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Do not turn this into a (insert game here) vs. LoL argument. It's about LoL and Riot's success, which is great for ESPORTS. - Jibba |
On July 27 2011 13:58 Daozzt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 11:22 bumatlarge wrote:On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote:
DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA.
Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago. Good DOTA players will always deny anything! + Show Spoiler + Haha, I read this entire thread, this was the only thing that made me smile  Anyway, as much as I dislike the game, it's great that LoL is attracting so many players. Not only is it good for e-sports, but also when DotA 2 comes out, a lot more people will be familiar with the moba (ugh) genre and take notice of the game.
Just stand with me and call it an AoS, damnit...
MobA applies to so many different games that keeping it applicable to this genre is silly. Stand with me!
But seriously, the success of LoL is great, hopefully Dota 2 explodes with comparable or better results.
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I think LoL caters perfectly to the casual audience and that's why it's so successful. It doesn't turf the newer players out like HoN/DotA do (despite both being way more challenging and satisfying to get good at - there is no doubt on this point).
As an esport though, I really don't feel this game fits the bill (unless some heavy modification was made for top level play, a pro mod if you will). Even watching it, it seems way too gratuitous to players who are under-performing. Nonetheless for a free game it certainly is fun .
Can't wait for DotA 2 to come out and be the primary esport for this genre^^
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What's so cool about the LoL community and player base is that everyone that plays LoL is tied for #1 player in the entire world.
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On July 27 2011 14:00 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 13:58 Daozzt wrote:On July 27 2011 11:22 bumatlarge wrote:On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote:
DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA.
Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago. Good DOTA players will always deny anything! + Show Spoiler + Haha, I read this entire thread, this was the only thing that made me smile Anyway, as much as I dislike the game, it's great that LoL is attracting so many players. Not only is it good for e-sports, but also when DotA 2 comes out, a lot more people will be familiar with the moba (ugh) genre and take notice of the game. Just stand with me and call it an AoS, damnit... MobA applies to so many different games that keeping it applicable to this genre is silly. Stand with me! But seriously, the success of LoL is great, hopefully Dota 2 explodes with comparable or better results.
a few of us in the hon/dota thread came up with the name "Team Role Playing Strategy" or TRPS, which kind of fits for all the games since AoS doesnt make sense for anybody who didnt know what Aeon of Strife was (its more of the insider name anyway) and is more telling of the gameplay than "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena". RP because it draws aspects from RPGs and everybody on the team has a different "role", strategy because it derives from RTS and has very similar elements, and team cause you're with a team just like in team deathmatch/CTF. the only games TRPS doesnt fit with are the ones that are controlled by one guy, but those arent really played anyway, and the nice thing is that all these games except for maybe BLC can fit under it
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On July 27 2011 12:06 Snackysnacks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 11:55 ThaddeusK wrote:
having blink on every character is so much worse than having it be an item. Bushes are the most uninteresting form of juking in existence. Having champions does relate to power in draft mode, at least having the 20-30 characters that are worth playing is important. Having a 300 game tutorial to get to lvl 30 is honestly the worst part of the IP/RP/XP system.
Bashing the game with 800 games played. Its available to every character, such as its available for purchase in dota (except pudge/VS) Opinion. You should have at least 20 champions by level 30, you should also have experenced play with them at least. The Level 1-30 thing as i mentioned as a tutorial should be your playtime to get used to the mechanics/champions, it is irrelevant to say its imbalanced due to everyone being in a practice league of skill (minus the perfect world of smurfing) Most mechanic complaining in league of legends, even from experienced players like you, is mostly unwarranted. Its all in game design and how the developers want the flow to go. Then again, matchmaking would be hell at this popular of a stage, trying to bring in a market of people who never even played a top-down RTS. Is it really bad for the game to have a "long" tutorial untill people hit a balanced level? Especially when they want to "grow" the game and its E-Sports community? Riot games does everything in its power to cater to the fanbase and customers, AMAZING customer support. Active and talking developers. Amazing people on the staff from all talents (including Blizzard employee's) Then again, this will recieve opinionated bash, and the second i mention the employee's are from World of warcraft design and War3 Balancing people will mock how they do not know how to design fun/popular games that bring in a competitive crowd. Threads of success should be met with praise, not all this random game bashing. Is this even a League of legends Lets discuss balance or why this game sucks thread? Or a League of legends hits major growth for a "well Designed game" As you will now bash me for this last line of comment.
sure the blink dagger is available to everyone, but do you really think that as many people would take blink as an item as take it as a summoner spell? the problem with flash in LoL is that everyone takes it, not just the champions who rely on it for whatever reason.
I absolutely think that it is bad for a game to force you to do a 150hour long tutorial, i admit that it helps people new to the game because it cuts down on the complexity, but someone coming from DotA/HoN and even some people who are new to DotA likes dont need that much tutorial and it really doesn't need to be forced on people, i hated the 20 min long tutorial in quake live because i already knew how to play, let alone a 150 hour one.
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the game just make a lot of SENSE.
new champion rotations ease new players into the game
IP/RP system for managing their income, and give player a sense of progression
Good match making, sensible ladder system.
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i have watched a few "high level" LoL matches and it seems boring to me...
I understand sometimes some matches in dota/hon/lol would be a safe carry vs carry fest but the ones i've seen in LoL so far has always been low on action and more on neutral creep farming. Maybe I've been watching the wrong VoDs...
I dont think LoL is as fun as dota/hon anyways. I think its too simplistic but I think if i never had played dota/hon previously, I probably would enjoy LoL more... but having played dota/hon, can't seem to like it.
The number of players and prize money in tourneys does seem intriguing...
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Just goes to show that games that are noob-friendly only succeed nowadays. Even Starcraft 2 was dumbed down to an extent(still requires more skill than 99% of the games) for a bigger fan base.
Black Ops, League of Legends getting all this attention even though they are not quality games.
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On July 27 2011 14:28 Kluey wrote:
Just goes to show that games that are noob-friendly only succeed nowadays. Even Starcraft 2 was dumbed down to an extent(still requires more skill than 99% of the games) for a bigger fan base.
Black Ops, League of Legends getting all this attention even though they are not quality games.
you're comparing black ops to league of legends?
i couldn't think of the word "compare" for 10 seconds because i was in disbelief of how outlandish that is. companies can't make games just for hardcore people, you need either a dedicated hardcore community (fightin games) or you need to cater to SOME casuals.
and i'll have you know league of legends is much more well produced then 95% of the games produced. i bet you've ever even played it before
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On July 27 2011 01:29 Synwave wrote:
I really liked the game but eventually got turned off by the sheer abusiveness of the player base. It was rarely even directed at me (used to be a DoTA player so I dont feed etc) but it finally drove me away.
These are interesting numbers though. I may have a peek back in it to see if they've done anything to clear up/suspend abusive accounts.
I had no idea it had gotten this large!
Abusiveness like general BM?
I agree. I'm working on super secret project which aims to replace humans on the internet. Bots will infiltrate internet and impersonate human beings but be good mannered. Okay I lie, I'm not working on it.
Also DotA players should give a bit of slack to LoL simply because Guinsoo (which helped make DotA all stars what it is today) is also the guy behind LoL.
Arguably Icefrog revamped and optimized a lot of stuff (thanks to Vexorian and other WC3 modders) but Guinsoo still built the foundation (okay that was Eul but he made the foundation better. Though i'm only talking about DotA specifically, I know the genre existed before).
It's good to hear LoL is doing well.
As for the community - Unfortunately that's the case with most online communities (though it affects games with mandatory team vs team more than 1v1 due to teammates playing the blame game 95% of the time).
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On July 27 2011 15:07 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 14:28 Kluey wrote:
Just goes to show that games that are noob-friendly only succeed nowadays. Even Starcraft 2 was dumbed down to an extent(still requires more skill than 99% of the games) for a bigger fan base.
Black Ops, League of Legends getting all this attention even though they are not quality games. you're comparing black ops to league of legends? i couldn't think of the word "compare" for 10 seconds because i was in disbelief of how outlandish that is. companies can't make games just for hardcore people, you need either a dedicated hardcore community (fightin games) or you need to cater to SOME casuals. and i'll have you know league of legends is much more well produced then 95% of the games produced. i bet you've ever even played it before
well produced is that what those graphics qualify as.
Its easy mode dota with items bought with time played. How is that not a casual game?
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lol I don't really care how many people play LoL; doesn't change the fact that it still sucks.
User was warned for this post
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On July 27 2011 14:13 ThaddeusK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 12:06 Snackysnacks wrote:On July 27 2011 11:55 ThaddeusK wrote:
having blink on every character is so much worse than having it be an item. Bushes are the most uninteresting form of juking in existence. Having champions does relate to power in draft mode, at least having the 20-30 characters that are worth playing is important. Having a 300 game tutorial to get to lvl 30 is honestly the worst part of the IP/RP/XP system.
Bashing the game with 800 games played. Its available to every character, such as its available for purchase in dota (except pudge/VS) Opinion. You should have at least 20 champions by level 30, you should also have experenced play with them at least. The Level 1-30 thing as i mentioned as a tutorial should be your playtime to get used to the mechanics/champions, it is irrelevant to say its imbalanced due to everyone being in a practice league of skill (minus the perfect world of smurfing) Most mechanic complaining in league of legends, even from experienced players like you, is mostly unwarranted. Its all in game design and how the developers want the flow to go. Then again, matchmaking would be hell at this popular of a stage, trying to bring in a market of people who never even played a top-down RTS. Is it really bad for the game to have a "long" tutorial untill people hit a balanced level? Especially when they want to "grow" the game and its E-Sports community? Riot games does everything in its power to cater to the fanbase and customers, AMAZING customer support. Active and talking developers. Amazing people on the staff from all talents (including Blizzard employee's) Then again, this will recieve opinionated bash, and the second i mention the employee's are from World of warcraft design and War3 Balancing people will mock how they do not know how to design fun/popular games that bring in a competitive crowd. Threads of success should be met with praise, not all this random game bashing. Is this even a League of legends Lets discuss balance or why this game sucks thread? Or a League of legends hits major growth for a "well Designed game" As you will now bash me for this last line of comment. sure the blink dagger is available to everyone, but do you really think that as many people would take blink as an item as take it as a summoner spell? the problem with flash in LoL is that everyone takes it, not just the champions who rely on it for whatever reason. I absolutely think that it is bad for a game to force you to do a 150hour long tutorial, i admit that it helps people new to the game because it cuts down on the complexity, but someone coming from DotA/HoN and even some people who are new to DotA likes dont need that much tutorial and it really doesn't need to be forced on people, i hated the 20 min long tutorial in quake live because i already knew how to play, let alone a 150 hour one.
If you're good you'll be matching with players who are also good. Just because you've played DotA doesn't mean you're a god at LoL either since you have no idea what the 80 something champions do. I think the best part about the lower levels is that nobody is gonna have any champions or if they do it'll be pretty rare. You get to learn what the champion rotation (10 champions) does that week instead of getting demolished by a different champion every game and can't even figure out what you're doing wrong. Deleting 90% of the learning curve for newer players means they'll get better faster because they have to learn less things at once. The objective based gameplay of LoL also takes some getting used to rather than DotA. If you're winning every game cause you're that awesome and LoL is so easy you'll be level 10 or 15 in a small number of games and then you have maybe half the game minus the champions.
Your first game of DotA you were probably some feeding guy who got blasted and flamed by your entire team and told to uninstall wc3. There's people like that on League as well, but if you lose a lot of games you'll be matching people just like you who have no idea what they're doing. It was only ~125 wins to get to level 30. Tier 1 runes (which are easily affordable) give half the bonuses of tier 3 runes and the runes themselves give very small bonuses so you can do cute things like activate Akali's passive at level 1 or get a small advantage in lane. You could alternately do something that gives you a stronger mid/late game through per level runes. Until you're in the upper bounds of ranked play it's very doubtful that your runes are going to win you the game.
Saying it's a forced 150 hour tutorial is a gross exaggeration.
On July 27 2011 13:09 carltron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 11:46 Pratoss wrote:
Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well. lol... I play tanks exclusively on LoL and with a bunch of measely lvl1 mana/regen runes I can own early game so hard without ever worrying about mana. It's laughable if you compare it to Dota/HoN where you actually have to manage your spell usage very very carefully while maintaing a safe distance from the enemy.
in DotA/HoN you only have enough mana to cast a couple spells normally early on and they can mean death for somebody. In League you can cast that spell a bunch more times but if it hits you once you lose a proportional amount of hitpoints so you don't get blown up in two seconds. It's a lot more interesting having to dodge skill shots the entire time you're in lane instead of waiting for that perfect moment to faceroll your keyboard to 100->0 somebody. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my opinion.
The only thing I agree with is that Flash should be removed. At the very least they made it stop dodging projectiles awhile back ^_^ Knowing if people have summoners up or not is part of the game though that adds to the "depth" or "skill ceiling" of the game.
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On July 27 2011 15:13 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:29 Synwave wrote:
I really liked the game but eventually got turned off by the sheer abusiveness of the player base. It was rarely even directed at me (used to be a DoTA player so I dont feed etc) but it finally drove me away.
These are interesting numbers though. I may have a peek back in it to see if they've done anything to clear up/suspend abusive accounts.
I had no idea it had gotten this large! Abusiveness like general BM? I agree. I'm working on super secret project which aims to replace humans on the internet. Bots will infiltrate internet and impersonate human beings but be good mannered. Okay I lie, I'm not working on it. Also DotA players should give a bit of slack to LoL simply because Guinsoo (which helped make DotA all stars what it is today) is also the guy behind LoL. Arguably Icefrog revamped and optimized a lot of stuff (thanks to Vexorian and other WC3 modders) but Guinsoo still built the foundation (okay that was Eul but he made the foundation better. Though i'm only talking about DotA specifically, I know the genre existed before). It's good to hear LoL is doing well. As for the community - Unfortunately that's the case with most online communities (though it affects games with mandatory team vs team more than 1v1 due to teammates playing the blame game 95% of the time).
Guinsoo is one of several important people they have working in the design team of LoL, which is why it's probably performing so well.
Their head of design is Tom "Zileas" Cadwell (an ex sc1 "pro" player, no less) who previously worked for blizzard and worked on wc3 and wow.
Their head of champion design is Ryan "Morello" Scott who previously worked at Arenanet on GW2.
They also just recently (like within the last month) hired Christina Norman from bioware
source: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/07/12/mass-effect-gameplay-lead-christina-norman-now-at-riot-games/2
So their design department is pretty awesome
http://riotgames.com/company/design is apparently their team
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On July 27 2011 15:17 writer22816 wrote:
lol I don't really care how many people play LoL; doesn't change the fact that it still sucks.
What a quality post. Sure adds a lot of discussion to this thread.
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the game is free, nothing surprising about something that anyone can play and is actually kinda fun.
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Australia18228 Posts
On July 27 2011 14:13 ThaddeusK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 12:06 Snackysnacks wrote:On July 27 2011 11:55 ThaddeusK wrote:
having blink on every character is so much worse than having it be an item. Bushes are the most uninteresting form of juking in existence. Having champions does relate to power in draft mode, at least having the 20-30 characters that are worth playing is important. Having a 300 game tutorial to get to lvl 30 is honestly the worst part of the IP/RP/XP system.
Bashing the game with 800 games played. Its available to every character, such as its available for purchase in dota (except pudge/VS) Opinion. You should have at least 20 champions by level 30, you should also have experenced play with them at least. The Level 1-30 thing as i mentioned as a tutorial should be your playtime to get used to the mechanics/champions, it is irrelevant to say its imbalanced due to everyone being in a practice league of skill (minus the perfect world of smurfing) Most mechanic complaining in league of legends, even from experienced players like you, is mostly unwarranted. Its all in game design and how the developers want the flow to go. Then again, matchmaking would be hell at this popular of a stage, trying to bring in a market of people who never even played a top-down RTS. Is it really bad for the game to have a "long" tutorial untill people hit a balanced level? Especially when they want to "grow" the game and its E-Sports community? Riot games does everything in its power to cater to the fanbase and customers, AMAZING customer support. Active and talking developers. Amazing people on the staff from all talents (including Blizzard employee's) Then again, this will recieve opinionated bash, and the second i mention the employee's are from World of warcraft design and War3 Balancing people will mock how they do not know how to design fun/popular games that bring in a competitive crowd. Threads of success should be met with praise, not all this random game bashing. Is this even a League of legends Lets discuss balance or why this game sucks thread? Or a League of legends hits major growth for a "well Designed game" As you will now bash me for this last line of comment. sure the blink dagger is available to everyone, but do you really think that as many people would take blink as an item as take it as a summoner spell? the problem with flash in LoL is that everyone takes it, not just the champions who rely on it for whatever reason. I absolutely think that it is bad for a game to force you to do a 150hour long tutorial, i admit that it helps people new to the game because it cuts down on the complexity, but someone coming from DotA/HoN and even some people who are new to DotA likes dont need that much tutorial and it really doesn't need to be forced on people, i hated the 20 min long tutorial in quake live because i already knew how to play, let alone a 150 hour one.
That's the thing though, it's really necessary for those 150 hours (maybe less) of League of Legends for a player to truely understand the in and outs of 80% of the champions, how they are countered or why they become "OP" easily, whether Baron or dragon or tower or acing a team is more of a priority at which stage of the game etc. I've played as many games as you and I can honestly say that majority of my understanding of how the game works is due to experience playing around with different heroes and facing and trying to beat "OP" heroes or how to co-ordinate a split push or early baron.
Then again, this process is also the downfall of competitive LoL as every single HoN/DotA/MOBA-genre player come into this game with an arrogant attitude and think that the same playstyle in other games apply to LoL, but aren't willing to learn from each game they play because they're "OWNING AND GOING 20/3 EVERY GAME".
On July 27 2011 15:23 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 13:09 carltron wrote:On July 27 2011 11:46 Pratoss wrote:
Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well. lol... I play tanks exclusively on LoL and with a bunch of measely lvl1 mana/regen runes I can own early game so hard without ever worrying about mana. It's laughable if you compare it to Dota/HoN where you actually have to manage your spell usage very very carefully while maintaing a safe distance from the enemy. in DotA/HoN you only have enough mana to cast a couple spells normally early on and they can mean death for somebody. In League you can cast that spell a bunch more times but if it hits you once you lose a proportional amount of hitpoints so you don't get blown up in two seconds. It's a lot more interesting having to dodge skill shots the entire time you're in lane instead of waiting for that perfect moment to faceroll your keyboard to 100->0 somebody. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my opinion. The only thing I agree with is that Flash should be removed. At the very least they made it stop dodging projectiles awhile back ^_^ Knowing if people have summoners up or not is part of the game though that adds to the "depth" or "skill ceiling" of the game.
Actually, at 'higher' ranked games, laning is so passive as the damage dealt by most spells at low levels is outhealed by passive regen and leveling up. Flash should remain in the game, as it's one of the only thing in the game that requires individual skill (flash-dodging a skillshot, flashing in to AoE stun tibbers, flash+burst combo to kill someone) and is a significant part in the mindgames that are played throughout laning and teamfights.
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in DotA/HoN you only have enough mana to cast a couple spells normally early on and they can mean death for somebody. In League you can cast that spell a bunch more times but if it hits you once you lose a proportional amount of hitpoints so you don't get blown up in two seconds. It's a lot more interesting having to dodge skill shots the entire time you're in lane instead of waiting for that perfect moment to faceroll your keyboard to 100->0 somebody. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my opinion.
The only thing I agree with is that Flash should be removed. At the very least they made it stop dodging projectiles awhile back ^_^ Knowing if people have summoners up or not is part of the game though that adds to the "depth" or "skill ceiling" of the game.
Come on man, at least speak some truth if you are exaggerating. If you are out of position in hon/dota during laning you can get heavily punished (creeps denied, harassed, nuked, etc), and sometimes dying is a part of that. I know it might sound outlandish to you because in LoL there's like 1 death in the first 10 minutes. Calling hon/dota "facerolling" is dumb as hell, and equally ironic since LoL is widely considered the easier game to play.
Also, flash is retarded. It's a get out of jail free card on a cooldown that rewards people for fucking up, or gives them free initiation. Imagine if port key or dagger came standard on every hero in hon/dota. It breaks the game. I can't believe flash has survived since closed beta, when I actually played and thought LoL was pretty fun.
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as of now i have played around 1.8k games on LoL... its damn fun
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On July 27 2011 15:53 Inflicted_ wrote:
Then again, this process is also the downfall of competitive LoL as every single HoN/DotA/MOBA-genre player come into this game with an arrogant attitude and think that the same playstyle in other games apply to LoL, but aren't willing to learn from each game they play because they're "OWNING AND GOING 20/3 EVERY GAME".
Even people who haven't played HoN/DotA are like that. It pissed me off that literally 99% of the people I queued up with when I still played solo queue would play the same type of carry and still expect to go 20/3 and win just because they did that from like level 1-25. It doesn't work that way and I ended up losing all the time because they play so selfish and greedy (I only play tanks and supports). It's still the same when queuing up in solo games at level 30. Except now I lose and it's always my fault that we lose team fights when all the carries initiate at the most retarded times and I have to bail them out. This is why I never play alone, ever.
Only in ranked games do the teams actually make sense in my experience (except one time the other team had 3 AD carries and 2 AP carries; we stomped them obviously).
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