EPTEDIT: Also the amount of things taken into effect over dota within the game are much higher than LoL. You need a much stronger foundation to build on because of the extra mechanics required to succeed in the game.
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Do not turn this into a (insert game here) vs. LoL argument. It's about LoL and Riot's success, which is great for ESPORTS. - Jibba | ||
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Alaron
United States225 Posts
EDIT: Also the amount of things taken into effect over dota within the game are much higher than LoL. You need a much stronger foundation to build on because of the extra mechanics required to succeed in the game. | ||
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Vinski
505 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:15 Alaron wrote: Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator. Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game. People who think that all esports are about pure skill are dumb. Just because it has a lower skill ceiling doesn't mean teamwork and strategy is taken out. THE BEST TEAMS WILL WIN WITH STRATEGY AND TEAMWORK. Which is NEVER EVER capped by anything such as a "skill ceiling". Such a stupid word you can never be fully capped. Can always get smarter and better no matter what. | ||
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locodoco
Korea (South)1615 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:15 Alaron wrote: Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator. Done posting here. Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game. zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG] if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it | ||
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locodoco
Korea (South)1615 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:20 Alaron wrote: I have nothing against RIOTs achievement. It needs to be posted here because LoL should not get the competitive attention it is getting mainly because there are much more interesting games to spectators out there. A game that rewards skill over time played should be THE competitive game. HOW IS THAT A BASELESS POINT? EDIT: Also the amount of things taken into effect over dota within the game are much higher than LoL. You need a much stronger foundation to build on because of the extra mechanics required to succeed in the game. skill over time played? if ur talking about runes and levels............ /facepalm -.-;; | ||
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Alaron
United States225 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:26 locodoco wrote: skill over time played? if ur talking about runes and levels............ /facepalm -.-;; Runes. 20% passive crit on any hero at the START of the game no items required. Heroes. I need to buy every hero I want to play AND buy runes just for that hero. How in the world is that a facepalm? Do I need to find the post somewhere on the interwebs that was posted on the LoL forums that states you NEED to play something like 9000 games JUST to afford every hero(0 runes)? | ||
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TerdToss
46 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:00 Alaron wrote: Are you kidding me? Your still riding it being a harder game. With a higher skill ceiling. If you are serious god help you or you haven't touched DotA/HoN. Easy mode DotA was never considered difficult because it removes all the skillful parts of DotA. Carries ran rampant and any int hero was a waste of a pick. Im really not interested in grinding 30 more games to hit 30 in LoL just so I can have to grind a ton more to buy runes to be competitive. HoN has it all right there and ready to go. That is why it is and always will be a much better eSport. EDIT: Also to the post above me its a double edged sword, LoL players do the exact same thing. LoL will never be as competitive as a real DotA clone. Simply because of fundamentals. I never said it wasn't a great game to play casually. I play it as i've said. But I will never care about rating or anything of the sort in that game unless I don't have to grind/pay money for it. Yeah, I was a pretty high ranking LoL and HoN player(still am). Page 5 of the 5x5 solo ladder for LoL and 1800+ rating in HoN and I`d have to agree that HoN definitely is way harder. IMO if you take the HoN game and put RIOT on it instead of S2games, that would make for one sick game. Can`t wait for DOTA2. | ||
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TerdToss
46 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:25 locodoco wrote: zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG] if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it Chu switched to LoL because he wants to be a professional gamer (and he should) and he just didn`t see that happening in HoN, mostly because how bad S2games sucks. More money in LoL was the only reason. | ||
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Johnny Business
Sweden1251 Posts
And I can tell you that high level (1900) HoN is as hard as high level LoL just different. | ||
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locodoco
Korea (South)1615 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:30 Alaron wrote: Runes. 20% passive crit on any hero at the START of the game no items required. Heroes. I need to buy every hero I want to play AND buy runes just for that hero. How in the world is that a facepalm? Do I need to find the post somewhere on the interwebs that was posted on the LoL forums that states you NEED to play something like 9000 games JUST to afford every hero(0 runes)? ur saying that lol rewards time played over skill that applies to the people below level 30 playing vs level 30 people which only happens in normals so ur right if u just started playing lol it rewards time played over skill oh wait it doesnt cuz u only get matched vs people that are the same level as u unless u purposely request at the very start of making ur account to match people higher leveled than u so at the very lowest skill level league of legends rewards time played over skill and by some chance ur a lol prodigy and u can play at tournament levels even before u hit level 30 with a set of runes u shouldnt be complaining about that but oh wait lol has a seperate tourney client for serious games with everything unlocked tl dr : lol rewards time played over skill at the very very very lowest level of play,unless u play at that level its not really a viable arguement | ||
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
However, this brings a massive influx of people to the competitive side of gaming, which is incredible and hopefully another step on the way to competitive gaming (or at least gaming in general) becoming socially acceptable, and maybe even a little mainstream. | ||
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locodoco
Korea (South)1615 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:35 TerdToss wrote: Chu switched to LoL because he wants to be a professional gamer (and he should) and he just didn`t see that happening in HoN, mostly because how bad S2games sucks. More money in LoL was the only reason. i personally talked to chu and that's not what he said he said hon was getting stale and chu isnt making a cent in lol atm,and it looks like his still playing lol over hon | ||
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Dulkan
Germany24 Posts
They don't sell power, they sell convenience(less time investment, extra rune pages) and vanity (skins). You never feel forced to buy anything, because you can get everything by playing. A point that most f2p-games miss. I have to wonder about the people who say the system is bad, because they cannot have every champion. Sure compared to HoN a character costs a lot more, but why even have all characters? In LoL you'll only buy champions you like and you ones you haven't played yet you can try out for free after a few weeks and then decide if you like them. Even if you were to own all characters, there are now nearly 80, with an average of 30min per game, that's 40 hours just to play everyone once. Personally I only own 14 champions, but have tried nearly everyone. In HoN you'll get all heroes, but you won't play many of them more than once because you don't like them. Also regarding all the flames that LoL is so incredibly casual, imbalanced and easy. I'd like to see a showmatch between five of those people and a LoL-proteam. Maybe even the odds a bit by letting the challengers choose any champion they want and dictating which champs the pros play. Let's see how this would turn out. | ||
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Alaron
United States225 Posts
To the post above. 9k games to unlock just the heroes. Sounds pretty sick and rewarding. That is totally what you should do. Play those 9000 games. EDIT: Also LoL is the least skilled MOBA in existence. That does make it an easier game and does require less of everything to be good at. Done here don't bother quoting me. | ||
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Microchaton
France342 Posts
99% of the skill in 99% of the games & sports = related to "time played" and training, and not "granted from God talent". LoL is mechanically easier than DotA ? Sure. Is that a bad thing ? Why would it be ? Gives much more room for teamplay and actualy thinking. What is amazingly annoying in DotA is that someone good at last hitting (and who picks a hero good at it, lololol razor / prenerf corrupted disciple) literally wins the game just for that reason in quite a lot of occurences. The "runes are imbalanced" argument is also ridiculous. EVERYBODY has them if they bother being optimal at lvl 30. Not all of them, granted, unless they play much, but way enough to pick your choices. Runes are also GREAT personalisation and add even more depth / possibilities, help vary item builds and team compositions... Also, just FYI, there is a "tournament" realm for tournament games where EVERY PLAYER HAS EVERY HERO AND RUNES FOR FREE. And every people saying "if I bothered I'd be #1 LoL player" is completely mistaken and/or trolling, it's like people who say that in golf for instance. Does it require any physical prowess ? Not really. Is it about "time played" more than anything ? Yes, definitely. Is that an unskilled game with a low skill cap ? Absolutely not. NO ONE is anywhere near LoL's skillcap even at top ELO. NO ONE. As far as the games as a whole go, it's much more comparable to real "popular" team sports than popular "e-Sports" (starcraft, quake...). There is less "zomg" action going on all the time, it's a LOT about positioning, general awareness, choices (football manager = picks :D) and experience of who can do what. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying LoL is the ultimate esport or whatever. Several things are obviously lacking, and nothing will ever beat Quake 3 / Wolfenstein Enemy Territory in my book (not even brood war). | ||
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locodoco
Korea (South)1615 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:44 Alaron wrote: Your failing to get my point. You cannot have what you want to play without spending a ridiculous amount of time inside the game or shelling out money. Did you forget you also need to buy the runes to play the character? How is that not time rewarding. I can fully page out 1 6300 hero by the time I reach level 30. Is that fair in your mind? W/E not bothering with this anymore LoL players are so stubborn its funny. To the post above. 9k games to unlock just the heroes. Sounds pretty sick and rewarding. That is totally what you should do. Play those 9000 games. EDIT: Also LoL is the least skilled MOBA in existence. That does make it an easier game and does require less of everything to be good at. Done here don't bother quoting me. what a horrible game u have to either spend time on it or spend money to get what u want gg lol sucks | ||
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
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LastDance
New Zealand510 Posts
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose. What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago. Yea I think it's sad that DotA players keep denying LoL's legitimacy. | ||
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ToT)OjKa(
Korea (South)2437 Posts
And now I come to this thread and...well fucking done. I cannot believe how fucking stupid some of you are and your "arguments". NotJack, why would you even make that post? There is literally 0 effort in that piece and just obvious flamebait. "herp derp let me go to the last page and post a really stupid comment herp derp." If you're going to say something like that, then how about do it in a reasonable manner? How about explaining why you think that and how about not insulting the people that have a forum on TL dedicated to LoL? I hope the mods have a field day in this thread because such poor quality posts are not allowed on this site. If you want to type stupid, shallow comments then go to IGN or Gamespot and make yourself at home with the rabid console war fanboys. edit: apologies if this is a bit loaded but the comments on http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/118/1184319p1.html got me riled up (I am bakabear on there) last night and now I see such poor and ignorant posts on here too...just pisses me off... | ||
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
On July 27 2011 19:08 ToT)OjKa( wrote: Man, I read the comment section on IGN about an eSports Starcraft 2 article and the comments were SO fucking retarded. And now I come to this thread and...well fucking done. I cannot believe how fucking stupid some of you are and your "arguments". NotJack, why would you even make that post? There is literally 0 effort in that piece and just obvious flamebait. "herp derp let me go to the last page and post a really stupid comment herp derp." If you're going to say something like that, then how about do it in a reasonable manner? How about explaining why you think that and how about not insulting the people that have a forum on TL dedicated to LoL? I hope the mods have a field day in this thread because such poor quality posts are not allowed on this site. If you want to type stupid, shallow comments then go to IGN or Gamespot and make yourself at home with the rabid console war fanboys. edit: apologies if this is a bit loaded but the comments on http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/118/1184319p1.html got me riled up (I am bakabear on there) last night and now I see such poor and ignorant posts on here too...just pisses me off... I'm not saying that to get people mad, it just breaks my heart how much things have changed. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 27 2011 18:25 locodoco wrote: zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG] if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it I don't agree with anything you're saying. I don't think it has a "different skill cap", I think it's pretty much obviously a lower skill ceiling and it is fundamentally an easier game, it's not just a mechanical difference, DotA/HoN are genuinely more punishing and a system like denies pits players in a lane actively against each other making the laning phase more active and demanding in terms of focus. All the things you mentioned for LoL's skill cap actually exist on DotA and HoN as well, and at the top level of play they exist in pretty much the same amount as LoL. Decision making, teamwork, pre-game preparation, jungle ganks, end game strats...? Are you serious? Those are your higher skill cap choices for LoL. Decision making exists in equal amounts in both games, teamwork exists in equal amounts in both games at the high level of play, pre-game preparation is equally importation(minus games having the possibility to almost be decided at champion selection in LoL more often), jungle ganking is skill between jungle and rune control, end game strats exist equally in both games. All of these things you cite exist in HoN and DotA as well, and then there's all the stuff it has on top of that. On July 27 2011 18:51 locodoco wrote: what a horrible game u have to either spend time on it or spend money to get what u want gg lol sucks I've talked about the nature of micro-transactions at length earlier, but quite simply there is no middle ground, it's great for mass market appeal but it's not for everyone because you genuinely do have to choose between spending copious amounts of time keeping up with unlocks or spending massive amounts of money to get what you want. After spending 35 dollars and playing a ridiculous amount of games regularly, I would still find myself saving up for champions and I don't really like having to do that. This isn't really relevant to competitive play though, it's more of a personal note. | ||
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