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On June 19 2013 03:19 JoeCool wrote:
Any suggestions on a good weapon? Seriously, I´m level 45 and I deal 30 damage despite my longsword beeing on +7. It takes forever to kill an enemy... that´s not fun :-/
Elemental it. Fire and lightning are both solid (fire bit more of a pain to get, but easier to get to +5 at least). Elemental makes all the difference unless you're using sorc/miracle enchants or get late game with buff stats
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It depends on what you are hitting, too. Some things just have absurdly high resistances against specific damage. Like those murdershells against physical, for example.
But generally speaking, if you want to do more damage, get a bigger weapon. My favorite for absurd damage is murokumo. Though at level 45 you probably won't be able to wield that one. At what point in the game are you currently?
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On June 19 2013 03:38 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 03:19 JoeCool wrote:
Any suggestions on a good weapon? Seriously, I´m level 45 and I deal 30 damage despite my longsword beeing on +7. It takes forever to kill an enemy... that´s not fun :-/ uhh... it shouldn't do that little, it should be doing four times as much at least. Is it really close to breaking? When the durability is low a debuff symbol shows up on the hud and the damage takes a nosedive. It doesn't have to be at 0 durability, it will lose damage as soon as it gets to 30% durability. It can be repaired at a smith, or if you have bought a repairbox(very useful) from one it can be repaired at any bonfire, or with repair powder. The generally considered best straight sword (balder side sword) does the same base damage as the long sword, just with better dex scaling, but since you are low level you wouldn't have stats to add scaling anyway, so the long sword would be about the same damage. The weapons are pretty balanced overall, it's more about preference of moveset/style of weapon.
He's right though. I just played a bit myself, using a longsword +7 in sens fortress. You literally do around 20 damage to the serpents, 80 with a backstab, even though the +7 longsword has like 135 base damage. Fortunately, of course, you get the lightning spear in sens fortress, which is so ridiculously much stronger at that point, it's hilarious.
Weapons are balanced, but you're not supposed to use normal weapons past a certain point unless you've leveled your damage stats.
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Elemental weapons aren't nearly as good as scaling weapons, as it does two instances of damage that get reduced by resists, whereas scaling weapons do only one instance of damage. It looks good on paper, but the way resists work mean that normal weapons will do a whole lot more damage than elemental weapons with equal attack numbers, so once you get a few extra points in your stat scaling it will be way better. Also, the titanite for normal weapons is far easier to get than the titanite for elemental weapons. You'll quickly outstrip the damage of elemental weapons just staying normal even though the attack number looks lower in the stat screen, unless you never plan to raise a stat for scaling ever and manage to get a ton of colored titanite chunks.
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But early on you are way better of just taking Vita + Endurance until they are maxed (at 40) (and after you got the stats needed to wield the weapon you want) and going elemental. Especially green titanite chunks for a fire weapon are ridiculously easy to farm in the blighttown swamp. And a lightning weapon needs to be +10 before becoming lightning anyways. Sure, at some point you will want to switch to a scaling weapon, namely when you actually got those scaling stats.
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On June 19 2013 03:49 Fyrewolf wrote:
Elemental weapons aren't nearly as good as scaling weapons, as it does two instances of damage that get reduced by resists, whereas scaling weapons do only one instance of damage. It looks good on paper, but the way resists work mean that normal weapons will do a whole lot more damage than elemental weapons with equal attack numbers, so once you get a few extra points in your stat scaling it will be way better. Also, the titanite for normal weapons is far easier to get than the titanite for elemental weapons. You'll quickly outstrip the damage of elemental weapons just staying normal even though the attack number looks lower in the stat screen, unless you never plan to raise a stat for scaling ever and manage to get a ton of colored titanite chunks.
Theoretically yes, scaling weapons are far more powerful. However, scaling weapons are terrible compared to elemental weapons until:
A) You have high stats being scaled
B) The normal weapon is upgraded to a high level.
Even with 30 dex and a lvl 10 uchigatana, your damage will be very lacking compared to a slightly upgraded lightning weapon. You need that weapon at lvl 15, and you need 40 dex. At that point though, it starts to become amazing.
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On June 19 2013 03:47 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 03:38 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 19 2013 03:19 JoeCool wrote:
Any suggestions on a good weapon? Seriously, I´m level 45 and I deal 30 damage despite my longsword beeing on +7. It takes forever to kill an enemy... that´s not fun :-/ uhh... it shouldn't do that little, it should be doing four times as much at least. Is it really close to breaking? When the durability is low a debuff symbol shows up on the hud and the damage takes a nosedive. It doesn't have to be at 0 durability, it will lose damage as soon as it gets to 30% durability. It can be repaired at a smith, or if you have bought a repairbox(very useful) from one it can be repaired at any bonfire, or with repair powder. The generally considered best straight sword (balder side sword) does the same base damage as the long sword, just with better dex scaling, but since you are low level you wouldn't have stats to add scaling anyway, so the long sword would be about the same damage. The weapons are pretty balanced overall, it's more about preference of moveset/style of weapon. He's right though. I just played a bit myself, using a longsword +7 in sens fortress. You literally do around 20 damage to the serpents, 80 with a backstab, even though the +7 longsword has like 135 base damage. Fortunately, of course, you get the lightning spear in sens fortress, which is so ridiculously much stronger at that point, it's hilarious. Weapons are balanced, but you're not supposed to use normal weapons past a certain point unless you've leveled your damage stats.
Yeah, just loaded it up and checked too, I was underestimating how much att vs def does in the game. With my lower lvl sword less than 25% of the damage goes through but with my upgraded one more like 65% of it goes through (without full scaling either). Having a high single instance of damage just lets way more damage goes through. Single instances of high damage is just much stronger at actually doing damage.
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On June 19 2013 03:45 Simberto wrote:
My favorite for absurd damage is murokumo.
Forget every argument we had. I love you :-D
Murakumo for the win !
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On June 19 2013 04:02 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 03:49 Fyrewolf wrote:
Elemental weapons aren't nearly as good as scaling weapons, as it does two instances of damage that get reduced by resists, whereas scaling weapons do only one instance of damage. It looks good on paper, but the way resists work mean that normal weapons will do a whole lot more damage than elemental weapons with equal attack numbers, so once you get a few extra points in your stat scaling it will be way better. Also, the titanite for normal weapons is far easier to get than the titanite for elemental weapons. You'll quickly outstrip the damage of elemental weapons just staying normal even though the attack number looks lower in the stat screen, unless you never plan to raise a stat for scaling ever and manage to get a ton of colored titanite chunks. Theoretically yes, scaling weapons are far more powerful. However, scaling weapons are terrible compared to elemental weapons until: A) You have high stats being scaled B) The normal weapon is upgraded to a high level. Even with 30 dex and a lvl 10 uchigatana, your damage will be very lacking compared to a slightly upgraded lightning weapon. You need that weapon at lvl 15, and you need 40 dex. At that point though, it starts to become amazing.
Those numbers are just not true. I just tested two weapons on a char with 27 dex in Darkroot. Painting guardian +13 (299) and the base lightning spear (288). The sword did well over twice as much damage with comparable attack, slightly less than that against tree enemies which are weak to spears' thrust type damage. Tree 113spear 185sword, Mage 61spear 151sword, Ninja 62spear 156sword, Cleric 63spear 157sword Bandit 53spear 131sword. Single target instances of damage do way way way better. Even if the spear was upgraded a few times, it would not have done more damage.
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On June 19 2013 04:31 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 04:02 Tobberoth wrote:On June 19 2013 03:49 Fyrewolf wrote:
Elemental weapons aren't nearly as good as scaling weapons, as it does two instances of damage that get reduced by resists, whereas scaling weapons do only one instance of damage. It looks good on paper, but the way resists work mean that normal weapons will do a whole lot more damage than elemental weapons with equal attack numbers, so once you get a few extra points in your stat scaling it will be way better. Also, the titanite for normal weapons is far easier to get than the titanite for elemental weapons. You'll quickly outstrip the damage of elemental weapons just staying normal even though the attack number looks lower in the stat screen, unless you never plan to raise a stat for scaling ever and manage to get a ton of colored titanite chunks. Theoretically yes, scaling weapons are far more powerful. However, scaling weapons are terrible compared to elemental weapons until: A) You have high stats being scaled B) The normal weapon is upgraded to a high level. Even with 30 dex and a lvl 10 uchigatana, your damage will be very lacking compared to a slightly upgraded lightning weapon. You need that weapon at lvl 15, and you need 40 dex. At that point though, it starts to become amazing. Those numbers are just not true. I just tested two weapons on a char with 27 dex in Darkroot. Painting guardian +13 (299) and the base lightning spear (288). The sword did well over twice as much damage with comparable attack, slightly less than that against tree enemies which are weak to spears' thrust type damage. Tree 113spear 185sword, Mage 61spear 151sword, Ninja 62spear 156sword, Cleric 63spear 157sword Bandit 53spear 131sword. Single target instances of damage do way way way better. Even if the spear was upgraded a few times, it would not have done more damage.
Maybe you're right, my experience with scaling weapons have been lackluster though, I got stuck on Ornstein and Smough with a +10 uchigatana even though I had amazing dex... not that the damage was pathetically low, but it wasn't amazing, and the hit you take to vitality and endurance make it a rough choice, doing 50 extra damage per attack is nice but not if ornstein oneshots you with his lunge. I did not remember damage being an issue when I did the same fight using a +3 lightning claymore, and that's with ornstein having lightning resistance.
EDIT: Should also be noted that Painting guardian sword has an A scaling, which is unusually good, most weapons will not reach A scaling until +14 or +15.
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On June 19 2013 04:51 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 04:31 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 19 2013 04:02 Tobberoth wrote:On June 19 2013 03:49 Fyrewolf wrote:
Elemental weapons aren't nearly as good as scaling weapons, as it does two instances of damage that get reduced by resists, whereas scaling weapons do only one instance of damage. It looks good on paper, but the way resists work mean that normal weapons will do a whole lot more damage than elemental weapons with equal attack numbers, so once you get a few extra points in your stat scaling it will be way better. Also, the titanite for normal weapons is far easier to get than the titanite for elemental weapons. You'll quickly outstrip the damage of elemental weapons just staying normal even though the attack number looks lower in the stat screen, unless you never plan to raise a stat for scaling ever and manage to get a ton of colored titanite chunks. Theoretically yes, scaling weapons are far more powerful. However, scaling weapons are terrible compared to elemental weapons until: A) You have high stats being scaled B) The normal weapon is upgraded to a high level. Even with 30 dex and a lvl 10 uchigatana, your damage will be very lacking compared to a slightly upgraded lightning weapon. You need that weapon at lvl 15, and you need 40 dex. At that point though, it starts to become amazing. Those numbers are just not true. I just tested two weapons on a char with 27 dex in Darkroot. Painting guardian +13 (299) and the base lightning spear (288). The sword did well over twice as much damage with comparable attack, slightly less than that against tree enemies which are weak to spears' thrust type damage. Tree 113spear 185sword, Mage 61spear 151sword, Ninja 62spear 156sword, Cleric 63spear 157sword Bandit 53spear 131sword. Single target instances of damage do way way way better. Even if the spear was upgraded a few times, it would not have done more damage. Maybe you're right, my experience with scaling weapons have been lackluster though, I got stuck on Ornstein and Smough with a +10 uchigatana even though I had amazing dex... not that the damage was pathetically low, but it wasn't amazing, and the hit you take to vitality and endurance make it a rough choice, doing 50 extra damage per attack is nice but not if ornstein oneshots you with his lunge. I did not remember damage being an issue when I did the same fight using a +3 lightning claymore, and that's with ornstein having lightning resistance. EDIT: Should also be noted that Painting guardian sword has an A scaling, which is unusually good, most weapons will not reach A scaling until +14 or +15.
Indeed, it's just what was available on my char that wasn't at full scaling yet that had a comparable attack stat on that char. The scaling is high, but base damage on that sword below average even for curved swords and I didn't have high dex yet though. The only number that matters for the comparison though is the similar attack stat.
The main point of the comparison is about single vs dual instances of damage with similar char attack stat. Because the amount of damage blocked from resistances has diminishing returns, damage conversely has increasing returns the higher it gets, a lot higher percentage of the damage will get through. Just like when I first tested my unupgraded painting guardian sword vs the upgraded one, with elemental weapons have two low instances of damage(both get reduced ~21% of each went through), the majority of the damage gets reduced, compared to a single instance of damage (~%50+), where the majority of the damage went through (if I had full dex the increasing return effect would be even more pronounced, regardless though 50%+ total attack->damage was far more than twice as strong as 21% total attack->damage).
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Another fun thing you can do with scaling weapons over elementals is put stuff like the crystal magic weapon buff on em (at least they stacked the last time I played on PC like a year ago) for a load of bonus damage. Only problem is it's pretty stat reliant if you want a lot of damage because I think the ideal cataylst was the Tin cataylst you get from killing Logan so not only do you need a lot of your primary stat for the weapon scaling but also around ~40 Int for best results on the MagicAdj on the catalyst. Pretty snazzy when you're around level 100+ or so though.
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In my experience scaling out does elemental weapons at +15, and when you get good at the game you can get a +15 really early. Also buffing weapons makings scaling so much stronger. Tin catalyst is the strongest catalyst for 32 int (though the MagicAdj is 20 points stronger at 40), and you only need 25 for crystal magic weapon, so if you are going for that buff then you can feel free to hold off those extra 8 int points.
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Thank you all for your great advice! I missed the lightning spear when I cleared Sen´s Fortress for the first time, but went back later and got it. The whole game is waaaay smoother now, I still do not do as much damage as my friend with his queelag-sword but it´s a huge improvement compared to the longsword.
Now we´re stuck at Ornstein & Smough, these guys are tough! My strategyis to kill Smough - despite beeing more difficult than the other way around - first because Ornsteins armor looks better. And I want that spear.^^
Edit: Sogh and Orni are dead, what an incredible fight.
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To bump the topic:
Anyone agree that the Four Kings is a dumb fight? I don't understand what they were thinking when they designed it.
I mean, both times I've beaten it, I've done it in a pretty tanky fashion, first time in full havel gear, this time in ornstein gear... Run at boss, two hand weapon, ignore the bosses movements completely and wack away, heal to full as soon as it dies and wait for next. The boss is SO easy this way, and all other tactics seem specifically designed to be worse.
1. If you stay at range, they will use their imba magic missile which is borderline undodgeable and does good damage even through your shield. It lasts for 15 damn seconds and homes in on you like crazy. You never want them to ever cast this, but there's sometimes not much you can do, if the boss spawns too far away, you can't run to them in time.
2. Since you need to kill the kings FAST so that you're not gangraped, you need to stay close and attack constantly... however, the kings have two attacks which punish you hard for staying close (the grab and the aoe explosion)... not only that, the aoe explosion is cast so fast that you can barely dodge it. The immediate tell isn't obvious, which might make you roll sideways giving you too little time to back off... even below 50% weight and rolling twice, you will still get hit. One tactic (as a tanky dude) is to just ignore this move and tank it close to the boss since that lets you get back into the fight faster, but since the grab has the exact same attack animation and takes ages (giving other kings time to spawn), this is a dangerous tactic.
I hope Dark Souls 2 has better handling for bosses like this, where you can take your time and really learn their tells to be able to perfect bosses. I find Smough and Ornstein mostly acceptable because there's just two of them and you have ample time and space... the four kings though? Were they literally imagining that people would fight the boss and commonly fight several of the kings at once? Because I just can't imagine that being possible with the insane range and amazing magic missle spell they have. In S&O, you can beat the boss without using lock-on by being fast and keeping track of them, dodging their attacks and finding openings... against 4 kings, that's probably impossible.
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Can't the AoE be rolled through with proper timing ?
Also, going for ranged sorceries is definitely viable and not really harder than tanking. Spells just hit so goddamn hard...
You are right on the harder way being to fight "properly" though, takes too long and it gets messy pretty quick. Whereas with the technique you described, you may even see a fifth king, which is a pretty good wtf moment ^^
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On June 25 2013 19:34 Cynry wrote:
Can't the AoE be rolled through with proper timing ?
Also, going for ranged sorceries is definitely viable and not really harder than tanking. Spells just hit so goddamn hard...
You are right on the harder way being to fight "properly" though, takes too long and it gets messy pretty quick. Whereas with the technique you described, you may even see a fifth king, which is a pretty good wtf moment ^^
I think everything can be rolled through, technically, if it doesn't last for too many frames... over my tries, I've never once been able to dodge the aoe though, I think your timing has to be crazy crisp.
As for a fifth king, you can apparently even fight five kings at once if you stall for long enough... the first four spawn at regular intervals, but if the fight drags on, more start to spawn from what I hear.
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Well, I recall nailing it a few times but it still was a bitch to get. 2 shieldless playthrough helped a lot ^^
\brag
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To be honest, The Four Kings instantly jumped higher on my list of great bossfights when I realised its way better to just get naked and roll dodge everything instead of making it a dps race.
Their grab attack is still the hardest thing to avoid in this game, though.
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On June 25 2013 19:48 Altsa wrote:
To be honest, The Four Kings instantly jumped higher on my list of great bossfights when I realised its way better to just get naked and roll dodge everything instead of making it a dps race.
Their grab attack is still the hardest thing to avoid in this game, though.
I tried to do that (I never went naked, but honestly the difference between 25% and 50% roll is not that huge, at least when it comes to invincibility frames). However, with just a furysword +5 and barely any str and dex, the damage just wasn't enough if I focused on dodging. It seems the other kings have a tendency not to attack if you're all up in one kings grill, but it still happens... and it sucks so bad to roll nicely out from under an attack, only to be stabbed in the back by another dude.
BTW, shield-less playthrough sounds like a kind of fun idea, must be crazy hard in some places though, I'm a shield-addict.
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EPT
