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hey i was just wondering if anyone (orlandu maybe?) could explain how high level wc3 games are?
i really only understand the basics of it, like unit counters, heroes and experience, creeping, and that there don't seem to be as many expansions as in SC, its much more many small-battles oriented
but then i see people commenting about race vs race matchups and i'm completely lost there
is there a system similar to the conventional belief of T>Z>P>T for the races in warcraft? are there any races that seem to be imbalanced or underbalanced? is it extremely race specific or can you use the same general strategy for all matchups? do the maps play a really big part like in starcraft? are there any "cheese" strats or even that many different possible strats in games?
this type of information interests me 
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yeah I would like to know how the balance issues is nowadays.. before its was very unbalanced when I played,,,, 1.01-1.07 or something..
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Ok, this is a very broad topic and open to a lot of interpretation, so I'm going to try to respond to the best of my ability, but if some things remain unanswered or you still have questions, just ask.
Because WarCraft 3 is still evolving, you have a constantly changing meta-game that you don't see in Brood War anymore. That means the old T>Z>P>T (not saying that's true, but regardless many believe it so for our purposes we'll assume it's true) logic doesn't stay put in WarCraft 3. For example:
1.12, the first real Frozen Throne patch. Orcs dominated Night Elves with their Gruntapult pushes (Grunts+Demolishers), since NE had mostly unarmored core units until Bears came into play, which was rare. Then, somewhere along in 1.12, someone discovered the power of the BeastMaster. Qazzi, aka io., is credited for popularizing this strategy the most. But anyway, with the BeastMaster, NE finally had the meat they needed to stand up to the power of the Gruntapult. And with the BM's flying Thunderhawk, you could easily pick off Demolishers from afar. Not to mention at level 3, the hawk would decimate Orc burrows.
The BeastMaster eventually got nerfed slightly, and people began to change strategies, so the matchup evened out quite a bit. Since then the BeastMaster has not been nerfed, but he has come back into popularity lately, and makes things extremely hard for Orc once again.
Currently, the race > race looks something like this:
NE>Orc>Undead/Human, with nothing being truly difficult for Night Elf.
For the Night Elf vs Undead matchup, it was once believed skilled Undead players dominated all Night Elf players. This is because of MaDFroG, who during and after his stay in Korea, had widely popularized the Ghoul to tier2 dual crypt Gargoyle strategy. It was very micro-intensive, but many people began to copy this strategy, and for awhile NE had quite a problem with Undead.
Then you enter the fast expansion era. People, for one reason or another, began to realize the power of a fast expansion as Night Elf. Wizard helped to make this quite popular in the American community, and some European communities, as this was around the time when he won Acon4 and was a major player. Wizard had adopted a special strategy vs Undead long before, but now it became quite popular. He used the Keeper of the Grove to keep the Undead at bay long enough to set up a fast expansion, and once that was up, he could power out Archers, Dott's, and Hippogryphs/Chimaeras later on if needed. Even MaDFroG's strategy could not successfully take it down.
Some players such as Aether discovered ways to beat this strategy if timed perfectly, but as we all know that's easier said than done. This involved skipping Gargoyles, and going for tier3 much faster for frenzied Ghouls and a DreadLord, and right after frenzy was in, blitzing the expansion with everything you've got. It would usually work if you got there fast enough, but even so, it did not always work, especially if something went wrong in the process of getting there.
Needless to say, it was a very difficult match-up for Undead.
Blizzard then nerfed the KotG's entangle, which made the harassment much weaker. So, people stopped using the Keeper of the Grove for those purposes. Fast expansions were a bit easier to stop, and the matchup evened up a bit. Tavern maps were still pretty difficult though even without fast expansions, as a powerful combination of the BeastMaster and Pandaren Brewmaster had been discovered as well, which still reigns supreme to this day.
Once the FireLord was added, things began to change as well. Some players used him against Undead as Night Elf, but nothing groundbreaking occurred because the BeastMaster already accomplished much of the same thing. But... what did happen was, for the Night Elf vs Orc matchup, thanks to Koreans like Spirit_Moon, a devilish strategy comprised of the BeastMaster/FireLord combo emerged. This strategy had twice the power of the old BeastMaster danger of 1.12. Double the summons, double the danger.
Orc does not have great dispel, and the dispel that they do have requires Shamans or Spirit Walkers. Both are a different tech pattern than is traditionally desired vs Night Elf. So, going BM/FL forces an Orc to get up a Spirit Lodge, taking away from production and space elsewhere needed for raw power.
During WCG 2004, an American by the name of Shortround exploded through the brackets with a competely new strategy for Night Elf vs Human. This was the FireLord first with archers, followed by a Panda.
This didn't typically work before even with the BeastMaster because of Defend. However with the FireLord, he's ranged AND he has a skill called Incinerate, which adds +1 damage to each consecutive attack he does. So, say his damage is 20. 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25... It adds up. It allowed Night Elf to keep the Footmen at bay with his Archers and summons until the Panda came in. The Panda would Drunken Haze the Footmen and eliminate all chances for the Footmen to do damage, so the Human is forced to retreat. This gives the Night Elf a huge advantage as he can get to Bears, and Dryads, much safer.
After people saw those replays, most everyone started doing it for awhile. It's died down a bit, but is still a popular strategy and somewhat difficult for Humans to stop.
As for other matchups, Undead vs Human has always been pretty even. Undead vs Orc however has not.
In the old days, one might complain Undead were too hard for Orc because of nukes, etc. People discovered a powerful strategy in bloodlusted Wyverns which turned the tides and made things a bit more even, but still this strategy could be stopped without any "imbalanace" being cried. Later on, people discovered an even better way to execute this strategy. This was because of the reign of Destroyers vs Orc in 1.15. A bug was found with Destroyers, which let Destroyers completely dominate Orc burrows, making the only plausible counter to this imbalance teching for Wyverns and Bats. People got good at it.
After Destroyers got their nerf however, things shifted somewhat towards the balance. But then other strategies evolved, including an overwhelming popularity of Raiders. Raiders are commonly seen in just about every Orc matchup now except vs Human, and with the Chain Lightning and Shockwave combination Orc holds, it's a living hell for Undead, so these days you will often hear Orc > Undead.
Some Undeads adopted a Crypt Lord first strategy in order to power creep and overwhelm the Orc with beetles, but it's not commonly seen on high levels of play.
That leaves us with Orc vs Human. At one point, people complained Sorceresses dominated Orcs too much, then people complained that Orc harass dominated Human too much. There was some truth to this, which was made clear thanks to 4K.Grubby, who manhandled every Human on the market. Using a FarSeer and the wolves, you could successfully take down a Human's tower quite easily and kill many peasants, slowing down a Human's production and making him stop his creeping to defend. Human players had a lot of trouble with this, so Blizzard changed some things.
After that, the matchup was pretty even for awhile, except a new strategy became quite popular. Grunts with Shaman, and a Demolisher too. This is the standard Orc combo used today. Shamans obtain the skill Lightning Shield at Initiate, so smart Orc players abused this would often decimate Human peasants and Human Riflemen/Casters, if the Human was not/is not smart. This strategy is often seen today, so many believe Orc > Human, but this isn't necessarily true. A skilled Human player can stop this, but they do have to play well. This is why many lower-levelled players cry imbalance.
As for maps, maps play a HUGE part in balance. Tavern maps are very strong NE maps, due to the BeastMaster/FireLord/Panda/Naga Sea Witch. Lost Temple is a strong Human map because of the close expansions which Humans can militia creep quickly and set up an expansion and towers without much trouble at all. When a Human loses in a BO3, they ALWAYS choose this map if it's available.
The maps shift the strategies quite a bit, so the metagame evolves differently for each map as well.
The metagame is constantly evolving, and you'll see many more changes I'm sure. But without writing a 10 page report, I think this is a good summary of how it comes into play in WarCraft 3. Basically, most players will copy strategies they see top players such as Grubby, Zacard, Moon, etc do, and that's when a strategy becomes popular and people begin to cry imbalance. It isn't until people try new strategies that the metagame changes again.
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On February 01 2005 16:58 Orlandu wrote:
stuff
listen to this guy
he's dead-on about the 1.12 era :D
<3 shortround, madfrog's UvNE of yore..
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I still remember when MaDFroG returned to Europe for a few days and took on Deadman in a best of 5 series. This was when Deadman was dominating the Northrend ladder, the best player around for sure, even consistently beating Grubby. Though, one player was not there... the former #1 of Northrend, MaDFroG himself.
So when he returned to Europe, it was only natural that those two titans went head-to-head. I only remember one of the replays, but it was on Gnoll Wood, and it was just breath-taking how well MaDFroG played. You could see the raw skill in everything did, it was just amazing.
As for Shortround, much <3 to him. At the WCG USA Finals 2004, I was behind him during some of his games and had a few discussions with him. He's one of the nicest players I've ever met in real life, along with Kai/rS.KOoba. It was really great seeing him do so well at WCG.
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Orlandu -
thanks a ton for the detailed descriptions of how the wc3 metagame has been evolving, i should've realized it hasn't settled yet heh, it was a very interesting report on all of he matchups wow =)
edit: do any of you also know stuff like the most popular races, what people consider "interesting matchups" (like i think a lot of people enjoy watching/playing TvZ) or boring matchups (are mirrors enjoyable in wc3?)
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So what are some good strats for the races, and could you explain why, like you say lightning shield owns humans but im a noob at wc3 so could you explain why it owns them. thanks
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United States37500 Posts
Orlandu <3 <3
Most popular match ups would probably be NE vS UD in the Korean scene and Hu vS UD in Europe. I'm making a general statement because NE and Hu are the most popular races for Asia and Europe, respectively. Mirrors are decent. NE and O mirrors I can bear watching and playing. Fairly fast paced and doesn't require as much teching. Very micro intenstive however. Hu and UD mirrors on the other hand is more macro focused and almost ends with both sides reaching tier 3.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 01 2005 18:43 chrusher97 wrote:
So what are some good strats for the races, and could you explain why, like you say lightning shield owns humans but im a noob at wc3 so could you explain why it owns them. thanks
That's a very vague question. If you could at the very least tell us the race that you play and certain matchups you're interested in learning, I'm sure we can go from there.
LS > Hu, simply because of the fact that peasant/militias have to run away from LS'ed grunts or wolves. To stand a fight a LS'ed unit is almost suicide for the Human economy. And running away damages the Human econ as well because of the amount of time lost from evading LS.
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Yea LS and FS + TC attack at tier 2 timed correctly is a gg move- especially with good items. At mid-level play, I think the game is determined right then by whatever mistakes people make in handling that attack. FS and TC at tier 2 will be able to put out an obscene amount of damage on your units- LS will do the same. I'm not sure, but I've seen two ways to deal with this- turtle behind good building placement (not possible if they have demolisher) or try to rush surround a hero to force him to port and buy you time. Any additions anyone?
Edit: I'm not sure if pros do this, but having a scroll of healing = negates 1 CL + 1 SW at that stage in the game. So creeping a shop early and getting the scroll before that battle seems pretty critical.
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On February 01 2005 18:40 Locked wrote:
edit: do any of you also know stuff like the most popular races, what people consider "interesting matchups" (like i think a lot of people enjoy watching/playing TvZ) or boring matchups (are mirrors enjoyable in wc3?)
This will differ a lot I think.
Popular matchups IMO would be NE vs Undead or Human vs Undead, for a lot of the reasons NeoIllusions pointed out.
My personal favorites are NE vs Orc, Human vs Undead, and Human vs Night Elf. Human vs Orc isn't bad either.
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On February 01 2005 18:43 chrusher97 wrote:
So what are some good strats for the races, and could you explain why, like you say lightning shield owns humans but im a noob at wc3 so could you explain why it owns them. thanks
Looks like everyone explained the LS deal already... But you're gonna have to be more specific with what kind of races you're looking at, otherwise we'd be writing for pages and pages =]
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United States37500 Posts
On February 01 2005 19:30 naventus wrote:
Yea LS and FS + TC attack at tier 2 timed correctly is a gg move- especially with good items. At mid-level play, I think the game is determined right then by whatever mistakes people make in handling that attack. FS and TC at tier 2 will be able to put out an obscene amount of damage on your units- LS will do the same. I'm not sure, but I've seen two ways to deal with this- turtle behind good building placement (not possible if they have demolisher) or try to rush surround a hero to force him to port and buy you time. Any additions anyone?
Edit: I'm not sure if pros do this, but having a scroll of healing = negates 1 CL + 1 SW at that stage in the game. So creeping a shop early and getting the scroll before that battle seems pretty critical.
Lvl 2 shockwave + lvl 1 chain light = dead peasants. You won't even have time to activate a SoH. Not that you would want to anyways. Scrolls are pretty expensive and most players wouldn't use them just to heal peasants in general. Better building placement is probably a more viable solution.
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very intresting read orlandu! although i dont play wc3 any more its nice to know what is happening with the game 
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The game is actually pretty closely balanced, considering one month Hu vs orc is considered an easy matchup, and then a few months later (without any balance changes really) orc DOMINATES hu
I remember it was widely accepted that human > orc in TFT beta, just kill the burrows with defended footmen, they said... What can orc do? Well, before they'd put all peons in burrows hoping to kill off the footmen, now they will put 1 in and have the rest repair while grunts/FS/wolves kill them...
I think all races have "owned" another race at one point or another 
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United States37500 Posts
I still say there could be some racial balances to be made...
But you're right, all races have owned another race at some point.
OvNE: Gruntapult
NEvO: Beastmaster
UDvO: Destroyers
OvUD: Wyv/bats
Hu generically do rifle/caster, except in mirror. Mass air in some instances.
NEvH: Bears
HvNE: Mass range, esp mortars
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Wait so what would you suggest to do when the FS TC comes to your town... militia early = gg you. Just hide behind buildings and try to pick off grunts until they do no damage? What if it's a small map and they make a move w/ demolishers as well? Are mortars a good idea in this case?
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United States37500 Posts
It really depends on the situation and timing. Best way imho to counter solo FS/TC AoE'ing your lumber or gold peasants is building placement, like I said before. Keep your building clumped well so there is only one way in and out. Look at replays of SK.Insomnia and his build if you're not sure what I'm talking about. If the two heroes manage to get in, it's necessary to stall them from reaching a clump of your peasants. Militia two peasants and unit block as well as you can. Run the rest of your peasants to the other side of your base if you can manage.
If Orc attacks with demos, try to flank. I wouldn't recommend mortars in HvO. Mortars are good in HvNE and against mass towers.
At best, you lose about three or four to AoE spells alone. You lose a lot more peasants if you can't run the FS/TC out of your base. They do quite a lot of damage with regular attacks alone.
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The problem is that I can't visualize a situation where the HU army is superior to the O army before gryphons.. unless somehow you creepjacked the hell out of him and he's like 10 food behind. Unless the secret is making those early kills, but I don't think that's feasible at all to do at a consistent basis. So I guess the question is- how do you force the O to back off at tier 2?
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Your best bet is going to be lots of Riflemen/Priests/Sorceresses. You don't want to bring militia in unless it's absolutely necessary. If a LS goes off, try to use it to your advantage by thrusting whatever unit it landed on into his units, if possible. If he puts it on a Grunt, and heads into your army, take it down asap with focus fire. If he puts it on his TC, move away ASAP unless he's at or below half HP and has no potions. If that's the case, bolt the fucker and focus him to hell and back. Without the TC, Orc will be hurting a lot (assuming you didn't lose your entire army already).
Sorceresses are a must because it will severely slow down his Grunts and Shaman and make sure you can pick off as many units as possible.
I would advise not hiding in your base unless it's absolutely necessary, because LS will wreak havoc in close quarters like that. You'll want open ground to engage him in. Use the Riflemen to pick off Grunts, with Water Elementals as meat. Have plenty of those, because the more of them he purges, the less LS shots he can get off. Make sure the MK is using his spells as often as possible... Clapping in clusters, and bolting weak grunts trying to escape. Or, if you think you can do it without heavy losses, try a Bolt/surround on the FS.
If you're not able to make any progress against eachother, then get some Knights or Gryphons into the action. You probably won't need Mortar Teams, unless he is doing a lot of towering.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 01 2005 20:42 Orlandu wrote:
Your best bet is going to be lots of Riflemen/Priests/Sorceresses. You don't want to bring militia in unless it's absolutely necessary. If a LS goes off, try to use it to your advantage by thrusting whatever unit it landed on into his units, if possible. If he puts it on his TC, or a Grunt, and heads into your army, take it down asap with focus fire.
Sorceresses are a must because it will severely slow down his Grunts and Shaman and make sure you can pick off as many units as possible.
I would advise not hiding in your base unless it's absolutely necessary, because LS will wreak havoc in close quarters like that. You'll want open ground to engage him in. Use the Riflemen to pick off Grunts, with Water Elementals as meat. Have plenty of those, because the more of them he purges, the less LS shots he can get off. Make sure the MK is using his spells as often as possible... Clapping in clusters, and bolting weak grunts trying to escape. Or, if you think you can do it without heavy losses, try a Bolt/surround on the FS.
If you're not able to make any progress against eachother, then get some Knights or Gryphons into the action. You probably won't need Mortar Teams, unless he is doing a lot of towering.
I wouldn't advise FF'ing on a TC. Seems very risky cause you'll be taking so much damage from the grunts. If you have MK and bolt, then maybe. Otherwise, I would recommend moving your rifs away from the LS'ed cow. I've been a happy Orc player a number of games because my TC gets focused on, kill two or three rifs with my grunts and just TP pass from FS to TC and win that battle.
Rifle/caster is probably best bet for Hu. It's cookie cutter strat, I agree, but it's the most effective against non-mirror situations for Hu. AM first, footie, creep, fend off, harass if you have good micro (this is based on timing and intuition, know when O players tech and run in and rape some burrows). Tech to tier two, build smith. Once tier 2, two arcanes and you should be fairly safe there. Know when to fend off harassments when militia only and when to bring your army back to help. Don't TP just because you don't want to walk.
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On February 01 2005 20:49 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2005 20:42 Orlandu wrote:
Your best bet is going to be lots of Riflemen/Priests/Sorceresses. You don't want to bring militia in unless it's absolutely necessary. If a LS goes off, try to use it to your advantage by thrusting whatever unit it landed on into his units, if possible. If he puts it on his TC, or a Grunt, and heads into your army, take it down asap with focus fire.
Sorceresses are a must because it will severely slow down his Grunts and Shaman and make sure you can pick off as many units as possible.
I would advise not hiding in your base unless it's absolutely necessary, because LS will wreak havoc in close quarters like that. You'll want open ground to engage him in. Use the Riflemen to pick off Grunts, with Water Elementals as meat. Have plenty of those, because the more of them he purges, the less LS shots he can get off. Make sure the MK is using his spells as often as possible... Clapping in clusters, and bolting weak grunts trying to escape. Or, if you think you can do it without heavy losses, try a Bolt/surround on the FS.
If you're not able to make any progress against eachother, then get some Knights or Gryphons into the action. You probably won't need Mortar Teams, unless he is doing a lot of towering. I wouldn't advise FF'ing on a TC. Seems very risky cause you'll be taking so much damage from the grunts. If you have MK and bolt, then maybe. Otherwise, I would recommend moving your rifs away from the LS'ed cow. I've been a happy Orc player a number of games because my TC gets focused on, kill two or three rifs with my grunts and just TP pass from FS to TC and win that battle. Rifle/caster is probably best bet for Hu. It's cookie cutter strat, I agree, but it's the most effective against non-mirror situations for Hu. AM first, footie, creep, fend off, harass if you have good micro (this is based on timing and intuition, know when O players tech and run in and rape some burrows). Tech to tier two, build smith. Once tier 2, two arcanes and you should be fairly safe there. Know when to fend off harassments when militia only and when to bring your army back to help. Don't TP just because you don't want to walk.
Oh, didn't realize I wrote it that way. Yeah focusing the TC can be VERY bad, always move away from the TC if he has LS on him, unless he's at or below half HP and has no potions.
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Bolt grunts, FF grunt, micro... do kind of hit and runs
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Ud v Ne is very attrition based, so if you have low attention span and understanding of the game, it is pretty boring for you. the reason is that the NE can't fight the UD towers at his base, but the UD can't fight the NE anywhere, unless ud has heal scrolls. the ne's panda AoE is simply too much to fight w/o heal scroll.
now, the problem becomes that heal scroll costs 250 gold, and obviously the more battles you choose to partake in with ud, the more heal scrolls you're using up all the time, against the always superior NE econ of at least 2 bases to your 1. the most logical way of handling this then, is to build up your army while hit-and-running or creeping until it is quite huge, so that your 1 heal scroll is healing 24+ units instead of say, 12. this way, you get more units from not having to buy so many heal scrolls but also more bang for your buck in each heal scroll you use. but because the smart ud player will do this, you won't be seeing many major fights until the ud decides it's the right time before ne can reach "god" tech (aka chims, bears, all that good stuff not on his tier2 list of units such as dryads, dotts)
ud vs hu is a pretty cool mu. lots of hero action and micro involved. heman vs sweet for 3rd place at eswc had the crowd cheering a lot and myself thinking 'whoa'
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DON'T, just don't mention ud vs ne k? 90% of my ladder games are against ne and i hate it! NE has sooooooo many ways to own me that I can't even think about it *shudder*, sole warden owns (once saw a replay: lev 10 warden vs 70 food ud army w 3 heroes, warden won oO) and with panda it's gg right away in most cases.
But to my point, don't you think that since spellbreakers came in LS is no longer a threat for hum? It's more help for him than for the one who uses it, shams generally sux now against hu.
Will post here later.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 14 2005 01:09 Manit0u wrote:
DON'T, just don't mention ud vs ne k? 90% of my ladder games are against ne and i hate it! NE has sooooooo many ways to own me that I can't even think about it *shudder*, sole warden owns (once saw a replay: lev 10 warden vs 70 food ud army w 3 heroes, warden won oO) and with panda it's gg right away in most cases.
But to my point, don't you think that since spellbreakers came in LS is no longer a threat for hum? It's more help for him than for the one who uses it, shams generally sux now against hu.
Will post here later.
Um, no one has said anything about LS from shamen. Why LS is f'ing scary for Humans is early game from a Wand of LS item drop...
And Shamen don't suck against Hu. Their primary use is for purge. Purging against WEs (-500 hp to summons, hi), purge to pick off heroes or units (or even zepplins). Bloodlust is never worth it against Hu and LS from shamen depends on what kind of caster/anti-caster Hu has made.
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EPT
