EPTEven if we assume he is telling the truth; hacking could have been under control whenever it was that he told you that statement.
Path of Exile - Page 511
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
Even if we assume he is telling the truth; hacking could have been under control whenever it was that he told you that statement. | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On October 14 2013 04:59 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Too bad your source of them saying hacking is under control is a joke. Something one of the top racers told you a while ago, seriously? If you only interest is "winning" by proving that GGG are liars then there is no point having a conversation with you anyway. Even if we assume he is telling the truth; hacking could have been under control whenever it was that he told you that statement. You didn't read the thread that was posted here earlier obviously. And how very generous of you to assume that no top racer is using maphacks, not a single one of them. I don't believe that for a second. Funnily enough, all the top racers posting in cwu's thread basically agreed with him, but I'm glad you clowns have so much more insight into maphacking and racing than all of them. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On October 14 2013 05:03 SlixSC wrote: You didn't read the thread that was posted here earlier obviously. And how very generous of you to assume that no top racer is using maphacks, not a single one of them. I don't believe that for a second. It was closed before I had the chance so no, I didn't read it. Do I believe that no one is cheating? I'm sure somebody is cheating, but that doesn't change the fact that posting about it on the official forums doesn't lead anywhere and GGG are liars when to my knowledge they've never said cheating is under control. When you ban maphackers in a free to play game they just make new accounts. You're talking about a fresh start event where having a new account doesn't even matter as well. When you patch out the current map hack hackers make a new one. If you think GGG is ever going to get the game 100% hack free you have unrealistic expectations and you're always going to be disappointed. Having hacking under control doesn't mean there is none of it. | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On October 14 2013 05:06 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: It was closed before I had the chance so no, I didn't read it. Do I believe that no one is cheating? I'm sure somebody is cheating, but that doesn't change the fact that posting about it on the official forums doesn't lead anywhere. And sitting around doing nothing has an even lower success rate = 0. The moment GGG stop ignoring top racers, that will be the moment they will try and work this out with GGG in private. I know many of the top racers and GGG don't pay attention to any of the prominent issues in the racing scene. Again, understandable because GGG is an indie developer, but if GGG doesn't do anything about it, the community will have to. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
On October 14 2013 04:55 SlixSC wrote: Really? Then how do you explain the fact that he was quoting me and not the person who's statement directly contradicts his statement? Two people can both disagree with you, yet be logically inconsistent with each other. Since they are not the same person it is not necessary for them to be logically consistent with each other. In laymen's terms, they disagree with you in different ways. On October 14 2013 04:55 SlixSC wrote: It's incosequential to my argument either way. Either GGG can do something and they are not, which makes them liars, or they can't do something and simply claim they can, which still makes them liars. It's irrelevant to my argument. I've won both ways. You are setting up your argument so you can't be wrong. You are eliminating the third case: GGG can do something and is in the long-term process of doing so. Hackers will never go away; it's a never-ending battle. It is most likely that they are in a continuous process of trying to deal with hackers and RMT. One of your cases doesn't make sense anyways; if they could do something and they aren't, that would be completely inconsistent with everything GGG has shown over the years. Your second case could be true. On October 14 2013 04:55 SlixSC wrote: I don't have to prove that they are or are not doing something. I'm not the person making the positive claim, you guys are asserting that GGG have it under control, despite having not acted at all on this issue for more than a year now. As a matter of logic the person making the positive claim has the burden of proof (that person isn't me). Lmfao. You don't have to prove that they are or are not doing something? ??? You are claiming that GGG is doing nothing about "maphackers". You are assuming that they are already guilty. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Burden of proof is on the accusers? etc. You state that GGG hasn't acted on this "issue" for more than a year, yet if it is not 100% conclusive then it is completely and totally unfair to ban these accused people. | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On October 14 2013 05:09 EchelonTee wrote: You state that GGG hasn't acted on this "issue" for more than a year, yet if it is not 100% conclusive then it is completely and totally unfair to ban these accused people. And that is the point. It doesn't matter if they are working on it. They aren't communicating with the racing community. There were maphacking complaints for months and years now and whenever people brought up the issue GGG was very dismissive and said "we got it under control" and yet... and yet nobody was ever banned. So, in your eyes, what is the community supposed to do? Just pray to god that GGG is actually working on it, despite not having done anything about it for over a year now? That is delusional, why would the community be ok with cheaters winning races for such a long period of time based on the mere assumption that GGG might be trying to solve the problem, even though they never even acknowledged it in the first place. You are basically saying "shutup community, trust the developers." But the developers have a terrible track record of banning maphackers in their game, the sum total being zero. So why would we grant trust to someone with such a terrible track record? How is that assumption justified in any way? | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
you responded to a guy saying 'what are they supposed to do if they can't prove someone's hacking' with 'they're incompetent for not being able to find out' that's the argument i have with you take a look at why warden is 'complicated' now imagine a company the size of ggg, with the legal means of ggg (do they even exist at all?) trying to pass off a potential lawsuit/bad press generator as good for the game, in order to get to cheating users you're basically arguing they're incompetent because they don't act with a mob mentality (we, the almighty community, are telling you this is thus! now get to it!) i mean, i even pointed out where you could accuse them of incompetence, the part where they load the entire map into the user's ram, which enables maphacks in the first place and is bad design this is not to say those people aren't actually hacking, i didn't get to see the evidence but if they're not streaming, have inconsistent results linked to their streaming and so on they probably are but you need to understand the concept of 'conclusive evidence' and ggg's perspective/liability if they happen to be proven wrong i don't particularly care one way or another for the ad hominem attacks, they tell more about you than the people you're supposed to somehow be insulting anyway~_~ | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
The name calling from Slix is annoying but is probably because this situation is personally relevant to him. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
If there is anything other than circumstancial evidence it would be far more of a case against these players. For now, it is a bit early to point fingers at named persons. Streaming is the best guarantee against cheating anyway! Make the players stream prized events and the cheating problem will be very limited! That Alkaiza refuse to stream is suspicious, but Choilicious has been streaming in the past. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On October 14 2013 05:08 SlixSC wrote: And sitting around doing nothing has an even lower success rate = 0. The moment GGG stop ignoring top racers, that will be the moment they will try and work this out with GGG in private. I know many of the top racers and GGG don't pay attention to any of the prominent issues in the racing scene. Again, understandable because GGG is an indie developer, but if GGG doesn't do anything about it, the community will have to. I'm not telling you to sit around and do nothing. Whatever this guy posted on the forums could have been sent directly to GGG through PM or support and it was closed because there was no reason for it to be posted on the official forums. The medium of your arguments is wrong and you take that as GGG ignoring you instead of going through the proper channels. Have you ever considered that GGG is ignoring top racers because you present your argument poorly? I fail to believe that GGG would be ignoring you if you had irrefutable evidence of map hacking. In my experience GGG is very interested in the opinion of their players and will follow up with you personally via PM to get more information about how they can solve problems with the game if you present logical arguments. They want their game to succeed and put forth the effort for it to do so. On October 14 2013 05:25 EchelonTee wrote: We need a vote for GM. I nominate Blitzkrieg0. If you still play a lot, haven't really seen you on. I haven't been playing, but I will be back for the new patch. I will probably play more math of exile than path of exile though ^_^ | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On October 14 2013 05:18 EchelonTee wrote: Honestly, I don't disagree with you that GGG's efforts to stop cheaters has been largely ineffectual, but it doesn't change that fact that name-and-shaming on forums is no way to go about this. The accusers can always take it to reddit I suppose where it would get a lot of attention. I talked to cwu right after he made that post and his intention was not to cause drama or name shame people. I don't know if you know Mors (I don't, but this is what I was told) but he has been collecting evidence of Alkaizer's maphacking for over a year now and GGG simply doesn't pay attention to him, no matter where and when he brings it up. This is the community's way of saying "look GGG there is a problem, there are some people who seem to be maphacking, in some cases it's even obvious, now you always tell us you got it under control, but no cheater was ever banned, so what's going on?". I mean, I think we can all agree that there are maphackers out there, hell most top racers I've talked to think Choi, BZ and Alkaizer maphack. But, maybe some of you can understand the frustration, whenever this is brought up GGG simply says "it's all good we got it under control." but then one has to wonder, how come nobody has ever been banned? Are we to assume that there isn't even a single racer who uses this freely available maphack that is seemingly undetectable? I really don't know what GGG mean when they say that they "have it under control", because absolutely nothing is happening and nothing has happened for more than a year. If they can't prove that they are hacking why not just tell Mors in private that they can't prove it at this point in time, why come out and say "it's all under control" and effectively lie to people for such a long period of time. It is frustrating because people want fair competition, it isn't fun when someone like Choi effectively destroys the competition and I am almost 100% certain that he maphacks. I don't know him but from the evidence that was posted in cwu's thread and what I've hear about him it seemed very conclusive. On October 14 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: I'm not telling you to sit around and do nothing. Whatever this guy posted on the forums could have been sent directly to GGG through PM or support and it was closed because there was no reason for it to be posted on the official forums. The medium of your arguments is wrong and you take that as GGG ignoring you instead of going through the proper channels. Did you like.. not read any of my previous posts? Like I said people tried to bring this to GGG's attention in the past and they were routinely ignored. You seem to have this impression of GGG that they are oh so caring about the issues of the community, let me assure you that's not the case. I understand they are an indie company, but if they don't have time for this, let the community sort it out, don't shut down every thread about it, all the while ignoring all the PMs people send you in private about this very issue. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On October 14 2013 05:32 EchelonTee wrote: Any other suggestions for GM? I'm definitely not active enough to qualify. The person who pays for all the guild stash tabs/member extensions. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
Did you like.. not read any of my previous posts? Like I said people tried to bring this to GGG's attention in the past and they were routinely ignored. You seem to have this impression of GGG that they are oh so caring about the issues of the community, let me assure you that's not the case. I understand they are an indie company, but if they don't have time for this, let the community sort it out, don't shut down every thread about it, all the while ignoring all the PMs people send you in private about this very issue. I have read all your posts; I just don't agree with any of them. Are you going to shame the map hackers into stopping by talking about them on the forums? Nothing good is going to come out of a map hacking thread on the official forums. Your assumption that GGG ignores top racers because you don't see results is completely off base for the reasons I've already stated. If you want to talk to your friend and PM me a copy of this thread I would like to read it. | ||
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Varanice
United States1517 Posts
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On October 14 2013 05:20 Taguchi wrote: @slixsc you responded to a guy saying 'what are they supposed to do if they can't prove someone's hacking' with 'they're incompetent for not being able to find out' that's the argument i have with you No, you don't seem to understand. The reason I said this is not because I think they are incompetent (I mean sure they are to some extent, everyone is) but to show that, whatever argument we had there has no relevance to my own argument. It was inconsequential. I accepted his argument as true and it still didn't refute my own argument. Which was the whole point of that exercise. you're basically arguing they're incompetent because they don't act with a mob mentality (we, the almighty community, are telling you this is thus! now get to it!) No, that's not what I said at all. I said the exact opposite. If they don't have time for it, they should at least allow the community to discuss it and sort it out themselves. However, they don't seem to be doing anything about it and simulatenously make it harder for the community to discuss this issue by deleting every single thread about it. this is not to say those people aren't actually hacking, i didn't get to see the evidence but if they're not streaming, have inconsistent results linked to their streaming and so on they probably are but you need to understand the concept of 'conclusive evidence' and ggg's perspective/liability if they happen to be proven wrong This is the problem. I never argued that they have to ban them based on the thread that cwu posted, as a matter of fact I never argued that they have to ban anyone in particular at all. My argument was solely based on the fact that GGG claims to have it "under control" all the while never actually banning anyone. Now I don't think there isn't a single maphacker in the racing community and I guess neither do you. Now riddle me this, given that maphackers exist and GGG has maphacking under control why wasn't a single maphacker banned... ever? Now I know what you are going to say (again), "because they can't ban people without having conclusive proof of their maphacking, blablabla" and let me be very clear here (again), because this goes back to my comment earlier about idiots. This argument is irrelevant to my argument, absolutely 100% irrelevant, if they cannot ban them for whatever reason, ressources, capabilties or legally, it doesn't matter. they cannot possibly claim to have maphacking under control when they are seemingly unable to ban maphackers. Doesn't matter why they cannot do it, the fact that they can't means that they obviously don't have it under control. This is the point, they might not even be consciously lying about it, but one would have to seriously re-define the phrase "to have something under control" in order to argue that never banning a single cheater means you have cheating under control. It's simply not a true statement, everything else you guys attach onto this, you know, the reasons why they don't have it under control, is irrelevant, absolutely irrelevant. This is why I accepted muck's argument as true and why I told you repeteadly that this discussion we are having here is irrelevant. I can't make myself any clearer than this, I'm sorry. | ||
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