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Do not turn this into a (insert game here) vs. LoL argument. It's about LoL and Riot's success, which is great for ESPORTS. - Jibba |
On July 27 2011 01:22 Microchaton wrote:
These numbers (and the ginormous growth of Riot in a few months) and the solid viewers numbers of a lot of streams probably justify it's addition in several big LAN events (lastly IEM and MLG).
It doesn't justify anything. For comparison, Wii Sports sold around 76.76 Millions units worldwide, and considering it's not account based there are probably twice as much players - whereas Riot certainly doesn't exclude banned accounts and multiple accounts. Do we want to see Wii Sports in LAN ? I sure wouldn't.
But LoL is certainly a sponsor's dream : Casual players (the average player doesn't play each day) ready to buy content at a fairly high price on a regular basis. What could a company want more from a game ? That's why LoL is in LAN event with huge corporate backup.
EDIT : Oh and as a last comparison, HoN has HALF its playerbase playing EACH day of the week. And it has been so since the beginning of 2011. LoL has less than 10% (according to the OP's numbers)
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a whirl. It is pretty addictive and I had a lot of fun playing but it seems a little daunting to get really into with the store system. How hard will you have to grind if you're not willing to spend any money on it? I guess I should just play casually at the lower levels.
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On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
There is. Invite 500 people to play or something like that and you get all the contents in the game unlocked.
Personally I think it's a smart model. Sure it's irritating wanting to play all the champions and not being able to, but it's: frustration -> high reward what makes you want to keep playing.
I want to be able to say: Fuck you Riot, I got all your champions out of IP without having to spend a single dollar.
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On July 27 2011 20:21 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. There is. Invite 500 people to play or something like that and you get all the contents in the game unlocked. Personally I think it's a smart model. Sure it's irritating wanting to play all the champions and not being able to, but it's: frustration -> high reward what makes you want to keep playing. I want to be able to say: Fuck you Riot, I got all your champions out of IP without having to spend a single dollar.
That's not an actual viable option, honestly... I'm talking about paying a standard price like $60. Getting 500 people to play the game isn't something I consider a viable alternative.
As for it being rewarding, if the design was sufficient then mastering a champion would be it's own reward, not something to force me to sit there and grind out games so I can go, "Yes, I unlocked something new". After a while, that model gets extremely exhausting to me, it just doesn't work for me and I'm not interested in spending 3000 hours just to say, "Fuck you Riot, I got all your champions without spending a dollar". I'd rather just pay $30-60 and enjoy whatever number of hours I play.
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On July 27 2011 20:12 Telcontar wrote:
Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a whirl. It is pretty addictive and I had a lot of fun playing but it seems a little daunting to get really into with the store system. How hard will you have to grind if you're not willing to spend any money on it? I guess I should just play casually at the lower levels.
By Lvl 30 you'll have earned about 25-30k IP (depends on how many days you actually take due to the first win of the day bonus and how many losses you had). Getting two basic rune pages(for physical and mage type champs) will cost you about 18k IP, so you can get a couple of champions on top of that.
I'd say play a few games with the free champs each week and if you really like playing one of them, consider buying him/her. Also don't bother with runes until Lvl 20, anything below Tier 3 is a waste of IP.
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They should enjoy those numbers while they last!
With Dota2 on the horizon and HoN probably going F2P i see no future for LoL...
Maybe it wont be dead tomorrow but in the long run theres no chance it will survive against it competitors!
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I don't see dota 2 competing with a free to play game. Maybe LoL gets less players but it's going to survive trust me.
Also HoN going F2P no way.
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On July 27 2011 20:42 Johnny Business wrote:
I don't see dota 2 competing with a free to play game. Maybe LoL gets less players but it's going to survive trust me.
Also HoN going F2P no way.
Theres a huge chance Dota2 will be F2P aswell. Steam has introduced F2P features just recently.
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Not that surprising when you realise how tailored it is to casual gamers, as opposed to the original Dota.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
There are leaked/photoshopped screenshots (who can tell anymore?) suggesting HoN might be embracing a little f2p.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
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On July 27 2011 20:01 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 18:25 locodoco wrote:On July 27 2011 18:15 Alaron wrote:On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote:
lol will never be competitive?
10~15 offline events coming up next year
all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator. Done posting here. Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game. zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG] if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it I don't agree with anything you're saying. I don't think it has a "different skill cap", I think it's pretty much obviously a lower skill ceiling and it is fundamentally an easier game, it's not just a mechanical difference, DotA/HoN are genuinely more punishing and a system like denies pits players in a lane actively against each other making the laning phase more active and demanding in terms of focus. All the things you mentioned for LoL's skill cap actually exist on DotA and HoN as well, and at the top level of play they exist in pretty much the same amount as LoL. Decision making, teamwork, pre-game preparation, jungle ganks, end game strats...? Are you serious? Those are your higher skill cap choices for LoL. Decision making exists in equal amounts in both games, teamwork exists in equal amounts in both games at the high level of play, pre-game preparation is equally importation(minus games having the possibility to almost be decided at champion selection in LoL more often), jungle ganking is skill between jungle and rune control, end game strats exist equally in both games. All of these things you cite exist in HoN and DotA as well, and then there's all the stuff it has on top of that. Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 18:51 locodoco wrote:On July 27 2011 18:44 Alaron wrote:
Your failing to get my point. You cannot have what you want to play without spending a ridiculous amount of time inside the game or shelling out money. Did you forget you also need to buy the runes to play the character? How is that not time rewarding. I can fully page out 1 6300 hero by the time I reach level 30. Is that fair in your mind? W/E not bothering with this anymore LoL players are so stubborn its funny.
To the post above.
9k games to unlock just the heroes.
Sounds pretty sick and rewarding. That is totally what you should do. Play those 9000 games.
EDIT: Also LoL is the least skilled MOBA in existence. That does make it an easier game and does require less of everything to be good at.
Done here don't bother quoting me. what a horrible game u have to either spend time on it or spend money to get what u want gg lol sucks I've talked about the nature of micro-transactions at length earlier, but quite simply there is no middle ground, it's great for mass market appeal but it's not for everyone because you genuinely do have to choose between spending copious amounts of time keeping up with unlocks or spending massive amounts of money to get what you want. After spending 35 dollars and playing a ridiculous amount of games regularly, I would still find myself saving up for champions and I don't really like having to do that. This isn't really relevant to competitive play though, it's more of a personal note.
having a higher skill cap doesnt mean having more stuff such as denying or losing gold on death
and the things i mentioned for lol such as endgame strat of course isnt exclusive to lol but its genuinely harder to do in lol
end game in dota/hon?
there is none
either u win teamfights midgame and get inhibs and establish mapcontrol and snowball or u lose cuz the opposing team does that.
end game in lol?
a billion times more complicated
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Australia18228 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:15 Alaron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote:
lol will never be competitive?
10~15 offline events coming up next year
all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator. Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
LoL does not have a low skill ceiling. All it does is provide newer players (i.e every HoN/DotA player who has tried LoL) with a simplified understanding of the game. If you got rid of your arrogant mindset and had actually bothered to get to level 30 and played ranked matches (especially premades), you'd learn that there's more aspects to LoL that makes it completely different from DotA/HoN and how much teamwork and coordination is required to win.
LoL is pretty much the one of (if not) the BEST entertainment to a spectator, as pretty much every single player that plays LoL (similar to SC) knows how the game works and can appreciate all those moments where a player or team makes an outstanding decisions or reaction, or the team coordination that comes with every single piece of action in the game.
At top level of play, the individual skills and understanding of the game for each player is so similar that laning phase is not as important and every game-changing action in the game is a result of team coordination to set-up and execute.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On July 27 2011 20:30 Dulkan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 20:12 Telcontar wrote:
Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a whirl. It is pretty addictive and I had a lot of fun playing but it seems a little daunting to get really into with the store system. How hard will you have to grind if you're not willing to spend any money on it? I guess I should just play casually at the lower levels. By Lvl 30 you'll have earned about 25-30k IP (depends on how many days you actually take due to the first win of the day bonus and how many losses you had). Getting two basic rune pages(for physical and mage type champs) will cost you about 18k IP, so you can get a couple of champions on top of that. I'd say play a few games with the free champs each week and if you really like playing one of them, consider buying him/her. Also don't bother with runes until Lvl 20, anything below Tier 3 is a waste of IP.
Thanks for the advice! It's much appreciated.
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Australia18228 Posts
On July 27 2011 21:36 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 20:30 Dulkan wrote:On July 27 2011 20:12 Telcontar wrote:
Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a whirl. It is pretty addictive and I had a lot of fun playing but it seems a little daunting to get really into with the store system. How hard will you have to grind if you're not willing to spend any money on it? I guess I should just play casually at the lower levels. By Lvl 30 you'll have earned about 25-30k IP (depends on how many days you actually take due to the first win of the day bonus and how many losses you had). Getting two basic rune pages(for physical and mage type champs) will cost you about 18k IP, so you can get a couple of champions on top of that. I'd say play a few games with the free champs each week and if you really like playing one of them, consider buying him/her. Also don't bother with runes until Lvl 20, anything below Tier 3 is a waste of IP. Thanks for the advice! It's much appreciated.
Don't think about the grind to the next champion too much and focus on the enjoyment of the game. There are times where I've played so much (and sometimes don't feel like buying anything) that I just ended up banking quite a lot of IP.
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ive been curious.. is dota2 going to be played in sc2's custom games? if so it could bring a new crowd of people into the starcraft community. With the success of LoL its all the more reason why blizzard (if blizzard is even making dota2? im kind of confused) needs to make sure dota 2 is legit.
in the meantime i am just glad LoL is keeping people off the consoles and on the computers where they belong.
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You got it wrong eVolve, Dota2 is made by valve and is a completely independant game (tho a nearly 100% port of the original DotA). "Blizzard Dota" (don't remember the name they gave it) will be a SC2 custom map and has nothing to do with Dota2.
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A lot of people making big claims about a more complicated late game in LoL without going into any depth. You do know Chu happily states HoN is the better game right? I've played with EG and even at that level it's still slow motion easy mode ricing with lazy ganks all involving flash, and a late game similiar to HoN except with much easier abilities and every hero strong like it's casual mode (although I guess that pretty much is LoL).
If you want to prove these views wrong I've been shown from players better than you, you have to go in depth and actually explain your claims.
User was warned for this post
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On July 27 2011 03:37 wei2coolman wrote:
Why I don't think LoL will be a good esports game.
It suffers the same thing Street Fighter suffers from, it's simply too fast. Yes the observers can see whats going on around the map, however the main problem is that team battles are too fast, and that the audience can't catch the nuances of the battle. Also the battle happens to fast for the commentators to actually commentate. Unlike SC2 where actions are fairly easy to notice (feedbacks/snipes/fungals/positioning/ so on), its also slow enough to where commentators can commentate on a lot of the deliberate action of the players.
Isn't Streetfighter the most (at least one of the most) successfull fighter games in terms of competition\e-sports. And also one of the most successful games from all genres in terms of e-sports\competition? People saying LoL can't be an "'e-sports" for this and that reason are already werong. It is showing bigger numbers than pretty much any other game out there at the moment (at least in the west (?)) and at the end of the day, that is what truly matters, how many people are interested in watching it.
As I see it LoL has a few problems for becoming an E-sports. In the same way with WoW, its very hard to understand whats going on without playing the game yourself. Now this is to some extent true with starcraft 2 too, but not to as big of a degree, that being said most people who are likely to watch LoL either play LoL, or have played hon\dota so its not that big of a problem.
The game itself is lacking a lot of things. Players can't really hos tournaments themselves since there is no ingame spectator mode currently (although in the works.) Replays are also lacking. Also, I don't know how to fix this or whatever but Currently, nobody at high level plays the match making for team ladders ( 5v5) they pretty much only play soloqueue, and sometimes practice 5v5 in skirmishes, but pretty much all the top teams practice very little 5v5. This is mainly because 5v5 queues are so long (Because so few teams are queueing) so i don't know how to fix this.
Another thing that can't really be fixed but is sort of a problem for growing an e-sports, is that this is a 5v5 (or 3v3, but 5v5 is the more popular\competetive format) game. So in terms of prize money, everything is 5 times less\split by 5, and in terms of traveling expenses etc etc everything is 5 times larger.
Anyway I am pretty tired of people complaining about low skillcap and easymode. Even looking at the top tier players they still make a lot of obvious mistakes, so they are obviously not skill capped. And if they are just bad then just get together 4 non bad people and reach the so easy to reach skillcap and go collect some free prize money.
As with most video games more complicated than Tic Tac Toe, no human will EVER, EVER. <- Ever. be skillcapped in LoL. Even if people still play LoL competetivly 50 years from now, a person who has spent 10 hours a day practicing hardcore LoL every day for 50 years, will still have room for improvement. Being skillcapped would mean never making a mistake, being able to perfectly calculate everyones HP\how much damage your and their abiltiies do (including damage reductions) and never mistake your potential damage output versus there, never miss a creep, never get into a bad position, list goes on, and it will never be achieved by a human.
Last but not least balance is not a problem in LoL. The Pick/Ban is reasoanbly fair for both teams, if you pick a bad setup against the opposing team then that is your own fault.
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On July 27 2011 21:58 eVolvE342 wrote:
ive been curious.. is dota2 going to be played in sc2's custom games? if so it could bring a new crowd of people into the starcraft community. With the success of LoL its all the more reason why blizzard (if blizzard is even making dota2? im kind of confused) needs to make sure dota 2 is legit.
DOTA 2 is made by Valve and is completely unrelated to Blizzard, so no. It will be on steam though.
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