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On April 08 2016 10:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Yeah, she changed Safana because she was "sexist".She called the original BG sexist too.BG1 characters were varied, Safana was manipulative, using her charms to get what she wanted.
Not really what i would describe as sexist but i fear that future female representation of women in RPGs will be based more around Shar-teel at the expense of characterisations like Safana or naive women like Aerie in BG2.Only strong, independent women will be allowed...Hows that for "diversity"?
I've seen this argument a few times but I've also read a lot from people who have actually play the game is that she is pretty much the exact same... So yeah, not sure about the validity of that one...
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There seems to be confusion about the drama all over. I've read quite a bit and noticed that the whole uproar started not because of the trans character, but what one of the writers said in one of the interviews and posted on beamdog forums. Her goal was to push the idea of diversity, because white, straight males are boring characters to write, BG1 has sexist elements and if someone doesn't like what they're doing, then "too bad". The actual quality of the expansion and characters added to this. That attitude caused the whole drama, I think that everyone remembers how the marketing for John Romero's Daikatana ended up ("John Romero is about to make you his bitch" and "Suck it up"). Well, people don't like that sort of attitude, so if you want to push forward an idea, don't be an asshole about it and if you do, your game better be of top quality. That's simple as that and that's where Beamdog failed in my opinion.
Now, moving away from the drama I wondered about this bit that white, straight males are boring charaters to write. From my experience of playing pen and paper RPGs there's a lot of players, who like to make their characters unique. Some years back, a lot of players really wanted to play drows, each of them had their reason why they're outside Underdark and some had reasons why they have good alignment. Nowadays similar thing is happening with dragonborn everywhere (or dragonporn, as I like to call them - makes sesne If you think, how they're "made"). To me it's a cheap shortcut, to make character unique. Race, gender and sexuality does not make character unique, his/her (its?) background and goals do. I can come up with so many unique character backgrounds (simplified examples - was sold to slavery, killed his/her parents by accident, decided to give up on his deity, lost left eye in a duel, etc.). It doesn't matter what race and gender that character has, it's his/her tale that will be remembered.
That's why I'm not against diverse set of races, genders and sexualities, but I don't need it in order to feel that a character is unique.
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On April 08 2016 17:53 Tuth wrote:
There seems to be confusion about the drama all over. I've read quite a bit and noticed that the whole uproar started not because of the trans character, but what one of the writers said in one of the interviews and posted on beamdog forums. Her goal was to push the idea of diversity, because white, straight males are boring characters to write, BG1 has sexist elements and if someone doesn't like what they're doing, then "too bad". The actual quality of the expansion and characters added to this. That attitude caused the whole drama, I think that everyone remembers how the marketing for John Romero's Daikatana ended up ("John Romero is about to make you his bitch" and "Suck it up"). Well, people don't like that sort of attitude, so if you want to push forward an idea, don't be an asshole about it and if you do, your game better be of top quality. That's simple as that and that's where Beamdog failed in my opinion.
Now, moving away from the drama I wondered about this bit that white, straight males are boring charaters to write. From my experience of playing pen and paper RPGs there's a lot of players, who like to make their characters unique. Some years back, a lot of players really wanted to play drows, each of them had their reason why they're outside Underdark and some had reasons why they have good alignment. Nowadays similar thing is happening with dragonborn everywhere (or dragonporn, as I like to call them - makes sesne If you think, how they're "made"). To me it's a cheap shortcut, to make character unique. Race, gender and sexuality does not make character unique, his/her (its?) background and goals do. I can come up with so many unique character backgrounds (simplified examples - was sold to slavery, killed his/her parents by accident, decided to give up on his deity, lost left eye in a duel, etc.). It doesn't matter what race and gender that character has, it's his/her tale that will be remembered.
That's why I'm not against diverse set of races, genders and sexualities, but I don't need it in order to feel that a character is unique.
Not really. That interview was from August 2015, way before this release. That was brought on after people complained about LGBT content to add fire to the argument.
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Did people also complain about herterosexual normative content?
I smell hypocrisy.
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On April 08 2016 19:35 Artisreal wrote:
Did people also complain about herterosexual normative content?
I smell hypocrisy.
They complained about one joke character that sounds like a modern day stoner.
The rest was all LGBT/SJW/GG based complaints. Some even went so far to accuse that because SoD has refugees from the war their writers are also using that to promote their views on real refugee crisis in Syria/EU.
And one line of dialogue was accused of mansplaining when dialogue is same if your character is female lol. Even the original idiot that posted the screenshot and complained about it had a main character that was a female (or gave his male character a female portrait)...
To me the whole affair looked like I stepped into a Twilight Zone episode or something.
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On April 08 2016 18:58 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 17:53 Tuth wrote:
There seems to be confusion about the drama all over. I've read quite a bit and noticed that the whole uproar started not because of the trans character, but what one of the writers said in one of the interviews and posted on beamdog forums. Her goal was to push the idea of diversity, because white, straight males are boring characters to write, BG1 has sexist elements and if someone doesn't like what they're doing, then "too bad". The actual quality of the expansion and characters added to this. That attitude caused the whole drama, I think that everyone remembers how the marketing for John Romero's Daikatana ended up ("John Romero is about to make you his bitch" and "Suck it up"). Well, people don't like that sort of attitude, so if you want to push forward an idea, don't be an asshole about it and if you do, your game better be of top quality. That's simple as that and that's where Beamdog failed in my opinion.
Now, moving away from the drama I wondered about this bit that white, straight males are boring charaters to write. From my experience of playing pen and paper RPGs there's a lot of players, who like to make their characters unique. Some years back, a lot of players really wanted to play drows, each of them had their reason why they're outside Underdark and some had reasons why they have good alignment. Nowadays similar thing is happening with dragonborn everywhere (or dragonporn, as I like to call them - makes sesne If you think, how they're "made"). To me it's a cheap shortcut, to make character unique. Race, gender and sexuality does not make character unique, his/her (its?) background and goals do. I can come up with so many unique character backgrounds (simplified examples - was sold to slavery, killed his/her parents by accident, decided to give up on his deity, lost left eye in a duel, etc.). It doesn't matter what race and gender that character has, it's his/her tale that will be remembered.
That's why I'm not against diverse set of races, genders and sexualities, but I don't need it in order to feel that a character is unique. Not really. That interview was from August 2015, way before this release. That was brought on after people complained about LGBT content to add fire to the argument.
The post by Amber Scott on Beamdog forums was from August 2015, which was also used as an argument. The article on Kotaku was posted on April 1st 2016.
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On April 08 2016 21:13 Tuth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 18:58 -Archangel- wrote:On April 08 2016 17:53 Tuth wrote:
There seems to be confusion about the drama all over. I've read quite a bit and noticed that the whole uproar started not because of the trans character, but what one of the writers said in one of the interviews and posted on beamdog forums. Her goal was to push the idea of diversity, because white, straight males are boring characters to write, BG1 has sexist elements and if someone doesn't like what they're doing, then "too bad". The actual quality of the expansion and characters added to this. That attitude caused the whole drama, I think that everyone remembers how the marketing for John Romero's Daikatana ended up ("John Romero is about to make you his bitch" and "Suck it up"). Well, people don't like that sort of attitude, so if you want to push forward an idea, don't be an asshole about it and if you do, your game better be of top quality. That's simple as that and that's where Beamdog failed in my opinion.
Now, moving away from the drama I wondered about this bit that white, straight males are boring charaters to write. From my experience of playing pen and paper RPGs there's a lot of players, who like to make their characters unique. Some years back, a lot of players really wanted to play drows, each of them had their reason why they're outside Underdark and some had reasons why they have good alignment. Nowadays similar thing is happening with dragonborn everywhere (or dragonporn, as I like to call them - makes sesne If you think, how they're "made"). To me it's a cheap shortcut, to make character unique. Race, gender and sexuality does not make character unique, his/her (its?) background and goals do. I can come up with so many unique character backgrounds (simplified examples - was sold to slavery, killed his/her parents by accident, decided to give up on his deity, lost left eye in a duel, etc.). It doesn't matter what race and gender that character has, it's his/her tale that will be remembered.
That's why I'm not against diverse set of races, genders and sexualities, but I don't need it in order to feel that a character is unique. Not really. That interview was from August 2015, way before this release. That was brought on after people complained about LGBT content to add fire to the argument. The post by Amber Scott on Beamdog forums was from August 2015, which was also used as an argument. The article on Kotaku was posted on April 1st 2016.
Article means shit, it was just reposting what is going on.
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On April 08 2016 19:35 Artisreal wrote:
Did people also complain about herterosexual normative content?
I smell hypocrisy.
It's normal to complain about bad writing.
Seriously what does "I created my new name from syllables of different languages.All have special meaning to me; it is the truest reflection of who I am.." even mean?
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Boring that if a game does not have a transgender character, non-heterosexual relationships and some seductive characters it is instantly caracterised as sexist ... so retarded. Baldur Gates was one of my favorite game back when I was a kid, and I never thought, even remotly, about gender equality while playing it : it is just not the subject.
I don't understand why game developpers feel they need to have an agenda while writing characters and storyline, for fuck sake stop trying to shove your belief in other's throat.
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On April 08 2016 19:35 Artisreal wrote:
Did people also complain about herterosexual normative content?
I smell hypocrisy.
Safena, the overall story arch, the shitty interface (they managed to make a 16 year old game look worse somehow - at least they were smart enough to allow people to disable it), the multiple bugs which made multiplayer non-existant despite being touted as a big part of the game, breaking every single mod out there - do you want me to go on about what else was complained about?
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On April 08 2016 22:27 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 19:35 Artisreal wrote:
Did people also complain about herterosexual normative content?
I smell hypocrisy. Safena, the overall story arch, the shitty interface (they managed to make a 16 year old game look worse somehow - at least they were smart enough to allow people to disable it), the multiple bugs which made multiplayer non-existant despite being touted as a big part of the game, breaking every single mod out there - do you want me to go on about what else was complained about?
Safana quality is your personal opinion and so is story of the game (don't write spoilers), I don't think UI is worse, they did a lot of good with it.
MP bugs are not nice but they will be fixed, it is not design features.
Mods always break when new stuff is made.
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On April 08 2016 23:00 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 22:27 Ghostcom wrote:On April 08 2016 19:35 Artisreal wrote:
Did people also complain about herterosexual normative content?
I smell hypocrisy. Safena, the overall story arch, the shitty interface (they managed to make a 16 year old game look worse somehow - at least they were smart enough to allow people to disable it), the multiple bugs which made multiplayer non-existant despite being touted as a big part of the game, breaking every single mod out there - do you want me to go on about what else was complained about? Safana quality is your personal opinion and so is story of the game (don't write spoilers), I don't think UI is worse, they did a lot of good with it. MP bugs are not nice but they will be fixed, it is not design features. Mods always break when new stuff is made.
Yes, all of it is my personal opinion. All of it is also things people other than me have complained about - if you noticed I replied to a comment asking if people had complained about heteronormative content as well - which obviously they have. The way you, Plansix and others have tried to discredit all criticism of the game as purely trans-phobic is disgraceful.
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I never did that. I have been very clear on that specific subject. You seem very set on arguing with a version of me you have created in your head.
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Nah, I would much prefer not to have to correct the obvious errenous statements you repeatedly make, so if you'll stop doing that, I'll stop arguing with you.
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On April 08 2016 23:28 Ghostcom wrote:
Nah, I would much prefer not to have to correct the obvious errenous statements you repeatedly make, so if you'll stop doing that, I'll stop arguing with you.
I'm all set, your approval doesn't mean that much to me. But keep using me as that SJW boogeyman you want to argue against, I don't mind.
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On April 08 2016 23:14 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 23:00 -Archangel- wrote:On April 08 2016 22:27 Ghostcom wrote:On April 08 2016 19:35 Artisreal wrote:
Did people also complain about herterosexual normative content?
I smell hypocrisy. Safena, the overall story arch, the shitty interface (they managed to make a 16 year old game look worse somehow - at least they were smart enough to allow people to disable it), the multiple bugs which made multiplayer non-existant despite being touted as a big part of the game, breaking every single mod out there - do you want me to go on about what else was complained about? Safana quality is your personal opinion and so is story of the game (don't write spoilers), I don't think UI is worse, they did a lot of good with it. MP bugs are not nice but they will be fixed, it is not design features. Mods always break when new stuff is made. Yes, all of it is my personal opinion. All of it is also things people other than me have complained about - if you noticed I replied to a comment asking if people had complained about heteronormative content as well - which obviously they have. The way you, Plansix and others have tried to discredit all criticism of the game as purely trans-phobic is disgraceful.
Safana complaints are also based on anti SJW narrative because people think she was changed to be more SJW like.
The rest is not anwers to the original question asked by Artisreal except overall story. And there is not game in history that didn't have people complain about something like that. His question was (I am guessing and he can correct me if I am wrong) did a big group of people complain about non LGBT/SJW/GG content in the game?
I personally have not seen that.
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On April 08 2016 23:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 23:28 Ghostcom wrote:
Nah, I would much prefer not to have to correct the obvious errenous statements you repeatedly make, so if you'll stop doing that, I'll stop arguing with you. I'm all set, your approval doesn't mean that much to me. But keep using me as that SJW boogeyman you want to argue against, I don't mind.
To be fair, you're kind of our resident SJW by default Plansix. Not many true SJW on TL, so bear their standard high and proud!
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Without having played any of SoD, the two things that make me really question the quality and mindset of the writing are the Safana statement and the gamersgate refrence.
It's fine to create new content, including characters of various sexual characteristics and all that, but rewriting specific old characters and bringing in controversial internet catchphrases to world of Baldur's Gate just seem like the writers had their priorities set in somewhere else than the quality of the game itself.
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As a general reply to lots of the posts in the thread, I just want to say that if a writer thinks that their character must have a specific sexual orientation or identity, or race or ethnic background or gender or whatever - because otherwise "writing for them is boring" -
... then they are probably a shitty writer.
Personality isn't solely based on these factors. A white male can have a million different personalities. So could a Muslim half-dragon transsexual. It's really irrelevant.
If a storywriter wants to write in a character who is trans that's great, but to think that this automatically makes their character "interesting" on any level is stupid.
edit: going back up and reading, Tuth did a good job of touching on this opinion as well.
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Part of making interesting characters is having them from diverse backgrounds and world views. When they say that “white male” characters are boring, it’s that they are boring in a sea of other white male characters. That the way to give them texture is to have other people in the world of diverse backgrounds beyond just elves and dwarves. And within that, they can write more variance between dwarves, elves and other groups. Background is part of any character, because the author needs to know where they obtained their view on the world.
I do think the phrase “white, straight male characters are boring to write” is a bit hyperbolic however. Its just hard to make them stand out if there are 7 of them in the main cast.
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EPT
