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Do not turn this into a (insert game here) vs. LoL argument. It's about LoL and Riot's success, which is great for ESPORTS. - Jibba |
On July 27 2011 08:16 Microchaton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People saying that LoL's skillcap is very low, compared to DotA and HoN especially, couldn't be more wrong. There are just things that arent apparent if you don't play the game at a decent level. The problem with LoL is that it's actual strength competitively is the various mindgames teams can have, especially mid/lategame.
Those DON'T exist, or in a really limited fashion in DotA/HoN. (Baron/Roshan being the only objective beside racks).
In LoL the control of the 4 buffs (2 blues 2 reds), of the drake and of Nashor (aka Baron, super tough mob, gives lots of gold and a strong buff, but doesnt give special items. are extremly important, some summoner spells add a lot to the decision-making (teleport, basically a TP scroll on very high cooldown, smite, that deals huge fixed damage on a creep (up to "boss-creeps) and play a huge part in jungle invasion, "steals" and general control of these important creeps.. The more varied toolkits of various champions also allow for much more variety in strategy possibilities, especially pick-wise.
"Forcing" drake/baron (aka the team gathering near it and forcing a teamfight or a loss of the important creep), split / ninjapushing can be a very important part of the game, map control via wards and oracles is possibly even more important than in DotA/HoN (And surprisingly people use them a LOT more in "pub games" in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN), especially as they can help with the jungle/creeps control.
I can't really be arsed writing an essay on that, most of the people convinced that LoL is just a "shitty DotA clone for casuals (which is what I used to think, I played DotA for years) won't try it seriously anyway. (No, 1 game is not "trying). But there are tons of more subtle things that you only discover by playing.
In addition, there is the "small" fact that I think LoL is insanely more fun than DotA/HoN, and the community, though overall "less hardcore" is wayyyyy less douchebaggy. Yes, there are flamers, trolls and arrogants c*nts. There are in every game. But DotA/HoN's current population is pretty much exclusively composed of those. Refusing to try it is really your call, but you're missing out.
(And again, I used to despise LoL as a retarded kid game, maybe that would make you rethink your position)
Are you not forgetting the buffs at river that swing the game for you, like your carry getting double dmg (dota) instead of the insanely OP lizard buff (lol). clever things you do with illusion buffs etc, bottle being epic. LoL late game is all about waiting for 1 person in a bush with your team for 5min [im just exagirating but it is REALLY stale]. Dota had a much clearer role defition of characters, LoL has mostly Tanky DPS irelia, jarvan, yorick, the list goes on and on and on, and the new character will be exactly the same.The Map in lol is pretty terrible as well, with the dota map allowing for far more dynamic play. Ofc the issues go on to a lack of denying and massive turtling for the first half.
The game isnt terrible dont get me wrong, and im glad they've hit so big with it, but im just playing it till dota 2 comes out and i (sadly) have very high hopes. I doubt they can do much about it but the ranking system is horrific, the area referred to as "elo hell" being 1200-1500, which hard to get out of, since no matter how good you are, its a team game with the team having to pull together instead of 1-2 individuals, and you cant even do anything if when you do your draft pick people pick 2-4 ad carrys and instant lock in. With regards to the community in the game, nothin really compares to tf or TL in that department so one would be applying quite a high standard, but generally dota/hon/lol/demi-god (ha 4th one doesnt count) attracts the wrong kind of crowd. Like i said im happy for their success but im fairly sure there are many just like me waiting for dota 2 to fix LoL's problems.
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On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote:
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist.
do you even know how simplistic sc2 is compared to broodwar? yet sc2 is doing ok at a esports, a esports game shouldnt be measured by its level of depth but how much it can show to the spectators
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I really have a lot of respect for RIOT since they have designed the game in a great manner and have developed an incredibly good business model.
However, the game lost its appeal to me at some point since they are so many flamers. Also, the game felt very repetetive and considering that it is so shallow skill-wise, I just lost interest.
On July 27 2011 08:20 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments  ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up. That's like saying Warcraft 3 is closer to WoW than Starcraft. Dota was the first MOBA, and the only relevant one before LoL, obviously they will be compared, even more so because they are virtually the only two really diferent versions avaible even now, HoN/Dota/Dota2 are almost the same game. They are games of the same genre, have the same basic structure with the map, mechanics, like the leveling system, gold, recipes, neutrals, heroes, creeps, etc. even skills and items overlap a lot. WoW is a completelly diferent genre with completelly diferent mechanics, I really don't get how it would even be closer to LoL than to Dota to be honest.
I guess the main (and only) similarity between LoL and WoW is the constant grinding... If you don't want to spend money on LoL you have to play thousands of games to have enough IP for a decent variety of heroes and the neccessary runes for them. That's also what I disliked the most about the game. You need a full decent rune page in order to be on equal footing with your opponents, but since they are so expensive you can neither buy enough runes for all types of heroes nor a big variety of heroes through IP if you don't grind like crazy. For example, after I reached lvl 30 I owned only a dozen of (cheap) heroes and one (and a half) rune pages...
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I can't believe LoL's success gets so many people's pants in a knot. It's a great new addition as an esport title as it is a comparatively accessible game, extremely fun to play (more so than DotA or HoN, despite the latter titles' greater depths) and it is a colourful, non-violent game, i.e. easy to market.
Given that more companies want a piece of the MOBA pie, it is not certain LoL's dominance in the market will continue. However, I just wanted to say that LoL is an extremely fun game to play, albeit less fun to watch, and is a complete winner in terms of design as a game for the masses.
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On July 27 2011 08:40 Yoshinaka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote:
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist. do you even know how simplistic sc2 is compared to broodwar? yet sc2 is doing ok at a esports, a esports game shouldnt be measured by its level of depth but how much it can show to the spectators
I think it's a decent comparison but not the best, Brood War was an incredibly mechanically demanding game which was also strategically complex, yada yada. Starcraft 2 took out a lot of the unnecessary mechanics but managed to keep most of the competitive difficulty intact, I don't know if the difficulty level is really comparable.
To draw another analogy, hopefully this works... Let's say BroodWar is like a version of basketball where you had to tap yourself on the head every first time you bounced the ball and on the ass every second time, it would be ridiculously difficult and have a higher skill cap and all that jazz and once people get used to it you'd say buttheadsketball is the more difficult game than basketball with it's standard simplification of removing the head and ass tapping.
To me, DotA to LoL is more like taking basketball(normal), removing dribbling and substantially lowering the net, a somewhat integral component change that may harm it's competitive potential.
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On July 27 2011 01:22 Microchaton wrote:
So, first off, this confirms what most of people assumed without solid proofs : League of legends is HUGE, even for a "free game", as it's not a simple farmville/freecell we're talking about but an actual video game with vast knowledge to be acquired and a steady-ish learning curve.
Wait what? How does the fact that LoL has a huge userbase have anything to do with it being an "actual videogame", not to mention with it having a steady learning curve? That statement makes no sense at all.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote:
DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA.
Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
DotA has more players than pretty much any other online game available today. I believe WoW has more, and maybe a couple more games (Maplestory?) but besides that it's actually one of the largest games in the world. People just don't notice it cause a) It's not distributed by a company so no official numbers and b) The majority of the players are in asia/china, so the westerners don't really notice how absolutely enormous the game at that part of the world.
Must admit I didn't think LoL would have THAT many players, but can't really say I'm surprised either. I'm more surprised it took so many years for someone to make a clone out of one of the most popular (unlicensed, no less) games of all time.
Go esports.
Although I still want DotA2 to rip HoN, DotA and LoL apart at the seams and unite the MOBA scene.
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Near unlimited mana is complete bullshit, if you spam your spells like an idiot you're going to be OOM pretty fast, and I'm pretty sure (this complaint existed before HoN/LoL even existed) that lots of people are pissed that a single spell uses 2/3 of your mana bar. And if people go all mana/regen runes, they use tons of other stats so it's balanced anyway. It's like saying quake is crap because there are lots of ammunition available on the maps, and it would be a better game if you had only a forth of that and people had to run around trying to gauntler one another instead.
The negligible death penalty is mostly true early game. If you lose someone isolated mid/late game, sure, he's not losing gold, but there's a pretty high probability that your team is going to lose a drake, or a baron. It also allows for more various strategies than just "sitting around waiting for someone to step in the wrong place then gibbing everything. Easier to target spells ? I don't get that one, it's pretty similar, and there are as many skillshots in LoL than in DotA. No deny is kind of like the death penalty, it stalls the game and make heroes with the better attack animation ridiculously better. The only thing it does is artificially add a counter-intuitive mechanic that makes your lane more pushed. What I ACTUALLY miss (because I'm not a blind fanboy) is tower deny, now this actually involved a bit of thought from the 2 teams, some tree-juking, and blocking.
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because its a lazy game. its just a glorified warcraft 3 map. everyone thinks they're godlike at it because when you play in pubs its soo easy. all you have to do is be patient and not die.
atleast games like bloodline champions tried to do something new.
User was temp banned for this post.
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they need to crank up the pace of LoL if they want it to be a viable spectator sport. Top lane solo usually stays in lane until max level, never leaving once. Ganking is just far too hard with flash/ghost. And many games only have 10 kills or less by the 30 minute mark.
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Idk why people like that so much, I played it before and it was so boring 
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On July 27 2011 08:48 Gorguts wrote:
because its a lazy game. its just a glorified warcraft 3 map. everyone thinks they're godlike at it because when you play in pubs its soo easy. all you have to do is be patient and not die.
atleast games like bloodline champions tried to do something new.
As happy as I am for LoL, and I'm extremely happy for it, I really do wish Bloodline Champions was where LoL is at now. It's such an awesome game with a new style/concept. I just wish they had more to the game, it gets quite bland/repetitive quickly.
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On July 27 2011 08:47 Microchaton wrote:
Near unlimited mana is complete bullshit, if you spam your spells like an idiot you're going to be OOM pretty fast, and I'm pretty sure (this complaint existed before HoN/LoL even existed) that lots of people are pissed that a single spell uses 2/3 of your mana bar. And if people go all mana/regen runes, they use tons of other stats so it's balanced anyway. It's like saying quake is crap because there are lots of ammunition available on the maps, and it would be a better game if you had only a forth of that and people had to run around trying to gauntler one another instead.
The negligible death penalty is mostly true early game. If you lose someone isolated mid/late game, sure, he's not losing gold, but there's a pretty high probability that your team is going to lose a drake, or a baron. It also allows for more various strategies than just "sitting around waiting for someone to step in the wrong place then gibbing everything. Easier to target spells ? I don't get that one, it's pretty similar, and there are as many skillshots in LoL than in DotA. No deny is kind of like the death penalty, it stalls the game and make heroes with the better attack animation ridiculously better. The only thing it does is artificially add a counter-intuitive mechanic that makes your lane more pushed. What I ACTUALLY miss (because I'm not a blind fanboy) is tower deny, now this actually involved a bit of thought from the 2 teams, some tree-juking, and blocking.
I don't think your comparison to FPSs hold up, reducing the ammunition one has would likely making aiming more integral but that depends on the focus of the game, mana isn't exactly comparable to bullets in shooters because some characters in LoL don't even require mana to function, the designs are completely different in this regard. I've often been able to set a rune-page that allows me near-limitless mana on some champions with little sacrifice, particularly if I whore the blue-buff, there's basically no issue, I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but it does lead to less resource management as far your mana pool goes.
The no-death penalty thing is interesting to me, I just feel like the game is both too forgiving and too conservative at the same time. There's a smaller penalty for death, yet the numbers of kills and deaths in the game are much lower overall than in most competitive DotA or HoN matches, I think this has a lot to do with the quick-fixes that exist in the game that make screw-ups fairly forgiving.
I don't really agree with the "easier to target spells" part either, there are plenty of skill-shots in LoL so that's fine. It is more clear what's going where though, but I'm not sure if that's really a bad thing.
I don't think no-deny is like no death penalty at all, it doesn't stall the game, it adds more to the laning phase which is currently a huge snore-fest, it forces both sides to actually engage in something more and compete directly within a lane, I really disagree with you here, I think denying actually adds a lot competitively.
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On July 27 2011 08:39 SKC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 27 2011 08:30 Alaron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:25 GogoKodo wrote:On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up. I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay. Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way. Let's compare the similarities: Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way? I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota .
Srry but the all-around system is even older then DotA - there were so many MOBA-"trailblazers" with similar stuff.
Ur point that DotA heroes have an ultimate and WoW not is wrong. WoW heroes have a kind of ultimate. LoL "jungle" is a tenth of the DotA "forrest" - the traditional role of the forrest was completetly deleted in LoL. Magic Penetration, Armor Penetration, Ability Power thats WoW and NOT, I repeat, NOT DotA. A lot of skills are also similar to WoW, whats ur point?
Imo LoL does not belong into the MOBA genre. There are a lot of factors outside the game which have influence in the game. Glyphs, Summoner-skills, hell even Heroes...
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On July 27 2011 08:10 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:03 Gamerah wrote:
During their livestream of dreamhack, they made it so that every person playing LoL would attribute to the viewer counts, despite the fact that they would not be even watching it. This was done by having the stream embed into the LoL main menu, that was placed in the middle and replaced the other main page features.
Not quite right, you had to actually click on the link to watch the stream, if you were just playing the game the views didn't count.
I am surprised this silly rumor is still around. I guess the mantra is that if you repeat it enough its bound to be true. Even though it has been shot down quickly every single time it has been posted.
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The lack of denying, as well as making it quite boring, takes the edge away from the ranged champs. My goodness is support + ad carry a fun lane bottom, each last hitting for god knows how long without a care in the word, the extra element of denying would spice things up in this bland lanening phase.
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On July 27 2011 09:00 UndercoverNerd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:39 SKC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 27 2011 08:30 Alaron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:25 GogoKodo wrote:On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up. I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay. Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way. Let's compare the similarities: Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way? I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota . Srry but the all-around system is even older then DotA - there were so many MOBA-"trailblazers" with similar stuff. Ur point that DotA heroes have an ultimate and WoW not is wrong. WoW heroes have a kind of ultimate. LoL "jungle" is a tenth of the DotA "forrest" - the traditional role of the forrest was completetly deleted in LoL. Magic Penetration, Armor Penetration, Ability Power thats WoW and NOT, I repeat, NOT DotA. A lot of skills are also similar to WoW, whats ur point? Imo LoL does not belong into the MOBA genre. There are a lot of factors outside the game which have influence in the game. Glyphs, Summoner-skills, hell even Heroes...
Gaaaaaaaaaah! I hate the term MobA, it applies to a royal fuck-ton of games. Riot just pushed for it's use so that they wouldn't be associated with DotA.
Can we just call it an AoS, based on the originator of the genre?
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On July 27 2011 01:26 Mordiford wrote:
It blows my mind that the game could become this successful based on what it is. It was a fun game, but I always felt it really lacked the depth of some of it's competitors. At the end of the day, much like with Zynga and the like, I guess accessibility is what matters in terms of mass market success.
Good for them, it's a great casual games to kick back with some friends.
exactly.
back when hon and lol were new, we would always make fun of lol and how it was childish compared to hon...but now i eat my words. amazing success...gratz to them! but to be honest, i do not like mass market games, cuz most of them are catered to casual players.
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Gaaaaaaaaaah! I hate the term MobA, it applies to a royal fuck-ton of games. Riot just pushed for it's use so that they wouldn't be associated with DotA.
Can we just call it an AoS, based on the originator of the genre?
I hate the term, too - but most ppl dont understand me when I use AoS or similar terms...
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On July 27 2011 08:39 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:30 Alaron wrote:On July 27 2011 08:25 GogoKodo wrote:On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up. I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay. Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way. Let's compare the similarities: Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way? I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota.
I was thinking more along the lines of.
WoW: Grind to be better.
LoL: Grind or pay money to be better than your opponent.
Items are very very different. AP made it that way sorry. Gold system is very different too. No gold loss on death, more base gpm. Items that increase base gold gain. Jungle is riddled with stupid strong buffs. You can buy an infinite amount of wards. Invis reveal wards also have the same sight range as normal wards. No denies. Summoner abilities. Show me one game with someone that doesn't have ghost or flash please. Entire rune system is built on the basis of more time played = bigger edge. Or give me money to increase your edge without having to play as much. Barracks respawn. No Glyph. No Blink. No Runes. Bushes. One mode, easy mode. Want some more?
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The laning phase is not bland at all ^_^ especially when youre watching like brand vs annie mid or some mu. similar. Deny goes on, spectators see a gank coming. And then when the ganks go down it's extrememly interesting. For example, look at dreamhack when shushei went vs vlad. That lane was extremely fun to watch.
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EPT
