On December 23 2011 21:44 Twisted wrote: He's good but way overhyped in my opinion. No way he's going to reach the level of Messi. You forget that Messi was already kicking ass in Spain when he was 17-18?
So far Neymar hasn't impressed me as Messi did back when he was 19.
Are we talking dribbling here... if so, it's situational, because Naymar is really good, has more tricks than Messi and awesome acceleration.
I would say both Naymar and Ronaldo are better at out-dribbling a whole team than Messi.
Now, is Messi better at dribbling past one or two players outside the box to score a goal? Yes. Is he better at one-two's? Yes.
Basically, my argument is, dribbling wise, Naymar is better in MORE situations than Messi NOT ALL. As a complete player Messi is way better than Naymar, but not at dribbling.
Now, if you consider Messi plays in a well coached system that has been standardized in Barcelona for decades... and that he has players around him who've played in that system for over a decade... well, the "well oiled machine" makes him look good to cut the story shot.
I think, if Naymar was exposed to a club like Barcelona, he would catch up to Messi. Remember it took Messi 2 years to become a first team regular at Barca, after which (admittedly) he just exploded.
LOL Messi is without a doubt the best dribbler in the world by a loooooooooong shot. And yeah, his playmaking abilities exceed almost any other player as well. The only ones I would rank as equals in playmaking abilities of the top of my head are Xavi, Iniesta and Sneijder.
Just because Neymar can dribble past a few defenders in an average league doesn't mean he dribbles better than Messi. Messi's acceleration is also out of this world so that argument doesn't count either.
On December 23 2011 21:44 Twisted wrote: He's good but way overhyped in my opinion. No way he's going to reach the level of Messi. You forget that Messi was already kicking ass in Spain when he was 17-18?
So far Neymar hasn't impressed me as Messi did back when he was 19.
Are we talking dribbling here... if so, it's situational, because Naymar is really good, has more tricks than Messi and awesome acceleration.
I would say both Naymar and Ronaldo are better at out-dribbling a whole team than Messi.
Now, is Messi better at dribbling past one or two players outside the box to score a goal? Yes. Is he better at one-two's? Yes.
Basically, my argument is, dribbling wise, Naymar is better in MORE situations than Messi NOT ALL. As a complete player Messi is way better than Naymar, but not at dribbling.
IMO Messi has out-dribbled a whole team many more times than CR. And finished it with a goal I mean. For reference look at the last ~50 goals of both and see which are better
On December 23 2011 21:44 Twisted wrote: He's good but way overhyped in my opinion. No way he's going to reach the level of Messi. You forget that Messi was already kicking ass in Spain when he was 17-18?
So far Neymar hasn't impressed me as Messi did back when he was 19.
Are we talking dribbling here... if so, it's situational, because Naymar is really good, has more tricks than Messi and awesome acceleration.
I would say both Naymar and Ronaldo are better at out-dribbling a whole team than Messi.
Now, is Messi better at dribbling past one or two players outside the box to score a goal? Yes. Is he better at one-two's? Yes.
Basically, my argument is, dribbling wise, Naymar is better in MORE situations than Messi NOT ALL. As a complete player Messi is way better than Naymar, but not at dribbling.
IMO Messi has out-dribbled a whole team many more times than CR. And finished it with a goal I mean. For reference look at the last ~50 goals of both and see which are better
If you can show me a clip where Messi wins the ball in his own half, then out-dribbles the opposition team and scores, I will concede and shut up. Remember, there can be no passes. It would be ok, but it would be fair-er, if this was done during a non-counter attacking situation, i.e. there is at least midfield/defense in front of him and he has to dribble/go around say 3 -4 players.
On December 23 2011 21:44 Twisted wrote: He's good but way overhyped in my opinion. No way he's going to reach the level of Messi. You forget that Messi was already kicking ass in Spain when he was 17-18?
So far Neymar hasn't impressed me as Messi did back when he was 19.
Are we talking dribbling here... if so, it's situational, because Naymar is really good, has more tricks than Messi and awesome acceleration.
I would say both Naymar and Ronaldo are better at out-dribbling a whole team than Messi.
Now, is Messi better at dribbling past one or two players outside the box to score a goal? Yes. Is he better at one-two's? Yes.
Basically, my argument is, dribbling wise, Naymar is better in MORE situations than Messi NOT ALL. As a complete player Messi is way better than Naymar, but not at dribbling.
IMO Messi has out-dribbled a whole team many more times than CR. And finished it with a goal I mean. For reference look at the last ~50 goals of both and see which are better
If you can show me a clip where Messi wins the ball in his own half, then out-dribbles the opposition team and scores, I will concede and shut up. Remember, there can be no passes. It would be ok, but it would be fair-er, if this was done during a non-counter attacking situation, i.e. there is at least midfield/defense in front of him and he has to dribble/go around say 3 -4 players.
He doesn't win the ball himself, but this is pretty close xD
On December 23 2011 21:44 Twisted wrote: He's good but way overhyped in my opinion. No way he's going to reach the level of Messi. You forget that Messi was already kicking ass in Spain when he was 17-18?
So far Neymar hasn't impressed me as Messi did back when he was 19.
Are we talking dribbling here... if so, it's situational, because Naymar is really good, has more tricks than Messi and awesome acceleration.
I would say both Naymar and Ronaldo are better at out-dribbling a whole team than Messi.
Now, is Messi better at dribbling past one or two players outside the box to score a goal? Yes. Is he better at one-two's? Yes.
Basically, my argument is, dribbling wise, Naymar is better in MORE situations than Messi NOT ALL. As a complete player Messi is way better than Naymar, but not at dribbling.
IMO Messi has out-dribbled a whole team many more times than CR. And finished it with a goal I mean. For reference look at the last ~50 goals of both and see which are better
If you can show me a clip where Messi wins the ball in his own half, then out-dribbles the opposition team and scores, I will concede and shut up. Remember, there can be no passes. It would be ok, but it would be fair-er, if this was done during a non-counter attacking situation, i.e. there is at least midfield/defense in front of him and he has to dribble/go around say 3 -4 players.
The goal against Getafe? How can you not know about that goal ;o.
Also, the tricks argument. Just because Messi doesn't show off with tricks doesn't mean he can't do them. Most 'tricks' just aren't functional.
If a player in the Dutch competition can do stuff like this:
Messi/Neymar whoever can do that shit too. Most of the time it's just not functional.
On December 23 2011 21:44 Twisted wrote: He's good but way overhyped in my opinion. No way he's going to reach the level of Messi. You forget that Messi was already kicking ass in Spain when he was 17-18?
So far Neymar hasn't impressed me as Messi did back when he was 19.
Are we talking dribbling here... if so, it's situational, because Naymar is really good, has more tricks than Messi and awesome acceleration.
I would say both Naymar and Ronaldo are better at out-dribbling a whole team than Messi.
Now, is Messi better at dribbling past one or two players outside the box to score a goal? Yes. Is he better at one-two's? Yes.
Basically, my argument is, dribbling wise, Naymar is better in MORE situations than Messi NOT ALL. As a complete player Messi is way better than Naymar, but not at dribbling.
IMO Messi has out-dribbled a whole team many more times than CR. And finished it with a goal I mean. For reference look at the last ~50 goals of both and see which are better
If you can show me a clip where Messi wins the ball in his own half, then out-dribbles the opposition team and scores, I will concede and shut up. Remember, there can be no passes. It would be ok, but it would be fair-er, if this was done during a non-counter attacking situation, i.e. there is at least midfield/defense in front of him and he has to dribble/go around say 3 -4 players.
The goal against Getafe? How can you not know about that goal ;o.
Also, the tricks argument. Just because Messi doesn't show off with tricks doesn't mean he can't do them. Most 'tricks' just aren't functional.
If a player in the Dutch competition can do stuff like this:
Messi/Neymar whoever can do that shit too. Most of the time it's just not functional.
Ye, the goal against Getafe was posted. Ok, I'll give him that one.
I still think Naymar/CR have better dribbles and more finesse on the ball. I also think, that both CR and Naymar would/will do better then Messi at Barca... that's just my opinion but we can't compare this or predict until it happens. I hope Neymar's signature is 100% confirmed and I hope Barca sells Villa to do this.
Please stop comparing Neymar to Messi. Messi is on a whole different league of his own. I do believe Neymar is awesome and that he's way above average, he has a bright future ahead of him etc. Twisted is 100% correct when he says Messi is head and shoulders above anyone at dribbling. Very few players in football history could carry the ball the way he carries it, it's almost as if it's glued to his feet, uncanny. I think CRonaldo could look as awesome as Messi (in a different way, obviously) if he played at Barcelona, but I still believe Messi is the best player.
About Neymar, he is just 19 years old and I'm sure he will improve considerably in the next few years - if he moves to Europe. He also has to stop diving if he wants to be taken seriously by people. Every time he gets hit he dives and puts on a terrible crying-face. I'm a fan of his, though, the kid is sick. Aged only 19, Neymar was the best player of Copa do Brasil and Copa Libertadores. You can't compare the football level in Europe and South America, the former is way higher, but that still says a lot about how good he is. Also a very positive aspect of him is that he plays for the team. He doesn't just walk and wait for the ball. He fights for it, he helps defending, he comes back to pick it up.
Also, I don't understand why people is always looking for "the next best ever." Look, I personally believe Messi is the best player ever. Why does Neymar have to be the next Messi? He can be just himself and still be awesome, there's room for everybody. Zidane played in the same era as Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Figo, Ronaldinho, Henry, and they were all awesome and are going to be remembered for many years to come. I don't care which one of them was better. Some times I'll wake up and want to remember some of Zidane's class and I'll go to youtube and watch a few of his videos. Next day I can watch Ronaldo go past 10 players as if he were a giant among midgets, or Henry scoring sick goals for Arsenal. Stop comparing, it's silly.
To be honest I'm also getting a bit annoyed by the argument that Messi would be nowhere if he didn't play at Barça. Messi is a HUGE (also the biggest out of all the players at least) influence on the successes of Barça in the past 5 years.
He is constantly critiqued for his play in the Argentine squad, but whenever I see a match of Argentina he's head and shoulders (not literally d'oh ) above every other player in the team. EVERY offensive play comes via him. He constantly moves back to the defenders to pick up the ball and create something. It's like a one-man-show every time I watch Argentina. If they got a good manager behind the material they have, I'm sure they'd be way better.
Oh and I'm also of the opinion that he's the greatest ever and that includes Maradonna, Pele, Cruijff. You can't really compare these kinds of players because they're from very different era's. Back in the 80's Maradonna got WAY more space for his dribbles and all that so it was easier to excel. Back then it came down to natural talent way more as well because nowadays every footballer is a machine when it comes to stamina and power. They all have sixpacks and photoshopped bodies while in the 80's a dude with a beergut wouldn't surprise anyone. Being the best player is way harder nowadays than it was 20-30-40 years ago.
On December 24 2011 00:45 Twisted wrote: To be honest I'm also getting a bit annoyed by the argument that Messi would be nowhere if he didn't play at Barça. Messi is a HUGE (also the biggest out of all the players at least) influence on the successes of Barça in the past 5 years.
He is constantly critiqued for his play in the Argentine squad, but whenever I see a match of Argentina he's head and shoulders (not literally d'oh ) above every other player in the team. EVERY offensive play comes via him. He constantly moves back to the defenders to pick up the ball and create something. It's like a one-man-show every time I watch Argentina. If they got a good manager behind the material they have, I'm sure they'd be way better.
Oh and I'm also of the opinion that he's the greatest ever and that includes Maradonna, Pele, Cruijff. You can't really compare these kinds of players because they're from very different era's. Back in the 80's Maradonna got WAY more space for his dribbles and all that so it was easier to excel. Back then it came down to natural talent way more as well because nowadays every footballer is a machine when it comes to stamina and power. They all have sixpacks and photoshopped bodies while in the 80's a dude with a beergut wouldn't surprise anyone. Being the best player is way harder nowadays than it was 20-30-40 years ago.
He wouldn't be regarded as an awesome striker "if" his team was Argentina, though. Because he's forced to play differently and finds himself in a good position to score much less often than when he plays for Barça. Also, Argentina doesn't score as often as Barcelona so he would have a smaller number of assists per season. Don't you agree it would change the way we perceive him? He would still look awesome as the best player is not necessarily the top scorer, but his statistics certainly play a big role at how great he is.
On December 24 2011 00:45 Twisted wrote: To be honest I'm also getting a bit annoyed by the argument that Messi would be nowhere if he didn't play at Barça. Messi is a HUGE (also the biggest out of all the players at least) influence on the successes of Barça in the past 5 years.
He is constantly critiqued for his play in the Argentine squad, but whenever I see a match of Argentina he's head and shoulders (not literally d'oh ) above every other player in the team. EVERY offensive play comes via him. He constantly moves back to the defenders to pick up the ball and create something. It's like a one-man-show every time I watch Argentina. If they got a good manager behind the material they have, I'm sure they'd be way better.
Oh and I'm also of the opinion that he's the greatest ever and that includes Maradonna, Pele, Cruijff. You can't really compare these kinds of players because they're from very different era's. Back in the 80's Maradonna got WAY more space for his dribbles and all that so it was easier to excel. Back then it came down to natural talent way more as well because nowadays every footballer is a machine when it comes to stamina and power. They all have sixpacks and photoshopped bodies while in the 80's a dude with a beergut wouldn't surprise anyone. Being the best player is way harder nowadays than it was 20-30-40 years ago.
He wouldn't be regarded as an awesome striker "if" his team was Argentina, though. Because he's forced to play differently and finds himself in a good position to score much less often than when he plays for Barça. Also, Argentina doesn't score as often as Barcelona so he would have a smaller number of assists per season. Don't you agree it would change the way we perceive him? He would still look awesome as the best player is not necessarily the top scorer, but his statistics certainly play a big role at how great he is.
If you put Ronaldo in that team or Neymar for that matter you have the same effect. Obviously scoring less and giving less assists as a striker influences how people see you. Fact is he is one of the guys who carries barcelona which is the best team right now and maybe even ever.
On December 23 2011 21:44 Twisted wrote: He's good but way overhyped in my opinion. No way he's going to reach the level of Messi. You forget that Messi was already kicking ass in Spain when he was 17-18?
So far Neymar hasn't impressed me as Messi did back when he was 19.
Nah I don't think he is so overhyped at least he lives up to expectations, his dribbles are amazing (Neymar's) on what I do agree is that he is not as impressive as Messi, but he can reach the level of Messi if he goes to a good club in Europe.
On December 24 2011 03:08 RvB wrote: If you put Ronaldo in that team or Neymar for that matter you have the same effect. Obviously scoring less and giving less assists as a striker influences how people see you. Fact is he is one of the guys who carries barcelona which is the best team right now and maybe even ever.
Like I said, I believe he's the best ever, which means I don't think the fact that he plays for Barça is a bad thing. I'm actually grateful that Barcelona makes it possible for him to show everything he's showing us in the past few years. And I agree with you and Twisted that he plays a big role at how good Barcelona is right now.
messi is the best dribbler ever. arguably the greatest player through all time, too, but as far as dribbling goes, there's no "arguably" about it, it's just the way it is. neymar, and many others, are significantly flashier, but nobody manages to slide past defenders and create chances/goals at even near the same frequency messi does.
I think cronaldo is also absolutely amazing, and I would not be surprised if people have dropped the pele vs maradona discussion 20 years from now and are instead discussing cronaldo vs messi. but the thing about cronaldo is that, relating to messi, he's a much better long distance shooter, a much better header, he's stronger, and generally a more complete player. you can argue that messi has better vision and superior passing ability. although personally I'm not sure, as it's really hard to, in this one area of their play, know what to attribute to the players and what to attribute to their teams. but the point is that, even though I think cronaldo edges out messi in most areas you can compare footballers in, I still think messi is the better player - because the one area where messi is truly exceptional, ball-handling/dribbling - he consistently performs at a much higher level than any other player.
if anything, the highlight video of neymar, only shows that he's much better than his opposition, because he can get away with doing stupid flashy stuff. if he does that kind of stuff vs the top 5 european teams, i'll be really impressed, but now he's just an unproven talent - although a big one.
I think there was doubt a couple of years ago about who was the best player. But right now it's absolutely no contest. Messi has consistently performed at a ridiculous level for such a long time now. He always has a profound impact on a game and he scores goals that other players couldn't even imagine. Yes Ronaldo is an incredible footballer but like most great players he's slightly wasteful. Messi is the exception to that rule, he rarely ever loses the ball and even if during a game he doesn't score a goal he draws 3-4 defenders to him every time he moves towards it. The control he has, even at pace, is astounding. If I see a better player in my lifetime I will be surprised.
On December 23 2011 21:44 Twisted wrote: He's good but way overhyped in my opinion. No way he's going to reach the level of Messi. You forget that Messi was already kicking ass in Spain when he was 17-18?
So far Neymar hasn't impressed me as Messi did back when he was 19.
Are we talking dribbling here... if so, it's situational, because Naymar is really good, has more tricks than Messi and awesome acceleration.
I would say both Naymar and Ronaldo are better at out-dribbling a whole team than Messi.
Now, is Messi better at dribbling past one or two players outside the box to score a goal? Yes. Is he better at one-two's? Yes.
Basically, my argument is, dribbling wise, Naymar is better in MORE situations than Messi NOT ALL. As a complete player Messi is way better than Naymar, but not at dribbling.
Now, if you consider Messi plays in a well coached system that has been standardized in Barcelona for decades... and that he has players around him who've played in that system for over a decade... well, the "well oiled machine" makes him look good to cut the story shot.
I think, if Naymar was exposed to a club like Barcelona, he would catch up to Messi. Remember it took Messi 2 years to become a first team regular at Barca, after which (admittedly) he just exploded.
Are you serious? How many times have you even watched Messi play? Neymar made be more flashy but in terms of effectiveness and getting pass a bunch of players quickly Messi defiantely is the best. And I'll even put him with the best dribblers ever.
since we are talking about young players, check this video of Ganso. He's 22 years old, Santos' playmaker. People expected him to be the next Brazilian star along with Neymar until he got injured in 2010:
The video is one year old. Unfortunately, Ganso had an awful 2011. Around September 2011 he had a really serious injury on his left knee and had to stop for 6 months. He returned in February 2011 and in March he had another injury that put him off for another 3 months. He returned just in time for the Copa Libertadores final. Ever since he's not been the same player. He's also struggling to make a new contract with Santos since 2010. Back then, Neymar made a new contract to earn a shitload more (both earned around R$ 1,200,000 per year - $1 = R$ 1,85), and Ganso was negotiating with the club to get a better salary too. During the negotiations Ganso got injured and they postponed the negotiations. Since then, Neymar has become a better player and is now getting paid R$ 36,000,000 per year, while Ganso still makes the very same R$ 100,000.
He still makes brilliant plays, but he seems uninterested in most matches and sometimes he looks like a 40 year old player just walking around. I wonder if will make a good season in 2012. Hopefully he will have a good season in 2012, I used to love watching him play.
I didn't make this post to compare him with any of the young players above btw. I just wanted to show some of him to those who never heard of him.
EPT
) above every other player in the team. EVERY offensive play comes via him. He constantly moves back to the defenders to pick up the ball and create something. It's like a one-man-show every time I watch Argentina. If they got a good manager behind the material they have, I'm sure they'd be way better.
