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On December 10 2019 13:34 EchelonTee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 04:44 ThaddeusK wrote:
I can't think of any specific reason why the trade off would be worse for bow characters, but if you are just interested in the content and not that keen on bow stuff there are almost certainly more pleasant league starter builds, unless one of the new/reworked bow skills is crazy overtuned like normal. Gonna have to wait for patch notes/lvl 20 gems to see that tho. in my experience, bow characters are very gear dependent, so while you can eventually become tanky and strong, it takes longer compared to builds like summoner or ED contagion the exception is stuff like toxic rain, explosive arrow, elemental hit. I'm looking at one of those for league start maybe... I really don't like bow starting though. guess just have to have good judgement and pick the overtuned skill xD
Absolutely, attack characters in general are more gear dependent than casters, thats a fundamental design decision that PoE made (which has some exceptions as you point out). But there is this perception that bow characters are glass cannons and melee can (and have to) build tanky, and I just don't see any reason why a bow character should by definition be less tanky than a melee build, they use similar ascendancys, scale off gear, and are in similar parts of the tree. People simply choose to build bow chars as glass cannons because they can get away with it.
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On December 10 2019 22:57 Harris1st wrote:
I've just read a bit about what's to come in 3.9
I mean this game has the most complicated endgame I've ever encountered anyway and now it gets even more complicated? How on earth can someone new to the game and its mechanics understand this?
I don't want to read for hours on end how to do stuff. I wanna jump in for an hour or 2 and get stuff done and have a sense of accomplishment :/
I really wanna get into this but this seems like a huge obstacle in addition to the freakishly complicated builds and character development.
How did you guys get started?
The first league I played was 3.0. I played 3-4 different characters and only one of them finished the campaign and barely started mapping. I was just enthralled with the different skills I wanted to try, the passive tree, enjoyed the leveling experience and going back with twink items, etc. In 3.1 I got a character to red maps, build plagued with poor optimization but I started trading a bit more so I got a few items and that carried me. I didn't touch any bosses or anything complicated like that, nor the Elder stuff which was just introduced that patch. League after league I still kept trying new things but got faster, more comfortable coming up with my own ideas and certain passive tree choices/preferences, trying endgame encounters. It happens naturally, and it doesn't have to take forever either (I don't want to make it sound like it's going to take you months to learn, that's against my point lol). The point is that there's so much to learn as you go, or research in small chunks, rather than trying to absorb everything at once before you've even started. I still restart several times per league if I'm not feeling a particular character or if something new and unexpected catches my eye, but I'm so comfortable with it now that leveling/campaign is barely a barrier to getting to mapping and the late game. Whereas I still have friends with low play time that don't even finish the campaign each league and still have fun.
I haven't read in detail the 3.9 patch stuff yet besides like, the bow supports lol. But for sure the wrong and SUPER INTIMIDATING way to get into poe, is to look at the late-game stuff right off the bat. Way too overwhelming like you said. Just start playing. It doesn't take as long as it seems. And another important aspect is that many players DON'T take advantage of EVERY endgame routine or mechanic. Many focus on their personal preference and just go to town on that. There's many "correct" ways to play. Just get started, use as much external resources as you like (build guides, or some leveling tips, or just google as you go, whatever). By the time you start learning/worrying about the next "new thing" you'll usually be comfortable with everything you did previously, enough to say, re-roll if you need to, or put aside the new thing to focus on something you know, just to gain some levels or cash or what have you.
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On December 10 2019 22:57 Harris1st wrote:
I've just read a bit about what's to come in 3.9
I mean this game has the most complicated endgame I've ever encountered anyway and now it gets even more complicated? How on earth can someone new to the game and its mechanics understand this?
I don't want to read for hours on end how to do stuff. I wanna jump in for an hour or 2 and get stuff done and have a sense of accomplishment :/
I really wanna get into this but this seems like a huge obstacle in addition to the freakishly complicated builds and character development.
How did you guys get started?
ive started in 3.5 with a group of friends and all of us played the game sporadically but never into lategame, so we knew the basic idea about what to do but not how.
We basically watched a videoguide with starter builds, picked one that we thought looked nice and easy to play and could comfortable clear maps. For me it was arc lightning elementalist, which ended up the most popular build the whole league because of how easy it was to get into. So i just followed the guide for the skilltree and item recommendation and learned the game while playing. It's a lot of stuff but you dont need to learn everything and get into everything to enjoy the game.
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Really considering a EA / Burning arrow character as a starter.. might be cancerous in SSF though.
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I have no idea what to play lol...
seems like having good sustain will be important. all bosses buffed, especially higher tier map bosses. metamorph league revolves around boss fighting.
Because of that I'm kind of reluctant to play EA / Burning arrow because they can't leech very well, can they?
I think Slayer Lightning Arrow might be pretty good but not as a starter.
I think I might do something simple like Arc Mines or Bladestorm Gladiator
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On December 11 2019 13:22 LagLovah wrote:
Really considering a EA / Burning arrow character as a starter.. might be cancerous in SSF though.
I'm guessing EA just needs a fast bow and then you're good to go. CA and toxic rain probably also make great leaguestarters.
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Wait, for Explosive Arrow they said this: The skill no longer deals Secondary damage with its explosion, which greatly limited support and passive options as many specific damage modifiers wouldn't apply. Now, each arrow's explosion will deal a portion of your base weapon damage, with a large added fire bonus and the full effect of any other added damage. Does this mean the explosion counts as "attack damage"? So it can leech easily? Slayer Explosive Arrow :D
Another question: I'm bad at understanding ignite. If I scale the explosion with stuff like Increased Bow Damage, Increased Attack Damage, would this affect the added fire damage ("Explosions now also deal added fire damage based on gem level, up to 522 to 783 at gem level 20"). So, if this increases the fire damage of the explosions, would this therefore scale the ignite?
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If I scale the explosion with stuff like Increased Bow Damage, Increased Attack Damage, would this affect the added fire damage ("Explosions now also deal added fire damage based on gem level, up to 522 to 783 at gem level 20").
Yes
So, if this increases the fire damage of the explosions, would this therefore scale the ignite?
No. The only ways of scaling ignite is increasing the base damage of your hit (get flat damage), getting stats that affect fire damage over time or debuffing the enemy.
I guess you can make some nutty ignites by scaling attack speed and duration. A quill rain berserker would probably have 20+aps. 100% increased duration gives you 2 seconds of duration, which means 40 arrows in your target. Giving you 650 x 40 = 26000 base damage and 120% more ignite damage (albeit 30% less from quill rain).
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This feels like the nerf-heaviest patch since a looong while. Especially the fossil changes are going to hurt any physical attack builds.
The new RAT (now Ballista) is pretty weak, but it should be rather good with the new tree which has two juicy clusters for +2 totems and good offensive/defensive stuff (+36% totem res too so they're max res). The placement speed is said to be really fast, so I wouldn't use Multiple Totems Support gem since you'd already have 5 and as such the support is pretty weak.
What sucks though is that you now have to place Ballistas closeby, so if you wanna use Point Blank you need to go close to the boss and if you play in indoor maps you'll now have to run in the rooms I guess, so you probably want to be tanky.
I'm pretty sure Skeleton summoner will be the meta on SSFHC as that should still be pretty OP, I played it last league and the damage wasn't nerfed enough for it to become mediocre.
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On December 11 2019 18:07 Alur wrote:Show nested quote + If I scale the explosion with stuff like Increased Bow Damage, Increased Attack Damage, would this affect the added fire damage ("Explosions now also deal added fire damage based on gem level, up to 522 to 783 at gem level 20"). Yes Show nested quote +So, if this increases the fire damage of the explosions, would this therefore scale the ignite? No. The only ways of scaling ignite is increasing the base damage of your hit (get flat damage), getting stats that affect fire damage over time or debuffing the enemy. I guess you can make some nutty ignites by scaling attack speed and duration. A quill rain berserker would probably have 20+aps. 100% increased duration gives you 2 seconds of duration, which means 40 arrows in your target. Giving you 650 x 40 = 26000 base damage and 120% more ignite damage (albeit 30% less from quill rain).
Explosive Arrow
Now costs 8 mana at gem level 1 (from 18), up to 10 at gem level 20 (from 27).
Arrows stick into the enemy or wall and explode after a duration. The duration no longer refreshes whenever a new arrow is attached (previously they were handled like "charges", which refresh their duration whenever a new one is gained).
If an enemy has multiple arrows stuck in them, the first one to explode will consume all other attached arrows, adding their damage to the first arrow's explosion.
On-hit effects such as Chance to Knockback are determined by the exploding arrow, however each arrow calculates it's own damage, including critical strike chance and damaging ailments independently, and these are summed to create one hit. Each arrow checks it's own critical strike chance, and only has it's critical multiplier applied to that arrow's portion of the damage if that arrow rolls a critical strike, but if any of the arrows roll a critical strike, this combined explosion will be considered a crit for on-crit effects. The same is true of damaging ailments such as ignite. For example, if the exploding arrow did not successfully roll a critical strike or ignite, that part of the explosion will have no ignite damage or critical strike multiplier. If two other arrows were also attached at the point of the explosion and they successfully rolled to critically strike, they will add their critical strike damage to the explosion, and the explosion will cause an ignite from their summed ignite damage.
Explosions now also deal added fire damage based on gem level, up to 522 to 783 at gem level 20 (from 586 to 879).
Now inherits its base critical strike chance from your weapon (previously had a 6% base critical strike chance).
Now gains +2 to explosion radius up to a cap determined by gem level, up to +19 at gem level 20. Previously it naturally capped at +10 due to the charge limit.
Explosions now deal 3% more damage with Ignite per explosive arrow on the target.
So the ignite that roll Will sum up plus the 3% multiplier as I read.
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On December 11 2019 03:12 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 22:57 Harris1st wrote:
I've just read a bit about what's to come in 3.9
I mean this game has the most complicated endgame I've ever encountered anyway and now it gets even more complicated? How on earth can someone new to the game and its mechanics understand this?
I don't want to read for hours on end how to do stuff. I wanna jump in for an hour or 2 and get stuff done and have a sense of accomplishment :/
I really wanna get into this but this seems like a huge obstacle in addition to the freakishly complicated builds and character development.
How did you guys get started? ive started in 3.5 with a group of friends and all of us played the game sporadically but never into lategame, so we knew the basic idea about what to do but not how. We basically watched a videoguide with starter builds, picked one that we thought looked nice and easy to play and could comfortable clear maps. For me it was arc lightning elementalist, which ended up the most popular build the whole league because of how easy it was to get into. So i just followed the guide for the skilltree and item recommendation and learned the game while playing. It's a lot of stuff but you dont need to learn everything and get into everything to enjoy the game.
maybe "end game" is complicated but you can get pretty far without really knowing everything in the game.
Like, for me, I just started about a month ago and I still don't know much about all the crafting thing or synergie and stuff. I just started with a ranger and played with w/e drop for me and gems i found and was able to get up to T2 map without that much of troubles (only needed help on Act10 final boss after I died to it about 65 time).
I'm pretty sure you can do w/e you fell like and be able to go pretty far.
Agree that after that, you need to read and fallow guide line.
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Finnishing the campaign and doing white Maps is FAAAR from even pretty far. T1 and 2 Maps are easier than Act 10.
You can play the campaign with a shitty build. If you have decent life/resist yellow maps also are doable. Its after this when bad builds truely *break* and hit a wall.
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On December 11 2019 23:19 Velr wrote:
Finnishing the campaign and doing white Maps is FAAAR from even pretty far. T1 and 2 Maps are easier than Act 10.
You can play the campaign with a shitty build. If you have decent life/resist yellow maps also are doable. Its after this when bad builds truely *break* and hit a wall.
That's not entirely true. Yes, Kitava is a monster, but it's entirely possible (for someone not experienced) to be barely res capped in Act10 and then going into maps with a higher res penalty which will make monsters hurt a lot more.
Also it'll be exciting to see how they change the campaign bosses, Brutus looked a lot more dangerous in the video they showed and he isn't the only boss with new attacks.
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On December 12 2019 00:03 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2019 23:19 Velr wrote:
Finnishing the campaign and doing white Maps is FAAAR from even pretty far. T1 and 2 Maps are easier than Act 10.
You can play the campaign with a shitty build. If you have decent life/resist yellow maps also are doable. Its after this when bad builds truely *break* and hit a wall. That's not entirely true. Yes, Kitava is a monster, but it's entirely possible (for someone not experienced) to be barely res capped in Act10 and then going into maps with a higher res penalty which will make monsters hurt a lot more. Also it'll be exciting to see how they change the campaign bosses, Brutus looked a lot more dangerous in the video they showed and he isn't the only boss with new attacks.
Monsters may hurt more but you'll be able to still clear the map generally. Kitava is a much longer fight and more of the attacks hit a bigger part of the screen so you have to contend with that. Most trash map stuff you can dodge or clear quick enough to be alright. Especially because a more casual run means you are way overleveled by time you get to maps.
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Yeah but Kitava is an exception, before 3.9 you basically wouldn't see a harder map boss till some red map bosses if you're experienced, tbh. Map Kitava is much easier for example.
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Theorycrafting question: If you have a buttload of flat added lightning damage (from the new Manastorm shield), and you want to take advantage of it by adding it to a spell that you're CwC'ing with Cyclone, what spells make good delivery vehicles for that sort of thing?
Is Arc a good candidate with the range buff? Is Firestorm good, or is its damage effectiveness too low?
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I don't talk about kitava. The second half of act 10 is in general MUCH harder than t1-3 if you don't get totally fucked by the resistance penalty.
There is a reason the act 10 bosses don't show up till redmaps.
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The only boss I often have trouble with in A10 is Vilentia, Kitava is fine as long as you know his attacks and have some good aoe to deal with the heart adds. And the corrupted Avarius is a joke.
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Lightning Arrow with Voltaxic will probably be nuts, but I don't think I wanna try it. I'll probably test the new Ballista gems and go Ascendant with Chieftain & Deadeye.
On December 12 2019 03:37 PoulsenB wrote:
The only boss I often have trouble with in A10 is Vilentia, Kitava is fine as long as you know his attacks and have some good aoe to deal with the heart adds. And the corrupted Avarius is a joke.
I think Vilentia is fine if you're able to tank the retarded bombardments, otherwise I don't remember it as extraordinarily hard.
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On December 11 2019 23:19 Velr wrote:
Finnishing the campaign and doing white Maps is FAAAR from even pretty far. T1 and 2 Maps are easier than Act 10.
You can play the campaign with a shitty build. If you have decent life/resist yellow maps also are doable. Its after this when bad builds truely *break* and hit a wall.
The point though is that a very large number of players only ever make it this far, and spend a lot more hours doing it, and still have fun and call it a day. This should be the initial goal for anyone first getting into the game. Not killing Shaper or getting Headhunter or anything like that. If reading about the endgame or new things you only do after 50++ hours into the league scares off someone unfamiliar, then that sucks.
Finishing the campaign by doing no research or following no build guide and doing no trading, etc. as a BRAND new player is still quite an accomplishment. And by then someone will know whether they like the game enough to learn more and really sink their teeth into the post-campaign experience.
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EPT
