honestly i pretty much only know BW and fighters so BW and GG/mvc2/melee for fighters. i hardly even play smash but once u get past the "its a kids party game", its a pretty deep game. i just hate the smash community from my area in tournaments :/
On May 13 2011 03:00 fishjie wrote: 3rd strike is a horrible game. I was unfortunate enough to watch the 3rd strike finals at Evo once. The final match was basically two chun players walking back and forth, and crouching a bunch. Neither player of course wanting to commit to an attack because a parry would mean death. Throw parry attack is a terrible rock paper scissor mechanic. And then I watched the Super Turbo finals which was night and day difference. And of course Marvel was awesome as usual.
If you like pros from Japan playing 3s, you would really enjoy watching them play Super Turbo which requires perfect execution, with none of the boring snoozefest of 3s.
lol i bet it was the fun fun fun nuki/justin chun mirrors. lemme just say don't judge an entire game on a mirror match (which happens to be really fuckin boring)
But in the end Melee had very little depth for a fighting game. It was all about SHFL'ing and wave dashing along with timing nair/dair/spiking. Thats not really depth thats just uses of very precise timings on frame links but its nowhere on the level of standard fighters.
On May 12 2011 07:44 Eppa! wrote: Some of the harder games that I know of are: CS 1.6, BW, SSBM, DotA all require huge amount of time to learn the basics of competitive play.
SSBM, no. You can learn basicallye verything there is to the competitive aspects of the game in a day, but its just the execution and footsies of it that take a while to learn, but the execution and footsies of other fighting games absolutely tears SSBM a new hole.
Pretty much accepted by the fighting game community as truth for the current gen of games
Where is SSBM for this? Obviously SSBB is there, but Melee is completely different and way more challenging. I really don't think that the footsies and execution of MvC3 can compare to SSBM. MvC3 is easy mode. MvC2 is a better thing to compare to.
On May 12 2011 10:00 Wasteland wrote: Street Fighter III: Third Strike -- Don't take this as SSF4/SSF4AE hating, or 3S elitism. The parry system, as well as secret arts requires a bit more mechanical skill than setting up a situation where ultras even things up without much thought (a la: Ryu random DP FADC ultra )
Watching pro Japanese dudes play 3S is awesome.
No its not. 3rd strike is a horrible game. I was unfortunate enough to watch the 3rd strike finals at Evo once. The final match was basically two chun players walking back and forth, and crouching a bunch. Neither player of course wanting to commit to an attack because a parry would mean death. Throw parry attack is a terrible rock paper scissor mechanic. And then I watched the Super Turbo finals which was night and day difference. And of course Marvel was awesome as usual.
If you like pros from Japan playing 3s, you would really enjoy watching them play Super Turbo which requires perfect execution, with none of the boring snoozefest of 3s.
Third strike a horrible game, every time i will see a post from you i will ignore it lol.
honestly i pretty much only know BW and fighters so BW and GG/mvc2/melee for fighters. i hardly even play smash but once u get past the "its a kids party game", its a pretty deep game. i just hate the smash community from my area in tournaments :/
On May 13 2011 04:27 Zlasher wrote: Yeah I'd have put BB a little further right as well, those anime fighters actually require ridiculous execution.
its not as quite high as u'd imagine. i can teach u some braindead 400-500k pretty easily. haven't tried CS2 yet though
On May 13 2011 03:00 fishjie wrote: 3rd strike is a horrible game. I was unfortunate enough to watch the 3rd strike finals at Evo once. The final match was basically two chun players walking back and forth, and crouching a bunch. Neither player of course wanting to commit to an attack because a parry would mean death. Throw parry attack is a terrible rock paper scissor mechanic. And then I watched the Super Turbo finals which was night and day difference. And of course Marvel was awesome as usual.
If you like pros from Japan playing 3s, you would really enjoy watching them play Super Turbo which requires perfect execution, with none of the boring snoozefest of 3s.
lol i bet it was the fun fun fun nuki/justin chun mirrors. lemme just say don't judge an entire game on a mirror match (which happens to be really fuckin boring)
But in the end Melee had very little depth for a fighting game. It was all about SHFL'ing and wave dashing along with timing nair/dair/spiking. Thats not really depth thats just uses of very precise timings on frame links but its nowhere on the level of standard fighters.
you're forgetting a whole lot more stuff in Melee. i'm no melee expert, but what about shit like DI'ing and whatnot (akin to oki'ing or AA'ing in traditional fighters).
and do u really want to stack it up against the "standard" of fighters today? today's new generation of fighters are all watered down mechanics/execution. compare landing an mvc3 solo HG loop/dhc glitch and then mvc2 solo rom consistently. yea the top players are still top players and still win but new games now aren't the same :/
edit: i think i can see why melee ppl are so adamant/defensive when ppl don't call melee a deep game.
On May 12 2011 08:05 Seide wrote: TLDR: WoW PvP: pretty much a joke WoW PvE: pretty intricate at top level, and it is hard to place it.
This is hilariously backwards.
On topic: Obviously Brood War is the game played at the highest level.
For other genres, I like CPMA, Warsow, and Natural Selection (HL1 mod, awesome game) for FPS and obviously WoW for RPG
Skill caps are so insanely high for almost any competitive video game that it's not really even worth talking about. Nobody is skill capped in any competitive video game.
All you can really talk about I think is the level the game is played at and maybe the marginal skill increase on time invested at the highest level. Both of which are quite affected by how popular a game is.
Can't remember the exact name of the movement mod for some reason,( i called it promod, lol) but it was the most popular Q3 movement system for competitive play. And trust me, it is truly ridiculous how difficult it is to control. This guy makes it look easy, but the first time you play the game, you'll run, then jump forward, and be like, "OMG WTF, why am I moving SOOOO SLOW?" Then you practice for 2 weeks, and you can finally actually gain speed at all while jumping. 6 months later, you can finally hit the incredibly common B2R jump ~99% of the time. 8 years later, and if you've been practicing really hard, you can move like this.
Oh, yeah. And then you have to be able to aim/track/predict a target moving at ridiculous speeds, time 3 or more items very precisely, and also read your opponents mind.
in CPMA(promode) its actually way easier to move than in the original quake3 or OSP... CPMA is just faster but the movement is easier
In regards to PvE progression... The biggest factors to making a top raiding team is: 1) having good leadership and 2) attendance and progression time.
I'm actually in guild that's 13/13 (Insomnia on Tichondrius, various NrG members are in our guild as well). I raided with the 10man team thats 13/13 and I couldn't keep up because I didn't want to raid 4-5 days a week for 4+ hours.... Too much fucking time man. Our 10 man was also the 4th team to kill Sinesta in the world, btw.
It's also a known fact among hardcore old schoolers that top arena players make great raiders if they want to put the time into it. Mostly because it takes a ton of time to become a great arena player and master the fundamentals, if you transition those skills that make you a good player into a raider -- it just comes down to learning the script of the encounter.
False, just simply false. Over 90% of the community in no form, no matter the amount of practice could kill The Original Kael/Muru/Firefighter at the appropriate progression gear levels. People always hate on PvE events because they killed them 3 weeks later than the "elite" players. Well 3 weeks is an absurd amount of gear, and the progression (at least back when I played) was tuned so tightly that an extra 2-3 4 piece bonuses changes it from the skin of your teeth to a walk in the park for a good guild. The actual skill involved in WoW progression is obviously evident in the fact that Guilds like SK, Nihilum, etc were able to stay at the top so long.
Obviously the ability to dedicate hours figuring out encounters also is a factor, but if you put everyone on a clock, those guilds still come out ahead.
That being said I still agree with your points, just to a smaller degree.
honestly i pretty much only know BW and fighters so BW and GG/mvc2/melee for fighters. i hardly even play smash but once u get past the "its a kids party game", its a pretty deep game. i just hate the smash community from my area in tournaments :/
On May 13 2011 04:27 Zlasher wrote: Yeah I'd have put BB a little further right as well, those anime fighters actually require ridiculous execution.
its not as quite high as u'd imagine. i can teach u some braindead 400-500k pretty easily. haven't tried CS2 yet though
On May 13 2011 03:00 fishjie wrote: 3rd strike is a horrible game. I was unfortunate enough to watch the 3rd strike finals at Evo once. The final match was basically two chun players walking back and forth, and crouching a bunch. Neither player of course wanting to commit to an attack because a parry would mean death. Throw parry attack is a terrible rock paper scissor mechanic. And then I watched the Super Turbo finals which was night and day difference. And of course Marvel was awesome as usual.
If you like pros from Japan playing 3s, you would really enjoy watching them play Super Turbo which requires perfect execution, with none of the boring snoozefest of 3s.
lol i bet it was the fun fun fun nuki/justin chun mirrors. lemme just say don't judge an entire game on a mirror match (which happens to be really fuckin boring)
But in the end Melee had very little depth for a fighting game. It was all about SHFL'ing and wave dashing along with timing nair/dair/spiking. Thats not really depth thats just uses of very precise timings on frame links but its nowhere on the level of standard fighters.
i disagree with the very little depth part. i'm not fighting games expert and this is just my 2cents but when you take in how controllable your character is with fast falling/wavedashing/wavelanding and defensive skills like DI and powershield i don't think it's shallow. ledge game is pretty complex. ways to edgeguard, ways to recover, there are players that are known to be amazing at recovering or edgeguarding.
i think what it boils down to is that melee can be so complex, but the game was made for casuals in mind. so what happens is that a lot of depth is cut out because of how hard some things are to do and how easy and effective some things are. you can win a game as marth by just spacing and fsmashing/chain grabbing against a fox, you don't really even need to wavedash. skills don't yield immediate results which can be deceiving, and the game community is much too small/has no online play so the game progresses at a slow rate while at the same time has infinite amounts of complexion.
people haven't even explored tilts that much yet, there are still some technical things that people haven't been able to do yet. also stuff like tech-chasing. combos are not set, so they are based on di/percentage. then theres tech-chasing which is another layer. another notable skill is shield-pressure.
but the term skill is much too vague, and there will never be a cap. so i guess we're discussing games that haven't been explored to the max yet and have much potential to grow for players, and the players still have a long way to master the game.
edit: nadagast posted in this thread, he's a top tier wow player for those who don't know.
gunZ. +400 apm + aiming people moving halfway across ur screen in a second not to mention the crazy mind games when it comes to swordfights ( in a basic sense, block->hit->flip->block) HENCE HYPE FOR GUNZ II !
Why does skillcap matter? I do not think we have achieved a skillcap for 99 percent of the games out there. The only one I can think of on the top of my head is tic tac toe. So no need to get elitest about what games require skills and what games are for scrubs.
In regards to PvE progression... The biggest factors to making a top raiding team is: 1) having good leadership and 2) attendance and progression time.
I'm actually in guild that's 13/13 (Insomnia on Tichondrius, various NrG members are in our guild as well). I raided with the 10man team thats 13/13 and I couldn't keep up because I didn't want to raid 4-5 days a week for 4+ hours.... Too much fucking time man. Our 10 man was also the 4th team to kill Sinesta in the world, btw.
It's also a known fact among hardcore old schoolers that top arena players make great raiders if they want to put the time into it. Mostly because it takes a ton of time to become a great arena player and master the fundamentals, if you transition those skills that make you a good player into a raider -- it just comes down to learning the script of the encounter.
False, just simply false. Over 90% of the community in no form, no matter the amount of practice could kill The Original Kael/Muru/Firefighter at the appropriate progression gear levels.
Obviously the ability to dedicate hours figuring out encounters also is a factor, but if you put everyone on a clock, those guilds still come out ahead.
That being said I still agree with your points, just to a smaller degree.
Agreed, the gap in skill between a top 25 guild and a top 50 is astounding. I remember watching Cuties right after Cata dropped and being astounded at the things their tank, Mtlol, was able to do in gear that was no better than mine. Try and find some of their early kills on youtube, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
OG Kael/Muru/Mimi were similar, not only were the top guilds making up their own strats on the fly, they were doing so in marginally worse gear and being successful.
Another point I want to touch on is watching highly skilled raiders taking on first runs through new raids. The amount of time needed to down a new boss is so much less than any other guilds, raiders are improvising and for the most part just winging fights very few people have seen. The individual skill and decision making required to do that is pretty impressive.
honestly i pretty much only know BW and fighters so BW and GG/mvc2/melee for fighters. i hardly even play smash but once u get past the "its a kids party game", its a pretty deep game. i just hate the smash community from my area in tournaments :/
On May 13 2011 04:27 Zlasher wrote: Yeah I'd have put BB a little further right as well, those anime fighters actually require ridiculous execution.
its not as quite high as u'd imagine. i can teach u some braindead 400-500k pretty easily. haven't tried CS2 yet though
On May 13 2011 03:00 fishjie wrote: 3rd strike is a horrible game. I was unfortunate enough to watch the 3rd strike finals at Evo once. The final match was basically two chun players walking back and forth, and crouching a bunch. Neither player of course wanting to commit to an attack because a parry would mean death. Throw parry attack is a terrible rock paper scissor mechanic. And then I watched the Super Turbo finals which was night and day difference. And of course Marvel was awesome as usual.
If you like pros from Japan playing 3s, you would really enjoy watching them play Super Turbo which requires perfect execution, with none of the boring snoozefest of 3s.
lol i bet it was the fun fun fun nuki/justin chun mirrors. lemme just say don't judge an entire game on a mirror match (which happens to be really fuckin boring)
But in the end Melee had very little depth for a fighting game. It was all about SHFL'ing and wave dashing along with timing nair/dair/spiking. Thats not really depth thats just uses of very precise timings on frame links but its nowhere on the level of standard fighters.
you're forgetting a whole lot more stuff in Melee. i'm no melee expert, but what about shit like DI'ing and whatnot (akin to oki'ing or AA'ing in traditional fighters).
and do u really want to stack it up against the "standard" of fighters today? today's new generation of fighters are all watered down mechanics/execution. compare landing an mvc3 solo HG loop/dhc glitch and then mvc2 solo rom consistently. yea the top players are still top players and still win but new games now aren't the same :/
edit: i think i can see why melee ppl are so adamant/defensive when ppl don't call melee a deep game.
DI'ing becomes a reaction thing though since you always try to float yourself towards the middle of the screen so any time you get smashed or go flying you just move the sticks that way, it happens for everyone, thats why it was figured out.
I'd still say that the footsies and baiting involved in a game like AE still trumps melee since melee ended up being a run towards yoru opponent and hit a high priority move with fox, falco, puff, and the occasional marth (well, only ken).
honestly i pretty much only know BW and fighters so BW and GG/mvc2/melee for fighters. i hardly even play smash but once u get past the "its a kids party game", its a pretty deep game. i just hate the smash community from my area in tournaments :/
On May 13 2011 04:27 Zlasher wrote: Yeah I'd have put BB a little further right as well, those anime fighters actually require ridiculous execution.
its not as quite high as u'd imagine. i can teach u some braindead 400-500k pretty easily. haven't tried CS2 yet though
On May 13 2011 03:00 fishjie wrote: 3rd strike is a horrible game. I was unfortunate enough to watch the 3rd strike finals at Evo once. The final match was basically two chun players walking back and forth, and crouching a bunch. Neither player of course wanting to commit to an attack because a parry would mean death. Throw parry attack is a terrible rock paper scissor mechanic. And then I watched the Super Turbo finals which was night and day difference. And of course Marvel was awesome as usual.
If you like pros from Japan playing 3s, you would really enjoy watching them play Super Turbo which requires perfect execution, with none of the boring snoozefest of 3s.
lol i bet it was the fun fun fun nuki/justin chun mirrors. lemme just say don't judge an entire game on a mirror match (which happens to be really fuckin boring)
But in the end Melee had very little depth for a fighting game. It was all about SHFL'ing and wave dashing along with timing nair/dair/spiking. Thats not really depth thats just uses of very precise timings on frame links but its nowhere on the level of standard fighters.
you're forgetting a whole lot more stuff in Melee. i'm no melee expert, but what about shit like DI'ing and whatnot (akin to oki'ing or AA'ing in traditional fighters).
and do u really want to stack it up against the "standard" of fighters today? today's new generation of fighters are all watered down mechanics/execution. compare landing an mvc3 solo HG loop/dhc glitch and then mvc2 solo rom consistently. yea the top players are still top players and still win but new games now aren't the same :/
edit: i think i can see why melee ppl are so adamant/defensive when ppl don't call melee a deep game.
DI'ing becomes a reaction thing though since you always try to float yourself towards the middle of the screen so any time you get smashed or go flying you just move the sticks that way, it happens for everyone, thats why it was figured out.
I'd still say that the footsies and baiting involved in a game like AE still trumps melee since melee ended up being a run towards yoru opponent and hit a high priority move with fox, falco, puff, and the occasional marth (well, only ken).
One thing I will say for melle is that the best player almost always won. That counts for a lot in my book.
honestly i pretty much only know BW and fighters so BW and GG/mvc2/melee for fighters. i hardly even play smash but once u get past the "its a kids party game", its a pretty deep game. i just hate the smash community from my area in tournaments :/
On May 13 2011 04:27 Zlasher wrote: Yeah I'd have put BB a little further right as well, those anime fighters actually require ridiculous execution.
its not as quite high as u'd imagine. i can teach u some braindead 400-500k pretty easily. haven't tried CS2 yet though
On May 13 2011 03:00 fishjie wrote: 3rd strike is a horrible game. I was unfortunate enough to watch the 3rd strike finals at Evo once. The final match was basically two chun players walking back and forth, and crouching a bunch. Neither player of course wanting to commit to an attack because a parry would mean death. Throw parry attack is a terrible rock paper scissor mechanic. And then I watched the Super Turbo finals which was night and day difference. And of course Marvel was awesome as usual.
If you like pros from Japan playing 3s, you would really enjoy watching them play Super Turbo which requires perfect execution, with none of the boring snoozefest of 3s.
lol i bet it was the fun fun fun nuki/justin chun mirrors. lemme just say don't judge an entire game on a mirror match (which happens to be really fuckin boring)
But in the end Melee had very little depth for a fighting game. It was all about SHFL'ing and wave dashing along with timing nair/dair/spiking. Thats not really depth thats just uses of very precise timings on frame links but its nowhere on the level of standard fighters.
you're forgetting a whole lot more stuff in Melee. i'm no melee expert, but what about shit like DI'ing and whatnot (akin to oki'ing or AA'ing in traditional fighters).
and do u really want to stack it up against the "standard" of fighters today? today's new generation of fighters are all watered down mechanics/execution. compare landing an mvc3 solo HG loop/dhc glitch and then mvc2 solo rom consistently. yea the top players are still top players and still win but new games now aren't the same :/
edit: i think i can see why melee ppl are so adamant/defensive when ppl don't call melee a deep game.
DI'ing becomes a reaction thing though since you always try to float yourself towards the middle of the screen so any time you get smashed or go flying you just move the sticks that way, it happens for everyone, thats why it was figured out.
I'd still say that the footsies and baiting involved in a game like AE still trumps melee since melee ended up being a run towards yoru opponent and hit a high priority move with fox, falco, puff, and the occasional marth (well, only ken).
it's so much more complicated than that lol. run towards opponent and attack, you can get shieldgrabed , wavedash to create space then punish, etc etc. the baiting and footsies are mostly mind games. is that depth? because every single game has mind games.
di is reactionary with regards to survival, but di'ing to stop combos is a major key element. someone made a guide specifically on how to di away from captain falcon combos, listening the angles and showing the hitboxes.
Old video of an old version of the game but the movement in that game was soooo much fun.. Its a shame its still a niche game and never got to the same levels of popularity as quake. Still doing better than ut though....
civilization series. play that shit with real people and before you know it you've learned some important life lessons in doing whatever it takes to get filthy stinking rich and powerful.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IOcey.jpg)
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