On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
That sucks because there should be areas that are above your level, heck play Gothic2:Notr, and tell me how the feeling of danger, and planning forced by good hand placement of enemies can be archived with level scaling.
Level scaling also makes gaining levels pointless.
The level scaling system I think will give the player the illusion of progression, while still giving them the freedom to choose where they want to explore next in the game world. One thing I hate about games with higher level areas, and lower level areas, is it feels like I'm being guided down a strait path with little choice of where I can go next. As long as there is the illusion of progress, then I should be fine.
Now the only thing I'm hoping isn't scaled are the dragons. I want them to be a real challenge, or something I run from if I'm not high level enough.
Having highlevel and lowlevel areas doesn't force you down a certain path. It just makes some places harder than others. You will have to be smart and take risks if you want to reap the reward from the harder areas early on.
I don't want the game to trick me. I want to trick the game.
To do some cool things in Morrowind early I had to steal like a raven, sell it all, buy a few choice items, then pull off something awesome to reap massive rewards = Awesome! Being able to actually be rewarded for being creative and abusive is what a sandbox should be about, not wandering about in some safe little playground.
I love audacious moves like you describe, killing things you shouldn't kill etc. But I don't know what you are talking about saying you can't do it in Oblivion, there are several people you can do that with. Granted none are as impressive as the god who sits there floating in that temple, Vec or something, but there are still some pretty high profile and difficult enemies you can kill in cheeky ways. In fact on a hard difficulty level almost all the bosses require some incredibly clever usage to beat. For example the head of the guild that fights the mages guild is an absolute monster badass. That being said I am all for a game which brings more of this into play. More epic enemies that you can attempt to fight if you are brave enough and get rewarded nicely for your efforts .
well or you can enchant all your stuff with chameleon and break the game completely that way. Man I really hope they fixed that spell in Skyrim
On June 09 2011 06:13 N3rV[Green] wrote: I'm mostly just looking forward to the hour content. I've been looking for a game I can easily spend over 100 hours in since I played FFVII in my most recently play through many years ago.
If the 300+ mark is anywhere near accurate I'm going to enjoy myself greatly.
I've found the most fun in these games simply wandering around stealing from people and looting caves/dungeons and killing lots of stuff. With over 150 fully rendered dungeons (as in not randomly generated, giving possibilities to nifty things like mini story lines hidden throughout the caves and such) there is going to be SO much to just explore.
Whenever someone says they have #X of hours of gameplay I like to remember that they include filler like walking from place to place, good content, bad content, epic quests and unentertaining things alike. I'd rather hear about the quality of the game then the length.
On the same note, I HOPE there really are 150 fully rendered dungeons and not just 40 caves, 20 ruins et cetera that all look just the damn same like in Oblivion.
Don't get me wrong. Morrowind was one of my all time favorites, I liked Oblivion (Modded) and Fallout 3/NV (Modded for difficulty)
I just want to see it reach new heights this time.
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
That sucks because there should be areas that are above your level, heck play Gothic2:Notr, and tell me how the feeling of danger, and planning forced by good hand placement of enemies can be archived with level scaling.
Level scaling also makes gaining levels pointless.
The level scaling system I think will give the player the illusion of progression, while still giving them the freedom to choose where they want to explore next in the game world. One thing I hate about games with higher level areas, and lower level areas, is it feels like I'm being guided down a strait path with little choice of where I can go next. As long as there is the illusion of progress, then I should be fine.
Now the only thing I'm hoping isn't scaled are the dragons. I want them to be a real challenge, or something I run from if I'm not high level enough.
Having highlevel and lowlevel areas doesn't force you down a certain path. It just makes some places harder than others. You will have to be smart and take risks if you want to reap the reward from the harder areas early on.
I don't want the game to trick me. I want to trick the game.
To do some cool things in Morrowind early I had to steal like a raven, sell it all, buy a few choice items, then pull off something awesome to reap massive rewards = Awesome! Being able to actually be rewarded for being creative and abusive is what a sandbox should be about, not wandering about in some safe little playground.
I love audacious moves like you describe, killing things you shouldn't kill etc. But I don't know what you are talking about saying you can't do it in Oblivion, there are several people you can do that with. Granted none are as impressive as the god who sits there floating in that temple, Vec or something, but there are still some pretty high profile and difficult enemies you can kill in cheeky ways. In fact on a hard difficulty level almost all the bosses require some incredibly clever usage to beat. For example the head of the guild that fights the mages guild is an absolute monster badass. That being said I am all for a game which brings more of this into play. More epic enemies that you can attempt to fight if you are brave enough and get rewarded nicely for your efforts .
well or you can enchant all your stuff with chameleon and break the game completely that way. Man I really hope they fixed that spell in Skyrim
that was fun , yes indeed. Probably should be scaled down. The whole spell crafting and enchanting thing is definitely game breaking, but a nice idea.
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
This seems kind of awkward. How often have you not unintentionally wandered to some place intended to be explored later in the game? This could backfire and make places you accidentally enter easier than you would've wanted them to be. Though I don't know how they've split up areas in the world.
I've never had experience with a similar system though, maybe it works fine.
For myself, the thing I am looking out for is how transportation .. or lack of, is handled. It may sound prudish, but I want to be able to "fast travel" to places via actually purchasing the transport from Silt Striders. It's the same effect as fast-travel, but.. I don't know.. immersion I guess, its things like that which made me love Morrowind.
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
This seems kind of awkward. How often have you not unintentionally wandered to some place intended to be explored later in the game? This could backfire and make places you accidentally enter easier than you would've wanted them to be. Though I don't know how they've split up areas in the world.
I've never had experience with a similar system though, maybe it works fine.
In Morrowind....I wondered into areas not meant for my low level char quite often....and it made the game so fun. Nothing like running into a random cave while off exploring, and realizing 2 seconds in that you are in deep crap, and having to sneak your way back out. Then putting a mental checklist there, and coming back 10 levels later and kicking their butt. Or sneaking into a high level dungeon and plundering their high level chests for the lulz. i don't know if that was in vanilla Morrowind or not, tbh, but it made the game SOOOOO much more fun. You can't just walk into any cave you find and know 100% that no enemies there are going to be any challenge whatsoever....just like every other enemy in the game if you leveled up semi-competently.
On June 09 2011 20:44 ChinaWhite wrote: ^^ This too. Morrowind did it perfectly though with a mixture of boats, striders, mark / recall and intervention spells.
Oh, and SO MUCH THIS. Fast travel ruined oblivion. Give you plenty of "fast travel options', but not of the "instant and wherever you are to wherever you want to go instantly" variety. Sure, you could argue it artificially lengthens the game, but the amount of fun stuff I got into traveling from place to place was worth it, and also made the game so much more immersive.
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
That sucks because there should be areas that are above your level, heck play Gothic2:Notr, and tell me how the feeling of danger, and planning forced by good hand placement of enemies can be archived with level scaling.
Level scaling also makes gaining levels pointless.
The level scaling system I think will give the player the illusion of progression, while still giving them the freedom to choose where they want to explore next in the game world. One thing I hate about games with higher level areas, and lower level areas, is it feels like I'm being guided down a strait path with little choice of where I can go next. As long as there is the illusion of progress, then I should be fine.
Now the only thing I'm hoping isn't scaled are the dragons. I want them to be a real challenge, or something I run from if I'm not high level enough.
Having highlevel and lowlevel areas doesn't force you down a certain path. It just makes some places harder than others. You will have to be smart and take risks if you want to reap the reward from the harder areas early on.
I don't want the game to trick me. I want to trick the game.
To do some cool things in Morrowind early I had to steal like a raven, sell it all, buy a few choice items, then pull off something awesome to reap massive rewards = Awesome! Being able to actually be rewarded for being creative and abusive is what a sandbox should be about, not wandering about in some safe little playground.
I love audacious moves like you describe, killing things you shouldn't kill etc. But I don't know what you are talking about saying you can't do it in Oblivion, there are several people you can do that with. Granted none are as impressive as the god who sits there floating in that temple, Vec or something, but there are still some pretty high profile and difficult enemies you can kill in cheeky ways. In fact on a hard difficulty level almost all the bosses require some incredibly clever usage to beat. For example the head of the guild that fights the mages guild is an absolute monster badass. That being said I am all for a game which brings more of this into play. More epic enemies that you can attempt to fight if you are brave enough and get rewarded nicely for your efforts .
I think the major point here is that there is no risk/reward. If you manage to beat the assasins guild quest line on level 1, all the loot and bonuses that you get from that will be worthless a few levels later. Since the loot you can find levelscales with you, there is no reason to try to get the best and coolest weapons early on. You either can't find them or the items you do find (from quests) will be worse than they would have been if you would have found them later.
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
That sucks because there should be areas that are above your level, heck play Gothic2:Notr, and tell me how the feeling of danger, and planning forced by good hand placement of enemies can be archived with level scaling.
Level scaling also makes gaining levels pointless.
The level scaling system I think will give the player the illusion of progression, while still giving them the freedom to choose where they want to explore next in the game world. One thing I hate about games with higher level areas, and lower level areas, is it feels like I'm being guided down a strait path with little choice of where I can go next. As long as there is the illusion of progress, then I should be fine.
Now the only thing I'm hoping isn't scaled are the dragons. I want them to be a real challenge, or something I run from if I'm not high level enough.
Having highlevel and lowlevel areas doesn't force you down a certain path. It just makes some places harder than others. You will have to be smart and take risks if you want to reap the reward from the harder areas early on.
I don't want the game to trick me. I want to trick the game.
To do some cool things in Morrowind early I had to steal like a raven, sell it all, buy a few choice items, then pull off something awesome to reap massive rewards = Awesome! Being able to actually be rewarded for being creative and abusive is what a sandbox should be about, not wandering about in some safe little playground.
I love audacious moves like you describe, killing things you shouldn't kill etc. But I don't know what you are talking about saying you can't do it in Oblivion, there are several people you can do that with. Granted none are as impressive as the god who sits there floating in that temple, Vec or something, but there are still some pretty high profile and difficult enemies you can kill in cheeky ways. In fact on a hard difficulty level almost all the bosses require some incredibly clever usage to beat. For example the head of the guild that fights the mages guild is an absolute monster badass. That being said I am all for a game which brings more of this into play. More epic enemies that you can attempt to fight if you are brave enough and get rewarded nicely for your efforts .
I think the major point here is that there is no risk/reward. If you manage to beat the assasins guild quest line on level 1, all the loot and bonuses that you get from that will be worthless a few levels later. Since the loot you can find levelscales with you, there is no reason to try to get the best and coolest weapons early on. You either can't find them or the items you do find (from quests) will be worse than they would have been if you would have found them later.
Umbra scaled in power as you leveled. Not sure about other weapons though.
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
That sucks because there should be areas that are above your level, heck play Gothic2:Notr, and tell me how the feeling of danger, and planning forced by good hand placement of enemies can be archived with level scaling.
Level scaling also makes gaining levels pointless.
The level scaling system I think will give the player the illusion of progression, while still giving them the freedom to choose where they want to explore next in the game world. One thing I hate about games with higher level areas, and lower level areas, is it feels like I'm being guided down a strait path with little choice of where I can go next. As long as there is the illusion of progress, then I should be fine.
Now the only thing I'm hoping isn't scaled are the dragons. I want them to be a real challenge, or something I run from if I'm not high level enough.
Having highlevel and lowlevel areas doesn't force you down a certain path. It just makes some places harder than others. You will have to be smart and take risks if you want to reap the reward from the harder areas early on.
I don't want the game to trick me. I want to trick the game.
To do some cool things in Morrowind early I had to steal like a raven, sell it all, buy a few choice items, then pull off something awesome to reap massive rewards = Awesome! Being able to actually be rewarded for being creative and abusive is what a sandbox should be about, not wandering about in some safe little playground.
I love audacious moves like you describe, killing things you shouldn't kill etc. But I don't know what you are talking about saying you can't do it in Oblivion, there are several people you can do that with. Granted none are as impressive as the god who sits there floating in that temple, Vec or something, but there are still some pretty high profile and difficult enemies you can kill in cheeky ways. In fact on a hard difficulty level almost all the bosses require some incredibly clever usage to beat. For example the head of the guild that fights the mages guild is an absolute monster badass. That being said I am all for a game which brings more of this into play. More epic enemies that you can attempt to fight if you are brave enough and get rewarded nicely for your efforts .
I think the major point here is that there is no risk/reward. If you manage to beat the assasins guild quest line on level 1, all the loot and bonuses that you get from that will be worthless a few levels later. Since the loot you can find levelscales with you, there is no reason to try to get the best and coolest weapons early on. You either can't find them or the items you do find (from quests) will be worse than they would have been if you would have found them later.
Meh, like I already said, I think all accusations about level scaling are completely worthless and null and void. If you own a computer and internet connection, you should not have this problem.
If you want to be a badass in Oblivion you can always fight the guards, you can fight the heads of the fighters/ mages guild, they yield pretty epic equipment, you can (in the easily modded version) go and take on a den of vampires or actually try to kill the blind monks. Good luck because they will slaughter you on high difficulty. Even the arena is very difficult on highest difficulty and low level. You can also rush to an oblivion gate and get mashed up. You can fight the count of Skingrad (I think) if you want another hideously difficult challenge. I'll admit that I would like to see more of this risk/reward stuff, I personally love to take on enemies way stronger than me all the time, and use smarts to win. To be honest though even Morrowind is still child's play compared to the enemies you can fight in BG2, and the loot you can get from doing it. I guess I couldn't distinguish too much difference between TES 3 and 4 in that respect because I have been 'ruined' by the experience of what you can do in BG2.
To be honest all the mystique and quality of Morrowind is still let down by the virtually unplayable combat imo. I'll agree it had a great atmosphere and great immersion and even good voice acting and stuff but that just flat out sucked. Sucked when I first played it and hasn't stopped sucking since.
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
This seems kind of awkward. How often have you not unintentionally wandered to some place intended to be explored later in the game? This could backfire and make places you accidentally enter easier than you would've wanted them to be. Though I don't know how they've split up areas in the world.
I've never had experience with a similar system though, maybe it works fine.
In Morrowind....I wondered into areas not meant for my low level char quite often....and it made the game so fun. Nothing like running into a random cave while off exploring, and realizing 2 seconds in that you are in deep crap, and having to sneak your way back out. Then putting a mental checklist there, and coming back 10 levels later and kicking their butt. Or sneaking into a high level dungeon and plundering their high level chests for the lulz. i don't know if that was in vanilla Morrowind or not, tbh, but it made the game SOOOOO much more fun. You can't just walk into any cave you find and know 100% that no enemies there are going to be any challenge whatsoever....just like every other enemy in the game if you leveled up semi-competently.
With 1 ez mod you can change this like already stated. You can make it so there are some dungeons even at level 1 which are populated by absolute BAMFs. Like uber lichs and high level spellcaster mofos. With epic lewt. It seems like 50% of peoples' complaints about Oblivion relate to about 1-3 mods. Wish some of you had played the game with the mods. The rest of the complaints are about the fact that it's too generic fantasy setting with bland countryside. But meh, I prefer more realistic. Maybe it's because I was always creeped out by the idea of riding a giant flea -.-
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
This seems kind of awkward. How often have you not unintentionally wandered to some place intended to be explored later in the game? This could backfire and make places you accidentally enter easier than you would've wanted them to be. Though I don't know how they've split up areas in the world.
I've never had experience with a similar system though, maybe it works fine.
In Morrowind....I wondered into areas not meant for my low level char quite often....and it made the game so fun. Nothing like running into a random cave while off exploring, and realizing 2 seconds in that you are in deep crap, and having to sneak your way back out. Then putting a mental checklist there, and coming back 10 levels later and kicking their butt. Or sneaking into a high level dungeon and plundering their high level chests for the lulz. i don't know if that was in vanilla Morrowind or not, tbh, but it made the game SOOOOO much more fun. You can't just walk into any cave you find and know 100% that no enemies there are going to be any challenge whatsoever....just like every other enemy in the game if you leveled up semi-competently.
With 1 ez mod you can change this like already stated. You can make it so there are some dungeons even at level 1 which are populated by absolute BAMFs. Like uber lichs and high level spellcaster mofos. With epic lewt. It seems like 50% of peoples' complaints about Oblivion relate to about 1-3 mods. Wish some of you had played the game with the mods. The rest of the complaints are about the fact that it's too generic fantasy setting with bland countryside. But meh, I prefer more realistic. Maybe it's because I was always creeped out by the idea of riding a giant flea -.-
bland countyside? Man, multiple times I've been riding my horse around some nice woodland areas in the middle of nowhere, maybe just chasing some deer or smth and lo and behold, I stumble across a little piece of paradise..probably 99.9% of players would never find that place, but it's still there. You just have to look for it.
On June 09 2011 00:34 deathly rat wrote:Also, the scaling of monsters levels was to make sure the game continued to be challenging, not to make the game easier to play. They have since refined the system such that new areas are scaled but areas already discovered are set, this is so you can feel you power growing. All this has been innovative stuff from Bethesda. I really think you are missing out on the context here.
This seems kind of awkward. How often have you not unintentionally wandered to some place intended to be explored later in the game? This could backfire and make places you accidentally enter easier than you would've wanted them to be. Though I don't know how they've split up areas in the world.
I've never had experience with a similar system though, maybe it works fine.
In Morrowind....I wondered into areas not meant for my low level char quite often....and it made the game so fun. Nothing like running into a random cave while off exploring, and realizing 2 seconds in that you are in deep crap, and having to sneak your way back out. Then putting a mental checklist there, and coming back 10 levels later and kicking their butt. Or sneaking into a high level dungeon and plundering their high level chests for the lulz. i don't know if that was in vanilla Morrowind or not, tbh, but it made the game SOOOOO much more fun. You can't just walk into any cave you find and know 100% that no enemies there are going to be any challenge whatsoever....just like every other enemy in the game if you leveled up semi-competently.
With 1 ez mod you can change this like already stated. You can make it so there are some dungeons even at level 1 which are populated by absolute BAMFs. Like uber lichs and high level spellcaster mofos. With epic lewt. It seems like 50% of peoples' complaints about Oblivion relate to about 1-3 mods. Wish some of you had played the game with the mods. The rest of the complaints are about the fact that it's too generic fantasy setting with bland countryside. But meh, I prefer more realistic. Maybe it's because I was always creeped out by the idea of riding a giant flea -.-
bland countyside? Man, multiple times I've been riding my horse around some nice woodland areas in the middle of nowhere, maybe just chasing some deer or smth and lo and behold, I stumble across a little piece of paradise..probably 99.9% of players would never find that place, but it's still there. You just have to look for it.
I'm not sure how you gleaned from my staunch defence of Oblivion that I think the countryside is bland. I was describing the sentiment I get from the critics of that game. I personally think riding my horse in the countryside in Oblivion was one of my favourite memories of gaming since I first experienced it in 2006. I actually remember riding around for 2 hours just bathing in the pastoral atmosphere. Occasionally venturing into a mountain pass or two.
Come to think of it, I got the same experience a few years earlier when I spent an entire afternoon 'fishing for pearls' in clams off the north east coast of morrowind.
I never got into the previous Elder Scrolls games but this one looks pretty legit. My best friend played Oblivion and it looked ok but one thing that stood out was the whack alchemy system. Hopefully they have something more refined than the one in the previous game.
As for the dynamic or radiant story, that just seems awesome. I love how unique that can make your gameplay.
As far as this game goes, I am planning on telling everyone around me that the week that comes out they won't be hearing much from me.
I really, really, really hope they stick to their roots and keep the PC version at a high quality, because as of late it seems PC gamers have been getting shafted.
Things I really hope are included on the PC, because they should be:
-Advanced graphics options (settings for all of the graphics, not just a low, medium, high setting like in Crysis 2) -The ability to be modded out the wazoo (which I am sure will be included, it is an Elder Scrolls game on the PC ). -Controls that are exclusive to the PC, not console controls hastily ported over.
Though I fully trust Bethesda, they haven't seem to have let me down over the years, it just seems more and more games lately haven't had the things I have mentioned above, and I would hate to see my favorite gaming series fall victim to the console uprising.
EPT
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