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Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
October 19 2011 22:52 GMT
#1741
On October 20 2011 07:48 DEN1ED wrote:
I've yet to play vs liliana in MBI online. In the past 2 standard dailys there have been 5 MBI decks (2 4-0's, 3 3-1's) and none of them ran liliana main or sb.


Because Lilys are how much? The deck can be fine without Lilys, but it's so much better with Lilys.
Get it by your hands...
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
October 19 2011 23:08 GMT
#1742
Ya I wasn't saying there were bad, I wouldn't know. Just haven't' experienced playing vs it. Should be interesting to see.
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-20 00:12:53
October 20 2011 00:11 GMT
#1743
If you look at the list of states decks and check MBI, you will see lily in every deck that did well. The reason lily is so good in MBI is for 2 reasons.

1. You can edict away threats that you cannot normally remove with targetted removal.
2. The discard effect right after a sacrificed specter now puts your opponent in topdeck mode. If they draw something they do not want to play just yet, you force then to discard it. If its a creature and they play it, you simply edict it. The longer lily is out for the more edicts you will be able to get off with her. Not to mention they will die very fast with a lashwrithed plaguestinger swinging at them for god knows how much.

Does anyone here play MBI, because I might actually build it since I have almost all the cards needed already from my previous attempts at infect decks and I got a few questions.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
October 20 2011 00:32 GMT
#1744
I have played against enough to point out a few things and what you need to watch for coming from a Solar Flare player.
Get it by your hands...
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
October 20 2011 00:46 GMT
#1745
I guess my main question might be how do you not die to sword of feast and famine. Just be vigilant on removing all their creatures so you can edict away the sword carrier?
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
October 20 2011 01:17 GMT
#1746
Feast and Famine is non-factor. You have flyers, they don't. You have Contagion Clasp, they don't. Some decks use tumble magnet, others don't. It's not that big of an issue because by turn 4 or 5, they'll have to respect your threats, because any of your creatures can get a Lashwrithe then be staring down at lethal by infect.

You're presenting double-strike on all of your creatures if they get through, they really have to play around the Lashwrithe-equip dead play if they sitting at around 3 infect. Plus you have access to Despise and Distress, so you can plan accordingly. The deck is by no means a simple deck to play and actually requires thought to lock the opponent out. Just be wary of their outs and play from there.
Get it by your hands...
Cixah
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11285 Posts
October 20 2011 01:28 GMT
#1747
Judicator do you have a list? For MBI, I can't find one I like anywhere and people want it in our gauntlet.
Hug The Goat! Hug the Goat! Hug the Goat!
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
October 20 2011 01:33 GMT
#1748
If Phillip Greenway posts his somewhere I'll recommend it, he played very tight against me, albeit a little lucky (double distress game 2 against me), but it's a nice list and I liked it. He won KY states, so just keep an eye for that.
Get it by your hands...
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
October 20 2011 02:20 GMT
#1749
On October 20 2011 05:42 DCLXVI wrote:
Ive been toying around with the deck at the bottom of this article (grimgrin ooze keeper combo):
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10073
It is a lot of fun to play, but I am wondering what works best. I have cut green from the deck and use the blue souleater instead, so I have some room to play around. The options I see are:

Stay U/B and add lillianas, some counter magic. Lilliana gets combo pieces out of my hand if I can't stick a looter and she strips away their hand, buys me time.

Splash white for unburial rites and sideboard options so I have outs to losing my ooze.

Stay U/B and add in more of the combo pieces/looters, perhaps think twice/divination to guarantee I hit the combo. I could also add in phantasmal image but that seems loose.

So far I like the first option best but I would love some more ideas to try/opinions on which way to go with the deck. I don't think the deck can compete with T1 decks, but it's something I want to take to an FNM,


I love that deck, Pentavus also works as well. Green actually looks pretty necessary with skinshifter becoming an early threat for you. It's the best usage of mulch I have seen. Straight U/B with that kind of win condition seems extremely viable. If you lose green and add white, I think you are right that it would be best to run it as a Solar Flare variant. I'd stay away from the third option until you find a solid core to support your combo. I might have to make this, seeing as I pulled both a grimgrin and a bloodline, and I already have a skithiryx. All of the essential pieces are gorgeous for my budget.

Let's start out with the necessary parts to the combo so we can add the variants.

+ Show Spoiler +
3 Bloodline Keeper
3 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
4 Necrotic Ooze


10 for the actual combo, and the Grim+Keeper act as solid drops if you're ooze-less. Now for the best candidates to assist it.

+ Show Spoiler +
4 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Liliana of the veil
3 Civilized Scholar
1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
2 Nephalia drownyard


I think I prefer just the 3 civilized scholars and not that last merfolk, because you actually want to turn him into a threatening dude so your opponent will chump him, and I'd rather draw more playable stuff then merfolk, I don't see how that 1 makes the slightest difference. Perhaps a manacurve tweak? Scholar can go to the grave and with necrotic ooze on the field the next turn, you can put as many dudes you want into the grave from your hand, while drawing to replace them, gaining card advantage instead of losing it all the while. That is pretty insane, considering it does exactly what you want to do anyway. 4 Forbidden Alchemy and 3 Liliana seem like huge helps as well as insanely good alternatives, doubt I need to say why. 1 Skithiryx seems almost too few, but then again, he's not as castable as the other two buddies, unless you throw in inkmoths for additional infect or something. Won't fiddle with that so that's a one of. 2 Nephalia seems like a solid rounder, since 1 is negligible, and you don't want to draw more then one with all the double black that infects this deck (hohoho). 13 + 10 = 23 YAY MATH

Then some basic support, not quite as much as UBcontrol
+ Show Spoiler +
4 Mana Leak
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 doom blade
3 Go for the Throat
3 Snapcaster mage
3 Gitaxian probe
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 despise


I think those are standard numbers. I personally prefer gitaxian probe over think twice, since we are very heavily invested in black. But I could be really wrong, I'm awful at control. Critique on this section especially would be lovely. But I'm assuming we want around 17 offensive control stuff. Has either one of GftT or doom blade become more encompassing against popular stuff? How about thoughts on despise and probe? 38 cards now. 22 lands + 2 Nephalia, 24 seems solid here. More swamps then islands of course. 2 Phyrexian Metamorph in this section, since I think it's more of a back-up supporter, rather then part of the combo.

Would love optional things. Liliana seems more like a 'if you got her play her' card, and is not necessary if you utilize other forms of discard. Looter would definitely come in then, maybe even smallpox? If brain weevil was 3 mana and hit both players, that would be hilarious. Hey, it's an active ability! YOU CAN NEVER GO WRONG! I'm not sure about archivist, he might fit, but it would be a tad brutal. I don't think phantasmal Image is any good here, since all of your creatures target themselves. Just to make sure, cryptoplasm's thing is not an active ability right?

There are a lot of choices, but this is what I've come down to for UBooze. I think focusing on the essentials, and protecting them is the best bet here, similar to solar flare.

+ Show Spoiler +
Creatures [19]
3 Bloodline Keeper
3 Civilized Scholar
3 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
3 Liliana of the veil
1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4 Necrotic Ooze
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Jace, memory adept

Spells [17]
4 Mana Leak
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 doom blade
3 Go for the Throat
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Gitaxian probe
2 Despise

Lands [24]
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
5 Island
2 Nephalia Drownyard
9 Swamp
Deck Total [60]

SB [15]
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Doom Blade
3 Spellskite
4 Flashfreeze
3 nihil spellbomb
1 go for the throat


I dub thee Tactics Oozer! hohoho
Together but separate, like oatmeal
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
October 20 2011 02:53 GMT
#1750
On October 20 2011 10:33 Judicator wrote:
If Phillip Greenway posts his somewhere I'll recommend it, he played very tight against me, albeit a little lucky (double distress game 2 against me), but it's a nice list and I liked it. He won KY states, so just keep an eye for that.


I didn't see that one, but here is the maryland one that took first place.

MBI w/ lily
Together but separate, like oatmeal
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
October 20 2011 05:57 GMT
#1751
On October 20 2011 11:53 bumatlarge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2011 10:33 Judicator wrote:
If Phillip Greenway posts his somewhere I'll recommend it, he played very tight against me, albeit a little lucky (double distress game 2 against me), but it's a nice list and I liked it. He won KY states, so just keep an eye for that.


I didn't see that one, but here is the maryland one that took first place.

MBI w/ lily


This is pretty much the standard MBI decklist, maybe with small changes like tumble magnet.
DCLXVI
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States729 Posts
October 20 2011 19:42 GMT
#1752
@bumatlarge
The reason I was able to drop green from the deck was because I added trespassing souleater. I don't think there is enough removal in the deck to clear a path for the ooze, and there is not enough flash back targets for the mage so I would go
-3x snapcaster mage
+2x trespassing souleater
+1x despise

I would also add in one more drownyard as the mana is easy to hit with no double blue targets (well, i didn't have a jace in). Also it is very good to sit back on counter mana and a drownyard in play if you don't have your combo built up yet. Untapping with ooze and drownyarding into the final piece of the combo has won me several games as my only out.
-1x swamp
+1x Nephilia Drownyard

I am not sure if phantasmal copying ooze would suicide or not if it tried to combo. Does grimgrins ability copy itself? And skithiryx/trespassing souleater? If not then I would
-2x phyrexian metamorph
+2x phantasmal image
else I would go
+2x negate/unburial rites/spellskite
but I think 7 mana is realistically out of reach in this deck and all of these options would be better than metamorph. untaping with ooze should win the game, you won't need to copy him. Copying an opponents sword/artifact is also pretty useless in this deck.

I have been considering running visions of beyond game one(before the graveyard hate comes in), since this deck can reliably self mill 20+ cards. I don't think the deck can spare mana for think twice, but visions might make the cut. I also toy around with some number of negates as protecting ooze is the most important part of the deck. While bloodline keeper might win a game if left alone for 3 turns or so, grimgrin/souleater/scholar/lilliana certainly won't in this deck. Not to say I haven't won a few games without the combo, but doing so is very hard. This makes the potential upside for scholar pretty unimportant. There are few times I want to attack into their creatures as opposed to looter being able to trade with mages/hero tokens. I would rather play lilliana/alchemy at 3 than scholar, whereas I really only have leak at 2, so I think some number of scholars should be looters.
-1x Civilized scholar
+1x Merfolk looter

I am not sure about the jace, it seems like if you can untap with 5 mana and land him he could steal a game if you have ooze out, but the likely hood of that happening is low. I would rather have a way to draw into ooze or a way to protect it than another way to fill the graveyard. This deck does not lack ways to fill the graveyard, many more times I have to hold ooze in hand with my combo in the yard because I have no protection for him.
-1x Jace memory adept
+1x negate

Finally I think adding another skithiryx would help as hasting out ooze is the most reliable way to win, and you really don't care about their creatures as you should combo out turn 5ish before they kill you
-1x Go for the Throat
+1x Skithiryx the Blight Dragon

I'm not sure if spellskite should be main deck or not but it really soaks up removal well. I really don't know though, I'll play around with it some more. I still think adding white would help a ton, if just +4x isolated chapel +2x glacial fortress +2x unburial...

I think the sideboard should include 3/4 mental missteps as RDW and aggro white is a tough matchup
I can already see the ending
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
October 21 2011 03:02 GMT
#1753
I'll respond mafia style cause I know how you roll.

+ Show Spoiler +
On October 21 2011 04:42 DCLXVI wrote:
@bumatlarge
The reason I was able to drop green from the deck was because I added trespassing souleater. I don't think there is enough removal in the deck to clear a path for the ooze, and there is not enough flash back targets for the mage so I would go
-3x snapcaster mage
+2x trespassing souleater
+1x despise

This is extremely reasonable, and after a little test trun against my buddies wolf-run, snapcaster is hardly impactful on the game. Despise, on the other hand was amazing at picking off important drops at every level of the game. I think with such a creature heavy environment it's amazing. I will try soulstealer, many times in the late game verse wolf run we were at a stalemate where he had a feast and famine on something, but I had spellskite or an ooze with skites ability to stop wolfrun. Getting inis just as important as getting big.

I would also add in one more drownyard as the mana is easy to hit with no double blue targets (well, i didn't have a jace in). Also it is very good to sit back on counter mana and a drownyard in play if you don't have your combo built up yet. Untapping with ooze and drownyarding into the final piece of the combo has won me several games as my only out.
-1x swamp
+1x Nephilia Drownyard

Wasn't crazy about drownyard, but if you have less control and more ooze abuse, it's a logical step to take.

I am not sure if phantasmal copying ooze would suicide or not if it tried to combo. Does grimgrins ability copy itself? And skithiryx/trespassing souleater? If not then I would
-2x phyrexian metamorph
+2x phantasmal image
else I would go
+2x negate/unburial rites/spellskite
but I think 7 mana is realistically out of reach in this deck and all of these options would be better than metamorph. untaping with ooze should win the game, you won't need to copy him. Copying an opponents sword/artifact is also pretty useless in this deck.

Image kills itself using any of the abilities except the vampire, and your creatures are not worth copying just for P/T. Playing with missing puzzle pieces still leads to strong board control, because each of your creatures are drops that need to be answered. I could only fathom P-Image being a good sideboard card. Metamorph is 1 mana more that can sync with your deck. I think that makes it worth it to ditch the image. Spellskite is actually the much better choice then any of those suggestions, I don't think you can have too many of those floating around. We often have blue mana open. With soulstealer giving ooze evasion, something it desperately needs, then yes, metamorph is bad.

I have been considering running visions of beyond game one(before the graveyard hate comes in), since this deck can reliably self mill 20+ cards. I don't think the deck can spare mana for think twice, but visions might make the cut. I also toy around with some number of negates as protecting ooze is the most important part of the deck. While bloodline keeper might win a game if left alone for 3 turns or so, grimgrin/souleater/scholar/lilliana certainly won't in this deck. Not to say I haven't won a few games without the combo, but doing so is very hard. This makes the potential upside for scholar pretty unimportant. There are few times I want to attack into their creatures as opposed to looter being able to trade with mages/hero tokens. I would rather play lilliana/alchemy at 3 than scholar, whereas I really only have leak at 2, so I think some number of scholars should be looters.
-1x Civilized scholar
+1x Merfolk looter

Think Twice doesn't seem to have a place here, visions might though. But what are you hoping to draw if you have 20+ cards in your graveyard? I'm assuming the 2 oozes you've drawn have been dealt with? Though, with 4 despise, I would heavily consider visions over probe.

Scholar brings a threat to the table that forces a trade and puts him in your yard, while drawing and filling the grave. I feel like it can take both Lily's and alchemy's role in what your deck needs to do, and potentially faster. Though tripping over fucking emissaries sucks balls. Against wolf-run, I'd throw all my scholars in the garbage. Fucking emissaries. I despise that shit over any titan/PW ANY DAY in that match up before they can drop it turn 2. Merfolk is a solid preference.


I am not sure about the jace, it seems like if you can untap with 5 mana and land him he could steal a game if you have ooze out, but the likely hood of that happening is low. I would rather have a way to draw into ooze or a way to protect it than another way to fill the graveyard. This deck does not lack ways to fill the graveyard, many more times I have to hold ooze in hand with my combo in the yard because I have no protection for him.
-1x Jace memory adept
+1x negate

t4 Ooze > t5 Jace is a likely situation. 5 mana is alot though, but mainboarding negate seems VERY skeptical. You can't really make that out to be a mainboard ancient grudge. Too many creature heavy decks, and not enough control.

Finally I think adding another skithiryx would help as hasting out ooze is the most reliable way to win, and you really don't care about their creatures as you should combo out turn 5ish before they kill you
-1x Go for the Throat
+1x Skithiryx the Blight Dragon

Agreed. 1 is simply too little to be consistently a factor in your combo.

I'm not sure if spellskite should be main deck or not but it really soaks up removal well. I really don't know though, I'll play around with it some more. I still think adding white would help a ton, if just +4x isolated chapel +2x glacial fortress +2x unburial...

If you playtest that with some success, I'd love you forever. I am a doubter at the moment, because I will light fire to any of my lands that impede me from getting double black.

I think the sideboard should include 3/4 mental missteps as RDW and aggro white is a tough matchup

Didn't playtest against them, what besides champ in UWaggro is 1 mana? RDW is a no-brainer though.


If you cockatrice at all, PM me, I'd love to throw some decks against this.
Together but separate, like oatmeal
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
October 21 2011 03:49 GMT
#1754
How does Image kills itself with any of Grimgrin's abilities, or the others?
Get it by your hands...
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
October 21 2011 03:53 GMT
#1755
It shouldn't. No target, no poof?
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
October 21 2011 04:00 GMT
#1756
It doesn't target itself with an ability? I assumed it did, but now that you say it, no one of those abilities say target... well then scratch what I said. Yeah, assumptions are cool
Together but separate, like oatmeal
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
October 21 2011 04:12 GMT
#1757
On October 21 2011 13:00 bumatlarge wrote:
It doesn't target itself with an ability? I assumed it did, but now that you say it, no one of those abilities say target... well then scratch what I said. Yeah, assumptions are cool


Right, I believe it has to literally say "target." "Gaining" an ability isn't a targeting mechanism, I think. Magic has wonky rules. Did you know that if you Journey to Nowhere a morphed card and then the Journey gets Naturalized, that the morphed card comes back face up? Weird.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 06:55:09
October 21 2011 06:50 GMT
#1758
So I made a variant of MBI (could only get my hands on a single lily since out of my entire playgroup only one person had one. Currently replacing lily with tribute to hungers) and I have been having a lot of success with it while testing. One thing that I am absolutely loving is distress. It is just amazing. Lashwrithe also wins games out of nowhere.

One thing I don't get is why vatmothers are in its sideboard. I just don't see any reason to have them when you can run hand of the praetors instead. Every MBI seems to run them in sideboard too which I just find confusing.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
October 21 2011 13:49 GMT
#1759
No point to Hands and Vatmothers actually win games. They can trade with your Hands and if he's not swinging wtf is the point.

Why run Tributes in mono-black? Just play Geth's, you might drag out a counterspell on their turn to stick a Whispering Spectre on your turn 3.
Get it by your hands...
Orpheos
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1663 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 14:22:56
October 21 2011 13:57 GMT
#1760
On October 21 2011 13:12 slyboogie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 13:00 bumatlarge wrote:
It doesn't target itself with an ability? I assumed it did, but now that you say it, no one of those abilities say target... well then scratch what I said. Yeah, assumptions are cool


Right, I believe it has to literally say "target." "Gaining" an ability isn't a targeting mechanism, I think. Magic has wonky rules. Did you know that if you Journey to Nowhere a morphed card and then the Journey gets Naturalized, that the morphed card comes back face up? Weird.


magic really doesnt have wonky rules until you get into layering(humility or a recent example at states is inkmoth+tezzeret interaction). you really just go with what is simplest/most by-the-text interpretation. i think its that too many people try to make "intuitive" assumptions(like your journey example).

and a good rule of thumb for targeting is just look for the word "target". if its not there, there is a good chance there is no targeting.

edit*
something to think about for the journey example. if a creature has +1/+1 counters on it when you journey it, if you are going by the intuitive "flavor" behind journey you would expect the creature to come back with the counters. but no one really expects the game to "save" this kind of previous game state data.

also an interesting watch for people who like magic rules
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/magic-tv-top-8-of-the-week-most-confusing-cards/
i particularly liked the sylvan library bit because i never thought of that interaction with instant speed card draw that pretty much requires you to call a judge over. thankfully wizards has gotten better at wording so things like this dont happen too much anymore.

bonus reading
+ Show Spoiler +
This is the current interaction between Humility and Opalescence: The type-changing effect applies at layer 4, but the rest happens in the applicable layers. The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before it's finished applying. So if Opalescence, Humility, and Worship are on the battlefield and Opalescence entered the battlefield before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments. (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities. (Humility) Layer 7b: Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4. (Opalescence). Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). But if Humility entered the battlefield before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities (Humility). Layer 7b: Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4 (Opalescence).
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