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On November 30 2017 05:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
I think the mirror in Atziri is sufficient mechanism for intelligent reflect. Having random mobs with it just punishes you randomly for doing too much damage.
...and exactly that punishment is something that keeps builds 'honest', even when GGGs balancing is off and they missed something OP. I don't think reflect in general is a fun mechanic, but I do think the game is better as a whole with it around since it can balance things that nobody even thought of.
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On November 30 2017 09:23 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2017 05:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
I think the mirror in Atziri is sufficient mechanism for intelligent reflect. Having random mobs with it just punishes you randomly for doing too much damage. ...and exactly that punishment is something that keeps builds 'honest', even when GGGs balancing is off and they missed something OP. I don't think reflect in general is a fun mechanic, but I do think the game is better as a whole with it around since it can balance things that nobody even thought of.
or GGG could make mid league balance changes to address things that are completely out of line.
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they used to do that, but I guess it made more sense when leagues were 4 months long. In a 3 month league where only the 1st month is truly relevant, any balance changes seems a bit strange.
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To be fair they mentioned this is only going to be the first step into reworking reflect as a mechanic. I guess clever mechanics also need some time to develop. I have lots of trust in GGG but I still don't think there was anything wrong with reflect. High damage builds did suffer against it but if you are not insane its really hard to one shot you and we are talking damage that is nowhere near what casuals usually have.
I also think its fine that if you do not play smart (aka HEY MAN IT WAS ALL OFFSCREEN) or simply overcast for every trashmob or just stack so much damage that its basically not needed you can get punished. People with mitigation, defensive setups suffer slower clearspeeds etc.
Simply don't like the change now since it punishes slower clearspeed and rewards nuking builds.
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I think I would've prefered keeping reflect like it is or nerfing the numbers a little bit, while removing the reflect map mods.
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I really struggle to see anything good with the reflect mechanic as is.
I welcome any change in any direction.
There are, for most people, also just 2 Kinds of builds:
Some that near immediatly die if they accidentally hit a reflect mob and ones that barely notice. My Stormcall-Crit-Inquisitor just died immediatly, maybe with 2k HP more it would have been ok but how on earth was this mechanic ever "fine" let alone "fun".
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On November 30 2017 22:03 Velr wrote:
I really struggle to see anything good with the reflect mechanic as is.
I welcome any change in any direction.
There are, for most people, also just 2 Kinds of builds:
Some that near immediatly die if they accidentally hit a reflect mob and ones that barely notice. My Stormcall-Crit-Inquisitor just died immediatly, maybe with 2k HP more it would have been ok but how on earth was this mechanic ever "fine" let alone "fun".
Because its a mechanic that you can actually work around. There are options to reduce reflect. If you want to rock a billion DPS that is fine but on the other hand you can't complain that it will kill you. You don't need to cast your stormcalls on the reflect mob - you can clearly see it...
Its like a armour/defence stacking person to complain to still get one shot by hard hits. Why am I dying to that if I do everything to mitigate it? etc.
You already only receive a small percentage of damage reflected. You can equip an item to reduce reflect. You can take Ash, Frost & Storm... there are tons of options. Now every fast clearer just doesn't care about anything anymore, its not fun 
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I know all this and now my question:
How is this in any way fun or adding anything to the game?
Especially when there are plenty of builds that do the same/more dmg and don't care about reflect at all. Many people just delete their builds if they struggle to hard with reflect, its not like there are plenty of builds that have 0 issues with it and play just fine.
Your basically arguing for bringing back "path of life nodes" just with "anti reflect nodes/ascendancies".
Btw: "Clearly seeing a reflect mob"... Your joking right? The only way i can tell if a mob reflects is if my red ball begins to jump up and down like mad (or is way down but the mob is dead, depending on build ). I assume you don't mean actually reading it?
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On November 30 2017 23:03 Velr wrote:I know all this and now my question: How is this in any way fun or adding anything to the game? Especially when there are plenty of builds that do the same/more dmg and don't care about reflect at all. Many people just delete their builds if they struggle to hard with reflect, its not like there are plenty of builds that have 0 issues with it and play just fine. Your basically arguing for bringing back "path of life nodes" just with "anti reflect nodes/ascendancies". Btw: "Clearly seeing a reflect mob"... Your joking right? The only way i can tell if a mob reflects is if my red ball begins to jump up and down like mad (or is way down but the mob is dead, depending on build ). I assume you don't mean actually reading it?
About seeing it: You can obviously spot both elemental and physical reflect "aura/graphics" below the mob? My friend does play as crit frostbolt and he immediately spots the reflect mobs even during chaotic situations. If you blindly open all strongboxes and a rare with reflect spawns and you spam your spells you should die. Its like a miner complaining for dying to porcupines when he detonates a strongbox instantly.
The mechanic in itself is not fun but no mechanic in itself is fun. It makes you stay true to your g ame and actually work on your character and playing style. Of course fun is matter of your own taste but I simply don't think one shotting everything without even caring about anything is more fun than actually at least keeping in mind that there are certain things that might kill you.
And no - this is not about "get more life" - This is about using tools in game to counteract mechanics. Also I actually have never heard of people deleting their builds because they struggle with reflect. In all of my years in PoE I have only died to reflect in the time of reflect-aura or when I had a huge missplay. I can see builds like vaal fireball etc struggle a lot more since you cannot give direction but removing it alltogether ?
So let me ask you - do you have more fun playing a game where its impossible to die? Because I dont.
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On November 30 2017 23:03 Velr wrote:Btw: "Clearly seeing a reflect mob"... Your joking right? The only way i can tell if a mob reflects is if my red ball begins to jump up and down like mad (or is way down but the mob is dead, depending on build ). I assume you don't mean actually reading it?
Visual clarity of the mechanic and the soundness of the mechanic itself are two different issues--you can correct the former with better visual design without having to remove the underlying mechanic.
That said, visual clarity is something GGG...struggles with, to put it lightly.
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As I don't play HC I really don't care about dying on occasion to reflect but I also need to add my voice to "hard to notice reflect mobs" camp.
I notice it only if it is solo enemy on screen or one of the few left. Whenever there is a lot of them or if I need to do a lot during combat my concentration is spread out enough that I don't notice that reflect graphic until it is too late.
As for if it is fun or not to have reflect mobs that depends on each of the players, nobody can claim that for others.
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On November 30 2017 23:20 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2017 23:03 Velr wrote:I know all this and now my question: How is this in any way fun or adding anything to the game? Especially when there are plenty of builds that do the same/more dmg and don't care about reflect at all. Many people just delete their builds if they struggle to hard with reflect, its not like there are plenty of builds that have 0 issues with it and play just fine. Your basically arguing for bringing back "path of life nodes" just with "anti reflect nodes/ascendancies". Btw: "Clearly seeing a reflect mob"... Your joking right? The only way i can tell if a mob reflects is if my red ball begins to jump up and down like mad (or is way down but the mob is dead, depending on build ). I assume you don't mean actually reading it? About seeing it: You can obviously spot both elemental and physical reflect "aura/graphics" below the mob? My friend does play as crit frostbolt and he immediately spots the reflect mobs even during chaotic situations. If you blindly open all strongboxes and a rare with reflect spawns and you spam your spells you should die. Its like a miner complaining for dying to porcupines when he detonates a strongbox instantly. The mechanic in itself is not fun but no mechanic in itself is fun. It makes you stay true to your g ame and actually work on your character and playing style. Of course fun is matter of your own taste but I simply don't think one shotting everything without even caring about anything is more fun than actually at least keeping in mind that there are certain things that might kill you. And no - this is not about "get more life" - This is about using tools in game to counteract mechanics. Also I actually have never heard of people deleting their builds because they struggle with reflect. In all of my years in PoE I have only died to reflect in the time of reflect-aura or when I had a huge missplay. I can see builds like vaal fireball etc struggle a lot more since you cannot give direction but removing it alltogether ? So let me ask you - do you have more fun playing a game where its impossible to die? Because I dont.
I "like" dieing to mechanics i can interact with, not ones i have to spec/gear around. Especially ones that feel this unresponsive and just hurt certain builds way more than others... My Storm-Call Inquisitor that just started mapping was probably also a build that is hurt most by it, you frontload 3 x Stormcalls and these are very likely to crit. So normally i was just instantly dead if all 3 hit.
With my other chars i didn't even have to think about it (Coc-Discharge, Tempus-Flicker, Arc-Miner)
As for visibility... Your eyes must be leagues above mine, i long gave up on deciphering what aura a rare mob has by looking at the colors around it.
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Long shot, but anybody here won a hat? Lol. Left my computer on, muted, on 160p as I left for work, and sadly, still no.
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It's really not hard to discern reflect mobs, they have very distinct aura-type graphics. Also if you die to single ele reflect your build needs some help anyway I do believe.
I think it mostly boils down to the softcore approach of "I should be able to play the game the way I want and not get punished" vs the hardcore approach of "I should do what it takes to not die"
Wonder if these reflect mortars are going to be block/spell block able?
(no hats for me)
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The char wasn't finnished (lvl 71 iirc?) and there was room for up to 2000-3000 HP more before even thinking about Kaoms Heart and that would logically have helped .
Doesn't change that the mechanic for me is absolutely non-reactive bullshit "blam your dead/near-dead" or "who cares"  .
Something like Mortar sounds fun tho.
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On December 01 2017 01:06 Velr wrote:The char wasn't finnished (lvl 71 iirc?) and there was room for up to 2000-3000 HP more before even thinking about Kaoms Heart and that would logically have helped . Doesn't change that the mechanic for me is absolutely non-reactive bullshit "blam your dead/near-dead" or "who cares" . Something like Mortar sounds fun tho.
Not trying to argue but can you name a mechanic that is fun and yet deadly in Path of Exile? - Besides maybe corrupting blood which is easily mitigated by having flasks up... all ... the ... time.
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I don't see a problem with reflect acting in a similar way to corrupting blood though. The counter to reflect before was enormous amounts of leech and hoping you didn't 1 hit yourself, now there really isn't one.
Why can't reflect do damage over time?
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On November 30 2017 23:03 Velr wrote:I know all this and now my question: How is this in any way fun or adding anything to the game? Especially when there are plenty of builds that do the same/more dmg and don't care about reflect at all. Many people just delete their builds if they struggle to hard with reflect, its not like there are plenty of builds that have 0 issues with it and play just fine. Your basically arguing for bringing back "path of life nodes" just with "anti reflect nodes/ascendancies". Btw: "Clearly seeing a reflect mob"... Your joking right? The only way i can tell if a mob reflects is if my red ball begins to jump up and down like mad (or is way down but the mob is dead, depending on build ). I assume you don't mean actually reading it?
First of all fully agree that visibility of reflect has been an issue since the game's inception but this got only worse when clearspeed went up due to players spending less time in the same place more and more.
However, I'd argue reflect is an important and even crucial mechanic to this type of game. It is something that isn't a fun mechanic but a mechanic that fixes shitty balance to a certain degree since it puts an upper limit on player damage in a roundabout way.
Now, I fully agree that there are better ways to achieve the same goal, for example properly balancing skills (which is something that GGG has always had an issue with and that is also quite hard due to the complexity of such a game unless you do mid-league balance patches which most people hate), making gains exponentially lower (imagine your multipliers scaling towards a ceiling) or likely other things that I haven't heard about yet.
It always boils down to the fact that any effort to change balance by making mobs 'harder' or 'tankier' is bound to fail if there isn't some form of an upper limit to player power. Without such a limit all that happens when you try to do such a thing is the gap between strong and weak builds getting even wider without actually addressing the underlying issue: some builds being way, way stronger than others.
Once you think about reflect as a mechanic to limit player dps by design it becomes a lot more sensible. But in the end between the initial removal of reflect auras, the last year or two of balancing and this recent change we already know GGG disagrees here nowadays and doesn't mind going full davai with player power - not to mention introducing completely reflect immune builds in the first place.
Think about it, basically all massive offenders to balance over the years like Vaal Spark, CoC discharge, EK Nova and similar ones would have never happened with proper reflect mechanics and without Vaal Pact. With the changes to CI and Vaal Pact we're now changing reflect alongside. One step forward, two steps back from my point of view.
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On December 01 2017 09:07 bo1b wrote:
I don't see a problem with reflect acting in a similar way to corrupting blood though. The counter to reflect before was enormous amounts of leech and hoping you didn't 1 hit yourself, now there really isn't one.
Why can't reflect do damage over time?
Something like lifesteal mechanics, but reversed? That would be neat, but I feel like you still end up in the same boat where its ultimately a check of damage vs sustain, which isn't that engaging.
I kinda like the approach of punishing reliance on specific methods of sustain I.E. cant lifeleech, can't regen life, x% reduced flask charges gained etc, but the primary engagement w that is just "dont do those maps" which kinda sucks.
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The only engagement to reflect maps for 99% of builds is to not do them. Being punished for doing damage is a silly way to prevent people getting more damage.
In my opinion, the real problem is that the tiers don't have enough progression in them, both in terms of danger of mobs/bosses, and in terms of rewards.
If a t16 map's white mobs were equivalent to a t9's yellow, but the loot that was dropped was substantially better, would it not be a more fun progression to unlock them? Currently the best way of making money while mapping is to spam sextants onto t13's and run them - and only them. What incentive is there? Why would the 200ex wander bother doing shaped courtyard which has been fully sextanted, when the risk has gone up 20%, and the reward has gone up 2%, yet the time to complete has doubled?
To me reflect as a mechanic is a huge bandaid to cover up the lack of late game progression. A level 70 character with a decent build can jump straight into a t10 and not fear a whole heap.
Mobs should scale exponentially, chase uniques should only start dropping at certain ilvls, there should be more chase uniques in general, the atlas was a perfect opportunity to implement old leagues and even encourage more people to play together. Imagine if the atlas had random zana map mods across maps that changed every hour or so? Would people not join other peoples party to go and do the beyond shaped shores? I would.
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EPT
