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Do not turn this into a (insert game here) vs. LoL argument. It's about LoL and Riot's success, which is great for ESPORTS. - Jibba |
On July 27 2011 01:28 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote:
DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA.
Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago. I don't think anyone with any sense would try to argue with public information, even with the massive success DotA had in China. Most people don't really argue with League of Legend's popularity...
Most don't. LoL is free. That is where these numbers come from. Most people from the MOBA genre disagree with its popularity because it is the easiest game with a system to buy an edge over others.
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Wow Riot seems to actually have a big fish there in terms of e-Sports.
From all i have heard, they are actually improving their game constantly to make it more e-Sports focused. If that is taking a way to long time is a completely diffrent question.
Fun to see that the gaming scene on PC is actually that large.
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It's good that their numbers are high but I'm still in favour of a death penalty (kinda like DotA) because that adds an entire new level of shutting down carries, etc. Also means that you can't go like 1-10 and still have 15/16k gold lying around. t_t
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On July 27 2011 06:01 Mordiford wrote:
The business model has likely been the biggest selling point for League of Legends, I just hope more companies don't follow it, particularly for games that I like because I'm one who is far more interested in simply dropping around 30 to 60 dollars for everything over getting nickel and dimed for content in a game.
As far as champion design goes, champions actually feel individually weak which sort of makes it seem like there's more of an emphasis on team-play, particularly at high levels, but in all honesty, the team aspect is no more defined that in a game such as DotA or HoN. I feel like the method of design is very standard with each champion being defined by their roles which leads to redundancy within a role since every champion sort of does the same thing within it's role with a different flavor. I think the niche style is better for competitive play, but the general style could be better for spectatorship since you only need to understand 6-7 roles instead of every niche hero.
That doesn't really matter though because watching competitive League of Legends right now is comparable to watching paint dry, particularly for the first 10 minutes. There's little flare and not many events where someone straight up out-skills someone else, there are few direct comparable interactions in lane, there isn't really a whole lot of action and the kill-count is generally low... and Flash... oh... fucking... Flash. I remember when they said they were going to fix/remove it... That was almost 8 months ago.
Then we see Dreamhack and every single player is running Flash, players are dropping and games are continuing with teams a man down(no pause function), commentators gloss over it and no re-game, recently released champions are allowed and seen in a massive amount of games(Hi, I'm Vayne), players talk essentially about being out-picked and games being over at champion selection.
I dunno, it's a very successful game, but I saw WCG and wasn't excited as a spectator, I saw Ionia vs Noxus and the game was one-sided as hell with atrocious commentary, I saw Dreamhack and it was a snore-fest. I think competitive League of Legends has nothing going for it right now to be honest.
Still a fun game though.
Totally agree with that part about the business model. Although at least it's fully playable F2P.
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Well it makes complete sense considering that LoL, out of all the DotA type games has the lowest skill cap and is the easiest to get into, and with the simplistic gameplay inherent in DotA-type games (aka only having 1 unit to micro) and shallow learning cure, it really appeals to casual-level games, who want to get into RTS games but are to intimidated by most of them. Then there is the fact that although being free to play, you suffer no REAL detriments by not buying anything through micro transactions, and also people are alot less abusive then playerbase in HoN/DotA towards new players/casuals.
Put all these things together and of course you have the recipe for one of the most popular PC games on the planet. I don't see how anyone could have not expect that this game was this popular.
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This is a fun game. You can easily convince your friends to play with you "hey its free" lots of different heroes to try out. Unlike sc2 its hard to convince your buddies to go buy a 60 dollar game and then suck for a month.
I hope it continues to grow and does well. My friends and I (my friends are not not gamers by any means) get to interact in a stress free environment, sharing in humiliation and triumph. No better way to hangout with friends virtually!
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On July 27 2011 06:11 B.I.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote:
Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal. well thats funny because I quit playing HoN and DotA because people were so verbally abusive it just made me feel frustrated. i mean honestly man every single freaking game somebody would insult my mother in the most horrible ways. This has yet to happen to me in LoL.
Yea I kinda felt the same way. First time hearing someone on mic bitching me out made me want to break his legs. But really all it turned into was more incentive to get better. I started out dropping to like 1200 MMR, ive since moved up to about 1600 MMR. I think ive played around 90 to 100 games total and at 1600 MMR, surprisingly the people there are slightly less annoying.
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Meh, I think league of legends have been skewing the data quite a bit. 500,000+ players at peak "in-game." That could mean they are idling with the main menu of LoL after the log in. I know a large majority of players that do that in the background. It's not like it takes up that much CPU/bandwidth. During their livestream of dreamhack, they made it so that every person playing LoL would attribute to the viewer counts, despite the fact that they would not be even watching it. This was done by having the stream embed into the LoL main menu, that was placed in the middle and replaced the other main page features. Valve, i don't think they skew their data to that extent. TF2 is a poor comparison since they are entirely different games and appeal to different gamers.
I still consider LoL to be very casual based, and very very poorly balanced. When the same 3-4 heros are banned in ranked every single game, that is a big indicator that something is wrong. Pre v100122 patch, Udyr, Yorick, TF, GP, were banned in like 90% of my games. And whenever they weren't, they dominated their lanes and the course of the game. The patches before that, it was Vlad, Lanewick, Vayne. Frankly there are always ridiculous OP heros in LoL, and there always will be. Which I think is due to the very simplied and basic mechanics. There are very little item customization, not enough emphasis on CC, and pretty much a trend of tanky dps and bursty dps. None of which requires a lot of skill to pull off.
Oh and i fucking hate the ip/rp system. It's already an extremely unbalanced state right from the start. I need to spend ip on runes just to get an even playing field with certain champions, (25 armor pen is game breaking if only 1 ad carry in the game has it), then these overpowered heroes are so damn expensive. RP for skins, totally acceptable, but encouraging me to spend real money on heroes to get an even playing field. That's where I draw the line.
Which is why i'll patiently wait for Dota 2 to come out.
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Sad to say but I do see the similarities in BW>SC2 to dota>LoL, ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.
I played BW, the most amazing game I've ever played, then SC2 came out thought it was great, but it only made me miss BW more, but I can't push myself backwards to play the game more.
I layed dota, and it was a really fun competive game, and the learning aspect reminded me of BW, as their was a wealth of information you could tap into to help you. I got bored of it, and played LoL, and it seems new and fun to me. Now I have hundreds of games under my belt, and I still don't feel finished with it. I think dota is more challenging and rewarding though, the same way BW was.
That said, I can't watch SC2 or LoL, unless the game played is spectacular. I can watch any BW game, even the most standard ones I can enjoy with just korean babble, just because the more standard, the more beautiful. But I can't do that with dota. Perhaps its similar to why 2v2 never got big in BW, its too much to follow especially from 4 different talented minds. 1v1 BW is perfect in that regard. 5v5 even with single unit control, is just so difficult to follow astutely, and I only feel bad for casters who have a way with words, obvious talent, and vast knowledge as they stumble around what 10 different pros are doing.
I think casting needs to be done really different for MOBA. I'm looking forward to dota2, and even being a huge fan of what riot has done, it's valve we are dealing with. That's like everyone marvelling at an acting job by some local nobody, then a legend walking through the door and taking a crack at it.
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It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments  ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
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On July 27 2011 01:47 Cedstick wrote:
LoL es #1, always best never die.
I giggled.
Yeah the game is nice, but i dont like the community. (TL ftw)
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On July 27 2011 08:03 Gamerah wrote:
During their livestream of dreamhack, they made it so that every person playing LoL would attribute to the viewer counts, despite the fact that they would not be even watching it. This was done by having the stream embed into the LoL main menu, that was placed in the middle and replaced the other main page features.
Not quite right, you had to actually click on the link to watch the stream, if you were just playing the game the views didn't count.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On July 27 2011 08:03 Gamerah wrote:
Meh, I think league of legends have been skewing the data quite a bit. 500,000+ players at peak "in-game." That could mean they are idling with the main menu of LoL after the log in. I know a large majority of players that do that in the background. It's not like it takes up that much CPU/bandwidth. During their livestream of dreamhack, they made it so that every person playing LoL would attribute to the viewer counts, despite the fact that they would not be even watching it. This was done by having the stream embed into the LoL main menu, that was placed in the middle and replaced the other main page features. Valve, i don't think they skew their data to that extent. TF2 is a poor comparison since they are entirely different games and appeal to different gamers.
I still consider LoL to be very casual based, and very very poorly balanced. When the same 3-4 heros are banned in ranked every single game, that is a big indicator that something is wrong. Pre v100122 patch, Udyr, Yorick, TF, GP, were banned in like 90% of my games. And whenever they weren't, they dominated their lanes and the course of the game. The patches before that, it was Vlad, Lanewick, Vayne. Frankly there are always ridiculous OP heros in LoL, and there always will be. Which I think is due to the very simplied and basic mechanics. There are very little item customization, not enough emphasis on CC, and pretty much a trend of tanky dps and bursty dps. None of which requires a lot of skill to pull off.
Oh and i fucking hate the ip/rp system. It's already an extremely unbalanced state right from the start. I need to spend ip on runes just to get an even playing field with certain champions, (25 armor pen is game breaking if only 1 ad carry in the game has it), then these overpowered heroes are so damn expensive. RP for skins, totally acceptable, but encouraging me to spend real money on heroes to get an even playing field. That's where I draw the line.
Which is why i'll patiently wait for Dota 2 to come out.
The LoL client issue during Dreamhack has been refuted many times, so that is false. Also, if they can get 500k players logged in, why didn't they get 500k viewers during Dreamhack (about 1 month ago)?
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I also think that LoL has differentiated itself enough from HoN/DotA that the release of DotA2 won't cripple Riot.The stylistic and design differences allows Riot to retain players who may be more casual and don't care too much about the high level play.
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People saying that LoL's skillcap is very low, compared to DotA and HoN especially, couldn't be more wrong. There are just things that arent apparent if you don't play the game at a decent level. The problem with LoL is that it's actual strength competitively is the various mindgames teams can have, especially mid/lategame.
Those DON'T exist, or in a really limited fashion in DotA/HoN. (Baron/Roshan being the only objective beside racks).
In LoL the control of the 4 buffs (2 blues 2 reds), of the drake and of Nashor (aka Baron, super tough mob, gives lots of gold and a strong buff, but doesnt give special items. are extremly important, some summoner spells add a lot to the decision-making (teleport, basically a TP scroll on very high cooldown, smite, that deals huge fixed damage on a creep (up to "boss-creeps) and play a huge part in jungle invasion, "steals" and general control of these important creeps.. The more varied toolkits of various champions also allow for much more variety in strategy possibilities, especially pick-wise.
"Forcing" drake/baron (aka the team gathering near it and forcing a teamfight or a loss of the important creep), split / ninjapushing can be a very important part of the game, map control via wards and oracles is possibly even more important than in DotA/HoN (And surprisingly people use them a LOT more in "pub games" in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN), especially as they can help with the jungle/creeps control.
I can't really be arsed writing an essay on that, most of the people convinced that LoL is just a "shitty DotA clone for casuals (which is what I used to think, I played DotA for years) won't try it seriously anyway. (No, 1 game is not "trying). But there are tons of more subtle things that you only discover by playing.
In addition, there is the "small" fact that I think LoL is insanely more fun than DotA/HoN, and the community, though overall "less hardcore" is wayyyyy less douchebaggy. Yes, there are flamers, trolls and arrogants c*nts. There are in every game. But DotA/HoN's current population is pretty much exclusively composed of those. Refusing to try it is really your call, but you're missing out.
(And again, I used to despise LoL as a retarded kid game, maybe that would make you rethink your position)
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On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
That's like saying Warcraft 3 is closer to WoW than Starcraft.
Dota was the first MOBA, and the only relevant one before LoL, obviously they will be compared, even more so because they are virtually the only two really diferent versions avaible even now, HoN/Dota/Dota2 are almost the same game.
They are games of the same genre, have the same basic structure with the map, mechanics, like the leveling system, gold, recipes, neutrals, heroes, creeps, etc. even skills and items overlap a lot. WoW is a completelly diferent genre with completelly diferent mechanics, I really don't get how it would even be closer to LoL than to Dota to be honest.
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On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
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On July 27 2011 08:25 GogoKodo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up. I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
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On July 27 2011 08:16 Microchaton wrote:
People saying that LoL's skillcap is very low, compared to DotA and HoN especially, couldn't be more wrong. There are just things that arent apparent if you don't play the game at a decent level. The problem with LoL is that it's actual strength competitively is the various mindgames teams can have, especially mid/lategame.
Those DON'T exist, or in a really limited fashion in DotA/HoN. (Baron/Roshan being the only objective beside racks).
In LoL the control of the 4 buffs (2 blues 2 reds), of the drake and of Nashor (aka Baron, super tough mob, gives lots of gold and a strong buff, but doesnt give special items. are extremly important, some summoner spells add a lot to the decision-making (teleport, basically a TP scroll on very high cooldown, smite, that deals huge fixed damage on a creep (up to "boss-creeps) and play a huge part in jungle invasion, "steals" and general control of these important creeps.. The more varied toolkits of various champions also allow for much more variety in strategy possibilities, especially pick-wise.
"Forcing" drake/baron (aka the team gathering near it and forcing a teamfight or a loss of the important creep), split / ninjapushing can be a very important part of the game, map control via wards and oracles is possibly even more important than in DotA/HoN (And surprisingly people use them a LOT more in "pub games" in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN), especially as they can help with the jungle/creeps control.
I can't really be arsed writing an essay on that, most of the people convinced that LoL is just a "shitty DotA clone for casuals (which is what I used to think, I played DotA for years) won't try it seriously anyway. (No, 1 game is not "trying). But there are tons of more subtle things that you only discover by playing.
In addition, there is the "small" fact that I think LoL is insanely more fun than DotA/HoN, and the community, though overall "less hardcore" is wayyyyy less douchebaggy. Yes, there are flamers, trolls and arrogants c*nts. There are in every game. But DotA/HoN's current population is pretty much exclusively composed of those. Refusing to try it is really your call, but you're missing out.
(And again, I used to despise LoL as a retarded kid game, maybe that would make you rethink your position)
No deny, Near unlimited mana, easier to target spells, negligeble death penalty. U can write as many essays as u want but these simple reasons mean lol can never take as much skill as hon/dota. Same way sc2 can never take as much skill as bw due to design that make gameplay easier. Doesnt make it a worse game but LoL taking less skill = measurable fact.
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On July 27 2011 08:16 Microchaton wrote:
People saying that LoL's skillcap is very low, compared to DotA and HoN especially, couldn't be more wrong. There are just things that arent apparent if you don't play the game at a decent level. The problem with LoL is that it's actual strength competitively is the various mindgames teams can have, especially mid/lategame.
Those DON'T exist, or in a really limited fashion in DotA/HoN. (Baron/Roshan being the only objective beside racks).
In LoL the control of the 4 buffs (2 blues 2 reds), of the drake and of Nashor (aka Baron, super tough mob, gives lots of gold and a strong buff, but doesnt give special items. are extremly important, some summoner spells add a lot to the decision-making (teleport, basically a TP scroll on very high cooldown, smite, that deals huge fixed damage on a creep (up to "boss-creeps) and play a huge part in jungle invasion, "steals" and general control of these important creeps.. The more varied toolkits of various champions also allow for much more variety in strategy possibilities, especially pick-wise.
"Forcing" drake/baron (aka the team gathering near it and forcing a teamfight or a loss of the important creep), split / ninjapushing can be a very important part of the game, map control via wards and oracles is possibly even more important than in DotA/HoN (And surprisingly people use them a LOT more in "pub games" in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN), especially as they can help with the jungle/creeps control.
I can't really be arsed writing an essay on that, most of the people convinced that LoL is just a "shitty DotA clone for casuals (which is what I used to think, I played DotA for years) won't try it seriously anyway. (No, 1 game is not "trying). But there are tons of more subtle things that you only discover by playing.
In addition, there is the "small" fact that I think LoL is insanely more fun than DotA/HoN, and the community, though overall "less hardcore" is wayyyyy less douchebaggy. Yes, there are flamers, trolls and arrogants c*nts. There are in every game. But DotA/HoN's current population is pretty much exclusively composed of those. Refusing to try it is really your call, but you're missing out.
(And again, I used to despise LoL as a retarded kid game, maybe that would make you rethink your position)
I like to think that I played the game at a relatively high level(around 1700 when the highest was barely breaking 2000) and I have to say I disagree.
The same team oriented aspect exists in both games, League of Legends simply lacks the high individual skill differentiation and direct engagement that the other two games have, particularly in the laning phase. Rune control basically takes the place of buff mobs and Baron is replaced with Roshan, the lack of dragon would be something you could cite but the way HoN/DotA are designed end up fighting together and killing each other more than in LoL anyways so while these objectives create some action in LoL, it's necessary whereas the other two manage to get enough action without it.
I find the summoner spell system to be kind of a silly addition that I don't really like, you can talk about it's depth but at the end of the day, everyone at Dreamhack ran Flash and something specific to their role, it wasn't some crazy decision, it was pretty straight forward. It seems more like a crutch at this point.
Also, I disagree that the champions toolkits are more varied, since you didn't really go into detail on why I don't know if it's necessary for me to, but I'll just say that champions in LoL are more often designed around some basic roles with different flavors while DotA/HoN characters are more niche, I would consider the latter more varied.
I don't think wards are more important in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN and I don't think people use them more in pub games in LoL than DotA/HoN either to be honest.
As for LoL being more fun, I dunno... It's fun, I didn't have more fun with it though, I got burned out, I kept waiting for it to get more depth and to find that next level of interestingness but I never did. Also, once again, the community for League of Legends is just as bad in my opinion, ranked games yield the same variety of assholes that you would find in HoN/DotA in around the same proportion based on my experience. I think it's gross exaggeration to say one community is comprised almost exclusively of assholes while the other isn't, they're both equally bad in that regard.
So yeah, I disagree with almost everything you said.
Sorry Jibba... I don't think this thread can go without this happening anyways, as long as it's civil I don't know if there's an issue, it's success is relevant to the competition as is the future of the genre.
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On July 27 2011 08:30 Alaron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:25 GogoKodo wrote:On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote:It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up. I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay. Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
Let's compare the similarities:
Dota:
- 5 heroes per team
- 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them.
-Leveling system, that resets each game.
- map
- Creeps
- Jungle
- Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items.
- Towers
- Objective, kill the opposing team main building.
- Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system
- A lot of skills are similar
- Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them.
- Probally other things that I am missing
WoW:
- Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way?
I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota.
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