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On June 28 2011 06:52 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +I don't see how this is gonna work without people getting furious over being beat because someone spent $10 on an upgrade they don't have. If you're getting furious over being beaten by someone who paid money for the game when you didn't, then you need to re-evaluate what makes you angry. You are playing the game for free.
Because it's not competition then.
If it's F2Pwn I'm out much to my disappointment. I refuse to play any game that tries to have an air of even competition and uses a F2Pwn business model. MMORPGs are one thing, they are created under the assumption of acquiring resources to gain combat advantage, but any match based game is a completely different story.
Persistence is a plague on competitive games and perhaps one of the biggest threats to esports imo.
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United States210 Posts
On June 28 2011 05:06 ProjectVirtue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 05:00 Tachion wrote:
The video actually looks pretty great I think. You can tell it's pretty fast paced and it obviously looks phenomenal. The physics could play a big part though so I'll have to wait and see on that.
The F2P part seems like it would kill the competitive aspect of the game ;/ You can't play on an even field when other people are getting 20% more energy from their packs and so on. A 'base' mod would have to be made(oh wait there is no client side modding) with only the minimum weapons/loadouts available, but then that could severely limit the options in competitive play.
I don't see how this is gonna work without people getting furious over being beat because someone spent $10 on an upgrade they don't have. I think the 20% more energy he might be referring to would be an alternate energy pack wherein instead of faster regen, you just have more energy at a burst interval when you need it. I'm thinking that they might have an option to "unlock" the game for a regular price like 50$ and you can still customize like normal back in T1 and T2
It works for LoL & BLC right? Those are both very competitive games that are free to play and only give you a part of the game for free on a rotating basis, unless you play a lot and unlock things for free.
The fact that it's trying to follow a similar model actually really excites me more about the game. If they tried to follow a traditional model I fear they'd fail in the massive shooter market especially being PC only. Of course it all depends on the details how they actually do it, but being able to spend <$60 without a serious recurring cost (that is, new stuff they release isn't NECESSARY), sounds way more enticing to me than paying $60 and hoping that it keeps popular enough to justify my purchase. Or better yet, pay nothing and play the rotating free classes to feel out how the playerbase will fill out, whether tournaments will form, etc etc, then decide if you want to pay for some stuff.
I think the biggest question that needs to be answered is how important buying newly released things will be to stay competitive. As far as I know, LoL have solved this problem haven't they? Or do competitive LoL players have to constantly pay money to stay competitive?
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On June 28 2011 07:00 okuraku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 05:06 ProjectVirtue wrote:On June 28 2011 05:00 Tachion wrote:
The video actually looks pretty great I think. You can tell it's pretty fast paced and it obviously looks phenomenal. The physics could play a big part though so I'll have to wait and see on that.
The F2P part seems like it would kill the competitive aspect of the game ;/ You can't play on an even field when other people are getting 20% more energy from their packs and so on. A 'base' mod would have to be made(oh wait there is no client side modding) with only the minimum weapons/loadouts available, but then that could severely limit the options in competitive play.
I don't see how this is gonna work without people getting furious over being beat because someone spent $10 on an upgrade they don't have. I think the 20% more energy he might be referring to would be an alternate energy pack wherein instead of faster regen, you just have more energy at a burst interval when you need it. I'm thinking that they might have an option to "unlock" the game for a regular price like 50$ and you can still customize like normal back in T1 and T2 It works for LoL & BLC right? Those are both very competitive games that are free to play and only give you a part of the game for free on a rotating basis, unless you play a lot and unlock things for free. The fact that it's trying to follow a similar model actually really excites me more about the game. If they tried to follow a traditional model I fear they'd fail in the massive shooter market especially being PC only. Of course it all depends on the details how they actually do it, but being able to spend <$60 without a serious recurring cost (that is, new stuff they release isn't NECESSARY), sounds way more enticing to me than paying $60 and hoping that it keeps popular enough to justify my purchase. I think the biggest question that needs to be answered is how important buying newly released things will be to stay competitive. As far as I know, LoL have solved this problem haven't they? Or do competitive LoL players have to constantly pay money to stay competitive?
I believe Lol competitions use unlocked servers run by Riot and/or other means of avoiding the F2Pwn nature of the game.
From a community run standpoint Lol is barely competitive at best (in terms of $ and tournaments, the streaming community is sizable) as most events Riot has a hand in.
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I won't mind paying a bit if the game is good. However, if they make some bull like, i pay for my loadout, but then they make a new loadout come out that's just like the one I have but BETTER, then forget it. And if they release new weapons every week then i'm also out.
Or at all actually, I don't really think I want new weapons being released. At least not anywhere near frequently.
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On June 28 2011 07:05 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 07:00 okuraku wrote:On June 28 2011 05:06 ProjectVirtue wrote:On June 28 2011 05:00 Tachion wrote:
The video actually looks pretty great I think. You can tell it's pretty fast paced and it obviously looks phenomenal. The physics could play a big part though so I'll have to wait and see on that.
The F2P part seems like it would kill the competitive aspect of the game ;/ You can't play on an even field when other people are getting 20% more energy from their packs and so on. A 'base' mod would have to be made(oh wait there is no client side modding) with only the minimum weapons/loadouts available, but then that could severely limit the options in competitive play.
I don't see how this is gonna work without people getting furious over being beat because someone spent $10 on an upgrade they don't have. I think the 20% more energy he might be referring to would be an alternate energy pack wherein instead of faster regen, you just have more energy at a burst interval when you need it. I'm thinking that they might have an option to "unlock" the game for a regular price like 50$ and you can still customize like normal back in T1 and T2 It works for LoL & BLC right? Those are both very competitive games that are free to play and only give you a part of the game for free on a rotating basis, unless you play a lot and unlock things for free. The fact that it's trying to follow a similar model actually really excites me more about the game. If they tried to follow a traditional model I fear they'd fail in the massive shooter market especially being PC only. Of course it all depends on the details how they actually do it, but being able to spend <$60 without a serious recurring cost (that is, new stuff they release isn't NECESSARY), sounds way more enticing to me than paying $60 and hoping that it keeps popular enough to justify my purchase. I think the biggest question that needs to be answered is how important buying newly released things will be to stay competitive. As far as I know, LoL have solved this problem haven't they? Or do competitive LoL players have to constantly pay money to stay competitive? I believe Lol competitions use unlocked servers run by Riot and/or other means of avoiding the F2Pwn nature of the game. From a community run standpoint Lol is barely competitive at best (in terms of $ and tournaments, the streaming community is sizable) as most events Riot has a hand in.
Well, everything besides skins is unlockable in LoL without paying any money. That helps to keep people competitive even if they don't pay, but it can be a large grind. On top of that, they also provide a tournament server for sufficiently big tournaments that has everything unliked (as Logo mentioned). Its a pretty casual-heavy game though, although its tough to say how much of this is due to the difficulty of having a competitive 5v5 ladder for solo players, and how much of this is due to its F2P-ness.
The thing I really dislike about Riot's approach, though, is that the microtransactions lead them to try and release as many new champions as possible. This means the game never really has a chance to 'settle' at any particular point, and thus everything is always changing. This would be something I wouldn't really want to happen to a Tribes game, as it would kill the development of skill in it. I'm curious to see if they've found a way to use microtransactions without constantly releasing things that change the balance of the game.
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On June 28 2011 09:08 tec27 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 07:05 Logo wrote:On June 28 2011 07:00 okuraku wrote:On June 28 2011 05:06 ProjectVirtue wrote:On June 28 2011 05:00 Tachion wrote:
The video actually looks pretty great I think. You can tell it's pretty fast paced and it obviously looks phenomenal. The physics could play a big part though so I'll have to wait and see on that.
The F2P part seems like it would kill the competitive aspect of the game ;/ You can't play on an even field when other people are getting 20% more energy from their packs and so on. A 'base' mod would have to be made(oh wait there is no client side modding) with only the minimum weapons/loadouts available, but then that could severely limit the options in competitive play.
I don't see how this is gonna work without people getting furious over being beat because someone spent $10 on an upgrade they don't have. I think the 20% more energy he might be referring to would be an alternate energy pack wherein instead of faster regen, you just have more energy at a burst interval when you need it. I'm thinking that they might have an option to "unlock" the game for a regular price like 50$ and you can still customize like normal back in T1 and T2 It works for LoL & BLC right? Those are both very competitive games that are free to play and only give you a part of the game for free on a rotating basis, unless you play a lot and unlock things for free. The fact that it's trying to follow a similar model actually really excites me more about the game. If they tried to follow a traditional model I fear they'd fail in the massive shooter market especially being PC only. Of course it all depends on the details how they actually do it, but being able to spend <$60 without a serious recurring cost (that is, new stuff they release isn't NECESSARY), sounds way more enticing to me than paying $60 and hoping that it keeps popular enough to justify my purchase. I think the biggest question that needs to be answered is how important buying newly released things will be to stay competitive. As far as I know, LoL have solved this problem haven't they? Or do competitive LoL players have to constantly pay money to stay competitive? I believe Lol competitions use unlocked servers run by Riot and/or other means of avoiding the F2Pwn nature of the game. From a community run standpoint Lol is barely competitive at best (in terms of $ and tournaments, the streaming community is sizable) as most events Riot has a hand in. Well, everything besides skins is unlockable in LoL without paying any money. That helps to keep people competitive even if they don't pay, but it can be a large grind. On top of that, they also provide a tournament server for sufficiently big tournaments that has everything unliked (as Logo mentioned). Its a pretty casual-heavy game though, although its tough to say how much of this is due to the difficulty of having a competitive 5v5 ladder for solo players, and how much of this is due to its F2P-ness. The thing I really dislike about Riot's approach, though, is that the microtransactions lead them to try and release as many new champions as possible. This means the game never really has a chance to 'settle' at any particular point, and thus everything is always changing. This would be something I wouldn't really want to happen to a Tribes game, as it would kill the development of skill in it. I'm curious to see if they've found a way to use microtransactions without constantly releasing things that change the balance of the game.
Going off-topic a little, that is one of the big downsides of competitive video-games that are being actively supported. Imagine the chaos when Heart of the Swarm hits? Are we going to have the SC community, and eSports players both, then split between BW, SC2-Vanilla and SC2-HotS? Or will the transition from SC2 to HotS be smooth? I'd doubt it. It may be difficult to pry eSports players away from SC2 to really put HotS to the test in Beta. Then, what about the 2nd expansion (whatever it was called again)?
It's something we'll have to continue to live with.
Back on-topic, I absolutely fucking loved Tribes. I bought, I think it was called Starsiege? Earthsiege? A fairly average mech game. Anyway, Tribes came bundled with that game and I didn't even install it until months later and it turned out to be one of the greatest multiplayer games I'd ever played. Hopefully they can rekindle that enjoyment with this one.
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On June 28 2011 09:30 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 09:08 tec27 wrote:On June 28 2011 07:05 Logo wrote:On June 28 2011 07:00 okuraku wrote:On June 28 2011 05:06 ProjectVirtue wrote:On June 28 2011 05:00 Tachion wrote:
The video actually looks pretty great I think. You can tell it's pretty fast paced and it obviously looks phenomenal. The physics could play a big part though so I'll have to wait and see on that.
The F2P part seems like it would kill the competitive aspect of the game ;/ You can't play on an even field when other people are getting 20% more energy from their packs and so on. A 'base' mod would have to be made(oh wait there is no client side modding) with only the minimum weapons/loadouts available, but then that could severely limit the options in competitive play.
I don't see how this is gonna work without people getting furious over being beat because someone spent $10 on an upgrade they don't have. I think the 20% more energy he might be referring to would be an alternate energy pack wherein instead of faster regen, you just have more energy at a burst interval when you need it. I'm thinking that they might have an option to "unlock" the game for a regular price like 50$ and you can still customize like normal back in T1 and T2 It works for LoL & BLC right? Those are both very competitive games that are free to play and only give you a part of the game for free on a rotating basis, unless you play a lot and unlock things for free. The fact that it's trying to follow a similar model actually really excites me more about the game. If they tried to follow a traditional model I fear they'd fail in the massive shooter market especially being PC only. Of course it all depends on the details how they actually do it, but being able to spend <$60 without a serious recurring cost (that is, new stuff they release isn't NECESSARY), sounds way more enticing to me than paying $60 and hoping that it keeps popular enough to justify my purchase. I think the biggest question that needs to be answered is how important buying newly released things will be to stay competitive. As far as I know, LoL have solved this problem haven't they? Or do competitive LoL players have to constantly pay money to stay competitive? I believe Lol competitions use unlocked servers run by Riot and/or other means of avoiding the F2Pwn nature of the game. From a community run standpoint Lol is barely competitive at best (in terms of $ and tournaments, the streaming community is sizable) as most events Riot has a hand in. Well, everything besides skins is unlockable in LoL without paying any money. That helps to keep people competitive even if they don't pay, but it can be a large grind. On top of that, they also provide a tournament server for sufficiently big tournaments that has everything unliked (as Logo mentioned). Its a pretty casual-heavy game though, although its tough to say how much of this is due to the difficulty of having a competitive 5v5 ladder for solo players, and how much of this is due to its F2P-ness. The thing I really dislike about Riot's approach, though, is that the microtransactions lead them to try and release as many new champions as possible. This means the game never really has a chance to 'settle' at any particular point, and thus everything is always changing. This would be something I wouldn't really want to happen to a Tribes game, as it would kill the development of skill in it. I'm curious to see if they've found a way to use microtransactions without constantly releasing things that change the balance of the game. Going off-topic a little, that is one of the big downsides of competitive video-games that are being actively supported. Imagine the chaos when Heart of the Swarm hits? Are we going to have the SC community, and eSports players both, then split between BW, SC2-Vanilla and SC2-HotS? Or will the transition from SC2 to HotS be smooth? I'd doubt it. It may be difficult to pry eSports players away from SC2 to really put HotS to the test in Beta. Then, what about the 2nd expansion (whatever it was called again)? It's something we'll have to continue to live with. Back on-topic, I absolutely fucking loved Tribes. I bought, I think it was called Starsiege? Earthsiege? A fairly average mech game. Anyway, Tribes came bundled with that game and I didn't even install it until months later and it turned out to be one of the greatest multiplayer games I'd ever played. Hopefully they can rekindle that enjoyment with this one.
The question about the move from WoL to HotS is silly. It will be just like the move from SC1 to BW and from Reign of Chaos to Frozen Throne. Everyone who is competitive will move up to the new expansion.
Speaking of silly things, the Tribes:Ascend business model of "purchasing loadouts" seems very silly. I love tribes, but as things look now this isn't tribes. FPS games require a different business model than mmo or moba games. How many permuations of (viable) loadouts are there really? Everyone looking to play at a high level will find the optimum "loadout package" for each roll (runner, defense, offense etc). and stick with it. Thus the only way for them to milk us dry of our money will be to "power creep" the loadouts. High rez has said that "Like League of Legends, Hi-Rez wants to be able to push new loadouts out regularly" That is to say they will have to keep making the loadouts better and more appealing or no one will want to buy them. And that makes for a piss poor fps.
Just me two cents.
PS, I really do love tribes and will at least try this game on release.
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Because it's not competition then.
If it's F2Pwn I'm out much to my disappointment. I refuse to play any game that tries to have an air of even competition and uses a F2Pwn business model. MMORPGs are one thing, they are created under the assumption of acquiring resources to gain combat advantage, but any match based game is a completely different story.
Persistence is a plague on competitive games and perhaps one of the biggest threats to esports imo.
I urge you to reconsider this opinion. While it is absolutely correct that any limitations to a player's arsenal detract from competition, it's important to understand the benefits overall, and check whether your fears are grounded
I come off recent experience introducing myself to LoL and being a designer-in-training myself looking at the model. I've found it surprisingly enjoyable and effective in several regards.
1) I think it's important that, as you say, there's capability for even fields. Competitive matches should have a model of either open access to all tools (via purchase or subscription) or no access to purchased tools (only the F2P basics allowed).
2) However, it is possible to learn in an uneven environment. Citing LoL as an example, I can learn to play the game without access to all its features and, I think, it actually makes it easier for me as a rookie to lane games. As I level up I learn the various tools I have available at a good nick, and when I reach the level where I have all features, I no longer end up playing with idiots because *everyone* has undergone the same process. In a team game this is essential. There are still levels of skill, but the discrepancy is comparatively small. It's surprising just how evenly matched players of equal level are. The adoption of several formats really helps, I think. They have casual matched games which have a different format to ladder games. So long as it is *possible* for players to ensure an even field, I think criticising unevenness in any other format is not constructive.
3) Customization and variation can be done consistently without destroying a competitive game. LoL has this in the form of item and rune builds, plus consistent additions of new champions every few weeks. SC2 has this in the form of balance patches, expansions and maps. Both of these things are what allows for a metagame, which is one of the most powerful aspects of Esports in keeping spectator interest and demonstrating intelligence and skill at the highest level. If a game is stagnant, it will devolve into optimum strategies extremely quickly, as we find with so many shooters of the CoD variety, or non-blizz RTS titles. There is of course a balance to be maintained, but it *can* be maintained.
Thus persistence is a new factor, and a complex one, but calling it a plague? no, I don't think so. It's a new paradigm. Some of us have the drive to learn to play a competitive game by being thrown in the deep end, but that's like learning martial arts by going in and sparring blackbelts from day 1 on even footing. There's a reason competitive games have learner formats, and one of the greatest advances in videogames design has been to get people to view going up a format as a worthwhile and fun task and expenditure of time. Almost everybody learns the rules of chess, but very few people have the drive to improve to be competent. With these F2P, a lot more people are getting at least a few levels of competence in before frustration, and that means they can appreciate those with skill far more. I think it's a price worth paying, I'm really looking forward to this game.
Admittedly with a little dread as well, because Riot has done such a kickass job IMHO of making a solid system and these guys don't have the best track record for stellar design. I hope they do their homework...
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After reading this http://forum.hirezstudios.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=234&t=37698 I can't help but feel that they're straying too far from what made Tribes, Tribes. Only 2 main weapons, spawning in your loadout, only 3 loadouts usable per game. They're really dumbing it down to try to appeal to the casuals =/ Not that I can blame them since that's where the money is, but as a very long time devoted Tribes player who enjoyed the steep learning curve, it's rather upsetting.
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I played tribes original and 2 to death I even bought the tribes 2 sound track. The soundtrack was so involved and fitting when i would sleep i would dream about it............i will play this in a heartbeat. Hopefully with my TL friends <3
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On July 02 2011 13:17 Tachion wrote:After reading this http://forum.hirezstudios.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=234&t=37698 I can't help but feel that they're straying too far from what made Tribes, Tribes. Only 2 main weapons, spawning in your loadout, only 3 loadouts usable per game. They're really dumbing it down to try to appeal to the casuals =/ Not that I can blame them since that's where the money is, but as a very long time devoted Tribes player who enjoyed the steep learning curve, it's rather upsetting.
FFS it's still going to be Tribes and not Halo, vengeance had 3 weapons per load out and no melee weapon and it was fine. Weapon load out doesn't make tribes, the jetpacks do, and those last time I checked where still there. There's nothing to freak out about, you'll just use the spinfuser and the chaingun combo like you would even if there were other weapons in your inventory while all your friends who have been playing counterstrike nonstop for the last 10 years will still suck at it.
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On July 02 2011 14:46 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 13:17 Tachion wrote:After reading this http://forum.hirezstudios.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=234&t=37698 I can't help but feel that they're straying too far from what made Tribes, Tribes. Only 2 main weapons, spawning in your loadout, only 3 loadouts usable per game. They're really dumbing it down to try to appeal to the casuals =/ Not that I can blame them since that's where the money is, but as a very long time devoted Tribes player who enjoyed the steep learning curve, it's rather upsetting. FFS it's still going to be Tribes and not Halo, vengeance had 3 weapons per load out and no melee weapon and it was fine. Weapon load out doesn't make tribes, the jetpacks do, and those last time I checked where still there. There's nothing to freak out about, you'll just use the spinfuser and the chaingun combo like you would even if there were other weapons in your inventory while all your friends who have been playing counterstrike nonstop for the last 10 years will still suck at it.
Vengeance did have a melee weapon, and you got 3/4/5 weapon slots for light/medium/heavy. This sticks you at 2 weapons in ALL ARMOR CLASSES. You also can't carry a chaingun and spinfusor according to http://i.imgur.com/wWVKY.png. Jetpacks don't make tribes, Global Agenda had jet packs and it was nothing like tribes. I'm sorry but you don't seem to know what you're talking about at all.
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Vengeance did have a melee weapon, and you got 3/4/5 weapon slots for light/medium/heavy. This sticks you at 2 weapons in ALL ARMOR CLASSES. You also can't carry a chaingun and spinfusor according to http://i.imgur.com/wWVKY.png. Jetpacks don't make tribes, Global Agenda had jet packs and it was nothing like tribes. I'm sorry but you don't seem to know what you're talking about at all.
It's annoying yes, but it probably won't stay that way. I seriously cannot imagine them leaving heavy with a main weapon and a pistol only. I can see light being relegated to a main and a light weapon and I can probably deal with that. I think you're wrong about the jetpack though. It wasn't jetpacks that made tribes, no, it was jetpacks interacting with an environment. Skiing, speed and the skillshots, offensive tactics and defensive tactics that generated was the key feature of the game (supported of course by a variety of novel stuff like the vehicles, base mechanics and so forth). A game might have jetpacks and be nothing like tribes, yet jetpacks might still be the tribes' defining feature.
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I was super excited about this, because I figured it would mostly be a reskin of Tribes 2. Now that it looks like it's going to be completely different, I'm not so excited about it.
Tribes 2 was a fantastic game, and much harder than any other FPS I'd ever played, because of the added dimension. I'm getting some crazy nostalgia about some Tribes arena games right now...
The CTF play was also incredible, and in my opinion some of the most fun that you can have on Tribes 2 is playing clan games.
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United States210 Posts
I was already excited about attending Quakecon but now I'm even more excited to give T:A a try. I know it's going to be different but I'm really curious to see what they can do with it, and hope it's successful/captures the fun of Tribes. I have been on a Tribes: Next kick since reading about T:A.
Anyway, yeah, the news is Ascend will be playable at Quakecon and they'll have a registration there for limited closed beta
http://www.hirezstudios.com/hirezwp/?p=304
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Not sure how you couldn't. Just need an extra button for jump-jetting on top of a regular FPS.
Even if it is suspended, I doubt we'll see much complexity in the PC version's controls (e.g. Tribes 1 interface where you've got a thousand and one different buttons to play with). They'll dumb it down to make sure the console option is always open.
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On July 14 2011 14:29 okuraku wrote:I was already excited about attending Quakecon but now I'm even more excited to give T:A a try. I know it's going to be different but I'm really curious to see what they can do with it, and hope it's successful/captures the fun of Tribes. I have been on a Tribes: Next kick since reading about T:A. Anyway, yeah, the news is Ascend will be playable at Quakecon and they'll have a registration there for limited closed beta http://www.hirezstudios.com/hirezwp/?p=304
make sure to record some details for us :D
also, i dont suppose you'll be able to drop off more than 1 registration for the beta right?
as for the article that got released today, it's not like tribes 1 really had that many buttons to play around with. basic stuff were still the same. the focus they put on the PC version is a little reassuring to me that they're not trying to make some 50/50 pc/xbox hybrid thing that doesn't really work
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Shoutout to T1 PUG stonehenge clusterfcks :O
The physics in the gameplay video looks like it could have a chance to not suck as bad as vanilla T2/vengeance, I just hope there's enough competitive T1/T2classic players in their ears/beta.
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EPT
