The problem is that I can't visualize a situation where the HU army is superior to the O army before gryphons.. unless somehow you creepjacked the hell out of him and he's like 10 food behind. Unless the secret is making those early kills, but I don't think that's feasible at all to do at a consistent basis. So I guess the question is- how do you force the O to back off at tier 2?

Orlandu

China2450 Posts

February 01 2005 11:42 GMT

#22

Your best bet is going to be lots of Riflemen/Priests/Sorceresses. You don't want to bring militia in unless it's absolutely necessary. If a LS goes off, try to use it to your advantage by thrusting whatever unit it landed on into his units, if possible. If he puts it on a Grunt, and heads into your army, take it down asap with focus fire. If he puts it on his TC, move away ASAP unless he's at or below half HP and has no potions. If that's the case, bolt the fucker and focus him to hell and back. Without the TC, Orc will be hurting a lot (assuming you didn't lose your entire army already).

Sorceresses are a must because it will severely slow down his Grunts and Shaman and make sure you can pick off as many units as possible.

I would advise not hiding in your base unless it's absolutely necessary, because LS will wreak havoc in close quarters like that. You'll want open ground to engage him in. Use the Riflemen to pick off Grunts, with Water Elementals as meat. Have plenty of those, because the more of them he purges, the less LS shots he can get off. Make sure the MK is using his spells as often as possible... Clapping in clusters, and bolting weak grunts trying to escape. Or, if you think you can do it without heavy losses, try a Bolt/surround on the FS.

If you're not able to make any progress against eachother, then get some Knights or Gryphons into the action. You probably won't need Mortar Teams, unless he is doing a lot of towering.

NeoIllusions

United States37500 Posts

February 01 2005 11:49 GMT

#23

On February 01 2005 20:42 Orlandu wrote:
Your best bet is going to be lots of Riflemen/Priests/Sorceresses. You don't want to bring militia in unless it's absolutely necessary. If a LS goes off, try to use it to your advantage by thrusting whatever unit it landed on into his units, if possible. If he puts it on his TC, or a Grunt, and heads into your army, take it down asap with focus fire.

Sorceresses are a must because it will severely slow down his Grunts and Shaman and make sure you can pick off as many units as possible.

I would advise not hiding in your base unless it's absolutely necessary, because LS will wreak havoc in close quarters like that. You'll want open ground to engage him in. Use the Riflemen to pick off Grunts, with Water Elementals as meat. Have plenty of those, because the more of them he purges, the less LS shots he can get off. Make sure the MK is using his spells as often as possible... Clapping in clusters, and bolting weak grunts trying to escape. Or, if you think you can do it without heavy losses, try a Bolt/surround on the FS.

If you're not able to make any progress against eachother, then get some Knights or Gryphons into the action. You probably won't need Mortar Teams, unless he is doing a lot of towering.

I wouldn't advise FF'ing on a TC. Seems very risky cause you'll be taking so much damage from the grunts. If you have MK and bolt, then maybe. Otherwise, I would recommend moving your rifs away from the LS'ed cow. I've been a happy Orc player a number of games because my TC gets focused on, kill two or three rifs with my grunts and just TP pass from FS to TC and win that battle.

Rifle/caster is probably best bet for Hu. It's cookie cutter strat, I agree, but it's the most effective against non-mirror situations for Hu. AM first, footie, creep, fend off, harass if you have good micro (this is based on timing and intuition, know when O players tech and run in and rape some burrows). Tech to tier two, build smith. Once tier 2, two arcanes and you should be fairly safe there. Know when to fend off harassments when militia only and when to bring your army back to help. Don't TP just because you don't want to walk.

Orlandu

China2450 Posts

February 01 2005 11:51 GMT

#24

On February 01 2005 20:49 NeoIllusions wrote:

Show nested quote +

Oh, didn't realize I wrote it that way. Yeah focusing the TC can be VERY bad, always move away from the TC if he has LS on him, unless he's at or below half HP and has no potions.

SoleSteeler

Canada5414 Posts

February 01 2005 11:56 GMT

#25

Bolt grunts, FF grunt, micro... do kind of hit and runs

requiem

United States268 Posts

February 04 2005 01:00 GMT

#26

Ud v Ne is very attrition based, so if you have low attention span and understanding of the game, it is pretty boring for you. the reason is that the NE can't fight the UD towers at his base, but the UD can't fight the NE anywhere, unless ud has heal scrolls. the ne's panda AoE is simply too much to fight w/o heal scroll.

now, the problem becomes that heal scroll costs 250 gold, and obviously the more battles you choose to partake in with ud, the more heal scrolls you're using up all the time, against the always superior NE econ of at least 2 bases to your 1. the most logical way of handling this then, is to build up your army while hit-and-running or creeping until it is quite huge, so that your 1 heal scroll is healing 24+ units instead of say, 12. this way, you get more units from not having to buy so many heal scrolls but also more bang for your buck in each heal scroll you use. but because the smart ud player will do this, you won't be seeing many major fights until the ud decides it's the right time before ne can reach "god" tech (aka chims, bears, all that good stuff not on his tier2 list of units such as dryads, dotts)

ud vs hu is a pretty cool mu. lots of hero action and micro involved. heman vs sweet for 3rd place at eswc had the crowd cheering a lot and myself thinking 'whoa'

Manit0u

Poland17238 Posts

February 13 2005 16:09 GMT

#27

DON'T, just don't mention ud vs ne k? 90% of my ladder games are against ne and i hate it! NE has sooooooo many ways to own me that I can't even think about it *shudder*, sole warden owns (once saw a replay: lev 10 warden vs 70 food ud army w 3 heroes, warden won oO) and with panda it's gg right away in most cases.

But to my point, don't you think that since spellbreakers came in LS is no longer a threat for hum? It's more help for him than for the one who uses it, shams generally sux now against hu.

Will post here later.

NeoIllusions

United States37500 Posts

February 13 2005 16:51 GMT

#28

On February 14 2005 01:09 Manit0u wrote:
DON'T, just don't mention ud vs ne k? 90% of my ladder games are against ne and i hate it! NE has sooooooo many ways to own me that I can't even think about it *shudder*, sole warden owns (once saw a replay: lev 10 warden vs 70 food ud army w 3 heroes, warden won oO) and with panda it's gg right away in most cases.

But to my point, don't you think that since spellbreakers came in LS is no longer a threat for hum? It's more help for him than for the one who uses it, shams generally sux now against hu.

Will post here later.

Um, no one has said anything about LS from shamen. Why LS is f'ing scary for Humans is early game from a Wand of LS item drop...

And Shamen don't suck against Hu. Their primary use is for purge. Purging against WEs (-500 hp to summons, hi), purge to pick off heroes or units (or even zepplins). Bloodlust is never worth it against Hu and LS from shamen depends on what kind of caster/anti-caster Hu has made.