs. I mean, yeah, it would be awesome with an MMO where every NPC in the game has something interesting to say, every city is planned in massive detail and every quest feels important. Then again, it would be awesome with a GTA where you can do 100% of everything you can do in real life, in a game world which is a direct 1 to 1 copy of the real world. Then again, there's something called "realism" also, it's just not feasible.
It's feasible if you not waste all your ressources on voice-acting and CGI's. It's not for everyone and I completly understand if people don't want to play something like that. But I'm sure that I'm not the only one that would like to see what an Ultima/TES style game as an MMO would look like. With, as you said, only interesting quests, each npc has something important to say and a full interactive world etc.
I generally can't stay MMOs since I want to read interesting quests/npcs but I can't because they are mostly douchebags. I think that's mostly a problem with the over the top lasting level experience which forces the devs to create thousands and thousands of quests. No man in the world can make them all interesting. Reduce leveling and quest amount. Quality over quantity here.
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You know what I think a lot of MMOs are missing these days? Humor. I don't mean the game should always try to be funny, theres been a few of those and while they're amusing for a bit, are usually kinda boring. But every mmo lately have been so serious. Thats one of the things WoW did really well. Behind all the wars, despair and gruesome stories, there's always a lighthearted tone. I don't know why someone would invent a swinging cardboardman without a mouth so it can't scream when you use it as bait for huge tigers, but it sure is nice to have!
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